OOTS #1076 - The Discussion Thread

[Matt620]

Counterpoint: They did, and everyone is laying out to you examples as such, and you are retreating into personal attacks-- such as the first sentence in this post.

EDIT: The irony of your lack of self-awareness here is staggering:

No, I'm not certain you read. they were whining at me, calling things "Oh, this is a you-ex-machina because you didn't like Bandana's twists"

I don't want to make it personal. But if people get this heated about a web-comic, then it seems it must be. Practice what you preach, friend.

[Matt620]

Calling "the ship had to drop its weapons to go over the hill they barely passed before" a "plot twist" is as incorrect as calling "a plot twist I didn't think it was sufficiently telegraphed" a "deus ex machina".


The need to dispose of the weapons - which is NOT a plot twist - follows logically from the effort to pass the ridge on the first go plus the extra damage suffered since then.

The only issue is you don't like that the author did not spend an entire page showing crew members chopping or disconnecting the weapon and instead came up with a way to have it happen instantly to save himself the waste of panels.

Edit:

I gave you three examples from the comic. That is not "because I say so", it is "because the story said so".


False, we have seen her listening to her crew and obtaining a resolution both them and her clients were happy with.


I have explained this already. Are you simply going to ignore any bits of my posts that you can't counter by restating the lie over and over again?


There was no temper tantrum, people die in ambushes. She cannot be blamed for an enemy ambush that no-one could possibly see coming.


Sounds to me like you have no leg to stand on and instead rely on personal attacks against me. I have not whined, I have explained to you how you are wrong.

Grey Wolf

Actually, what we saw her do is "kick the can down the road." She did not resolve the issue. If you can't see the difference, there's little I can do to help you.

I saw your post. It did not address the concern at hand. You tried to cherry pick data to satisfy and used nothing to back up your "chain of command" other than your opinion.

No one saw the ambush coming? You must've missed the splash panels, then. Plus, Bandana is the captain, or at least claims to be so. The deaths are on her head, and showcase her incompetence as a captain.

Sounds to me like you think writing long sentences continues reason. It doesn't. A long opinion is still an opinion.

Now, if you want to discuss, we can. But you're going to have to promise to stop whining, resorting to personal attacks like "Matt620-ex-machina" and act respectful. If you can't, just drop the issue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Matt620-ex-machina"

Calling it that is not a personal attack, it is the only way i can think of of clarifying which meaning of the concept we are talking about, because like Jasdoif, I do not agree with your definition of the term, and therefore must establish that we are not talking about the real deus ex machina concept, but the one you use. Naming if after you is a convenience.

Actually, what we saw her do is "kick the can down the road." She did not resolve the issue. If you can't see the difference, there's little I can do to help you.

The trip started. Therefore, the issue of the trip not getting under weigh was resolved.

I saw your post. It did not address the concern at hand. You tried to cherry pick data

You claimed there was no examples of competence from B. I gave you 3. That is not cherry picking, that is answering your challenge.

used nothing to back up your "chain of command" other than your opinion.

I am not going to explain military chain of command to you. Go and read about it. I recommend starting with Starship Troopers, by Robert Henlein, which was extremely well researched. I notice that you have not backed up any of your absolute declarations either, by the way, so nice double standard there.

No one saw the ambush coming? You must've missed the splash panels, then.

Sigh. No-one in comic. If you expect B to be able to realise she is being ambushed because the reader is given advance information, then the claims she is a Mary Sue may have some ground. But she does not.

Plus, Bandana is the captain, or at least claims to be so. The deaths are on her head, and showcase her incompetence as a captain.

She is responsible, but they do not demonstrate incompetence, because it was an ambush.

Sounds to me like you think writing long sentences continues reason.

This is not even a sentence I can understand.

stop whining

I have yet to "whine".

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Well, it wouldn't be a plot twist if was so obvious as to be presupposed....Which would also disqualify it from being a Matt620-ex-machina.

Which I guess might be your point, but then it sounds like you dislike plot twists in general; and that sounds like me misreading your intent.

I think you've got some serious personal issues if you keep attacking me for not liking Rich's plot moves.

The fact of the matter is: Plot twists need foreshadowing. And they need to follow through logically from what happened before. This didn't happen here.

Counterpoint: They did, and everyone is laying out to you examples as such, and you are retreating into personal attacks-- such as the first sentence in this post.

No, I'm not certain you read. they were whining at me, calling things "Oh, this is a you-ex-machina because you didn't like Bandana's twists"

I'm rather certain I called it a "Matt620-ex-machina" because I disagreed with your definition actually constituting a "deus ex machina", so I'm not really sure where you came up with this idea that it has something to do with whether or not you "like Bandana's twists".

[yldenfrei]

Excerpted from TvTropes:

...if the saving force complicates the story afterwards, it's the introduction of a new element.

Might be just me, but crying Deus Ex Machina on an arc that's yet to be fully resolved is rather premature, don't you think?

If one must complain about this event, I suggest calling it an Asspull.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If one must complain about this event, I suggest calling it an Asspull.

And while that does seem closer to what it seems Matt620 meant, let me be clear: it is not. The crowbar-based release is a way to speed up the process of disposing the weapons for the ridge crossing, nothing more. If Rich had not come up with that, the ship would've had more time to get rid of the weapons, and the crew would've been drawn hanging from the sides with screwdrivers, axes, etc. There was never any doubt that they could get rid of the ballistas - this method just serves to demonstrate one last time that B is far more capable of captaining the Mechane than Andi.

And the whole "the Mechane lost its weapons" is the consequence of Andi's actions - which I have to say, if that is all the consequence she faces for mutiny, she got off lightly. The brunt of the consequence will hit B, even though she's the one that got attacked. 6 ballistas at 500 gp a pop means B is now 3000 gp in the hole, before factoring in the other repairs. The crew may walk out of this with a profit, but the Mechane and her captain won't.

Grey Wolf

[georgie_leech]

This is not even a sentence I can understand.

It makes sense if you substitue in 'constitutes,' so my guess is a typo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It makes sense if you substitue in 'constitutes,' so my guess is a typo.

If so, that makes it another ad hominem. Well, glad I didn't even try to make sense of it then.

GW

[Dr.Zero]

Excerpted from TvTropes:


Might be just me, but crying Deus Ex Machina on an arc that's yet to be fully resolved is rather premature, don't you think?

That is a common problem with webcomics, since between the (real, perceived or real and then retconned) deus ex machina some years might pass.

Anyway, technically, a deus ex machina remains the same even if LATER it is shown to have created more problems than the ones solved, as long as it has solved some problems and it has the aforementioned requirements.

If one must complain about this event, I suggest calling it an Asspull.

A-ha. I don't know about schools in USA, but I'm pretty sure that here we have not an equivalent of "asspull" which can be used by students, talking with their teachers, when they analyze a literature work. I'd be interested to know about american students habits, though.

Jokes aside, I do love tvtropes, but maybe we should just stick to something more professional:

https://www.britannica.com/art/deus-ex-machina
Deus ex machina, ( Latin: “god from the machine”) a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...20ex%20machina
2: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

This just for the sake of the discussion about what is a deus ex machina more than about the fact that we have seen a deus ex machina or not.

Edit: it is worth to read even the citation of Ian Watt in the Merriam-Webster, to see an actual, academic use of "deus ex machina".

[Mortsdeer]

Speaking as a dad of 10 year old and soon to be 13 year old girls, I can say with authority that the sick kid, sleep deprived phase is blessedly short.

It's the "boys are interested in them in a way I don't like, and I'm running out of space for the bodies" phase that worries me...



Q

Speaking as the father (on this Father's Day) of, coincidentally, a 10 year old and a 13 year old, though mine happen to be boys - the interests there are running both ways (at least, for the 13 year old) and I'm working hard to teach them enough situational awareness to recognize the look in a father's eye that involves calculations involving back-hoes and the north 40 acres.

[TaHaCelestin]

Dumping the guns overboard is a classic age of sail tactic. Confer Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels for many examples. That series based ALL of its ship combat actions on actual actions recorded in British Royal Navy Admiralty records, with only the conceits of changing names and placing fictional characters aboard historical vessels.

When a sailing ship was being chased and in danger of capture, after changes in sail plan had failed to lead to escape from the chasing ship, the fleeing ship would pump all its water overboard and then dump heavy objects like anchors, boats, excess stores, and finally the heavy guns that made a ship a fighting vessel. It meant losing one's teeth as a fighting vessel, but it could mean the difference between ignominious capture and escape to fight another day. Lightening a ship to escape a chasing ship and lightening to rise over mountains bear an obvious resemblance, and I applaud the Giant for realism.

The difference here is that our airship has mechanisms for instantly loosing its ballistae, as opposed to the historical expedient of manhandling multi-ton iron or brass cannon overboard.

It does seem somewhat weird that any of the crew would not know about such an expedient, but we have an airship that flies according to the dicta of the tropes of romantic derring-do in a d20 fantasy world (presented for the delectation of webcomic and d20 nerds who cannot be assumed to have any knowledge of the age of sail), versus the lived reality of 200-odd years ago.

[mouser9169]

Sorry, but the existence of the ballistas is not a presupposition to them being dropped off because of a little screw.

Of course it's not presupposed, that's a "dramatic reveal". We aren't told every little detail about every little item in the story. If nothing else, that would make a story exceedingly boring.

So, if Bandana had "capable knowledge" why wasn't she using it before? Because she never had it, it was pulled out of nowhere.

So the assumption is that someone named Captain would be incapable until demonstrated otherwise?!?

Julio would not name someone acting Captain who couldn't take care of his baby. When did you ever see Bandana acting in an incompetent manner?

And stating Bandana doesn't come across as entitled? Err...did you read the same comic? Bandana barked all the time about being called "Captain", demanding respect when she hadn't earned it.

When you get a promotion, you get the title that comes with it. Demanding that people show you that respect IS one of the ways you earn it. She isn't Bandana, fellow crewman any more; she's Bandana, the one responsible for their very lives. Allowing them to NOT call her Captain would have been incredibly irresponsible. There is a clear hierarchy on a ship for Very Good Reason (as we've now seen).

[Xyril]

If you can't see the difference, there's little I can do to help you.

Sounds to me like you're excusing Bandana's incompetence, and then whining at me when I call her on it. This is a web-comic. Stop making it personal. Grow up.

No one saw the ambush coming? You must've missed the splash panels, then.

But you're going to have to promise to stop whining, resorting to personal attacks like "Matt620-ex-machina" and act respectful. If you can't, just drop the issue.

I think perhaps it's time for you to step back and take a breath. I can understand why, when you're feeling defensive, you might read text from other people as carrying a disrespectful or insulting tone they didn't intend. I can also understand why, even in the best of circumstances, you might write something not intending any disrespect that comes off as condescending or sarcastic. I'm going to assume that's what's happening here, since I don't really know you, and so I'm going to presume that you're trying to be a decent guy.

You're taking a minority position, so you've got a lot of people disagreeing with you, so maybe that's making you feel more attacked than a reasonable person would feel. I have no other explanation for how an honest, non-hypocritical person would complain about "Matt620-ex-machina" being disrespectful and see nothing insulting about characterizing another person's comments as "whining."

[Dorath]

The little troll won't go away until you stop feeding it.

[Xyril]

The little troll won't go away until you stop feeding it.

I considered the possibility, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, at least for one response. Many of us have gotten too close to an argument, particularly in text, to the point where we're interpreting everything everyone else says in the most offensive way possible, while being blind the the belligerence in our own words. While there are certainly trolls who do so knowingly and deliberately, I'd like to think that most of the time, it's just a case of a normally reasonable person being temporarily driven to Andi-levels of lack of self-awareness, and just need a Bandana to nudge us back (but not literally, because that would be a physical confrontation, which is bad, right?)

[Goblin_Priest]

Dropping the ballistae did make me wonder: why have they not used them at all thus far? Surely shooting down some of the giants would have proved beneficial.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dropping the ballistae did make me wonder: why have they not used them at all thus far? Surely shooting down some of the giants would have proved beneficial.

They did use them.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Anyone still debating whether or not Bandana is a good captain is officially a doofus. So let it be written; so let it be done. She saved Andi's pride, at a minimum, and probably bought undying loyalty by doing so.

Now they are heading back toward the maelstrom of giants and half of the Order. I wonder what's going to happen to Roy's sword?

[Shining Wrath]

I'd bet internet credibility or money but I'm sadly lacking in both. I will wager five hypothetical internet dollars that there's some kind of negative consequence to dropping the artillery beyond no longer having weapons, and that Andi was aware of it and Bandana was not. Possibly related to some kind of hotwiring Andi did since Julio Scoundrel set that up.

Wager accepted. Specifically, I wager $5hypothetical that the ballistas had no function other than those of weapons (setting aside the obvious "tractor beam" function). Also, we have explicit word of Bandana that Andi knows very little about the weaponry.

That's two problems, I think you'll find. And I wish my current problem count was as low as single numbers. Or triple ones, for that matter.

GW

You've got 101 problems, but hemophilia isn't one of them.

Oh lord, I'm about to start experiencing that soon, and that's not something I'm looking forward to. The "sick a lot thing," that is.

Just wait until they start school or pre-school. Kids share all the microbes.

Speaking as a dad of 10 year old and soon to be 13 year old girls, I can say with authority that the sick kid, sleep deprived phase is blessedly short.

It's the "boys are interested in them in a way I don't like, and I'm running out of space for the bodies" phase that worries me...



Q

As a parent of adult children, it never stops. Now it's "you've taken on how much college debt?" and "wait, you are taking 2 months off from work for a honeymoon?".

Nah, for centuries in our world any ship sailing long distances would have had at least a few guns. Lack of any guns at all would actually be more suspicious, wartime or peacetime. That said:



Civilian ships in our world carried guns, often a handful or so 6lbs or a 3lb pivot gun on the stern. Military ships, privateers, and some pirates of comparable size carried many more guns and heavier guns.

The civilian ships simply didn't have the crew or space for the sort of battery a military ship carried (and the real military ships also had much thicker hulls and reinforced decking, partly to deal with the shock of firing those guns).

It's perfectly possible to tell a military ship of the era from a civilian ship by examining the weaponry. If the covered decks are full of cargo space with a handful of small gunports or the guns are all deck guns on the open decks, civilian. If the sides are covered with rows of gunports and the only space for cargo is underwater even in calm seas, warship.

The naval architecture of a warship had to support tons of guns. Remember the Mary Rose, where the king insisted on adding a second gun deck and the maiden voyage she foundered the first time she tried to turn - in full view of the king? Good times, and a reminder about the fallacy of Transfer of Authority. Being good at kingly stuff doesn't mean you know jack squat about building warships.

[Dr.Zero]

Now they are heading back toward the maelstrom of giants

From the fact that the doomsealer joined the frontline and that they were quite calm and clearly not under any kind of danger or attack, specially from thrown rocks, I'd dare to say that almost no giant survived.

Moreover, from the fact that the doomsealer has not even a little scratch, I'd dare to say that, if they met any survivor while searching for the airship, they dispatched them easily. So, yeah, I confirm my thought about no giant survivor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also: Roy, the sword! Grab your sword!

Sounds suspiciously like a Eugene joke.

If your ship is shot down before you can talk to the people who can shoot down your ship, I don't think your charisma score matters much.

Might help with how they treat you as a prisoner.

I'm skeptical that Andi doesn't know about these weapons. She's the chief engineer, you cant possibly tell me that she's never had to fix one of these before.

I both agree and disagree. She's not the Gunner/Weapons Officer, so fixing one is not her remit. But since she's been on this ship a LONG time (since Bandana was a small kid, and she's chief engineer) I'd expect her to know the ship inside and out, to include knowing about "Don't Pull That Lever!" tags or rules on various equipment.

I'll go further and say I see no real ambiguity here. Bandana explicitly says "Weapons ain't your department."

Agreed, but since Andi's s got to repair the whole ship, she has to know "what not to touch" when doing repairs. That she doesn't know the ship inside and out means either that (1) Julio has a crap training/professional development program, or (2) Andi is a tunnel vision engineer who is all into engines and naught else. Both are plausible. (Heck, Julio runs a Charisma inspired operation, so sloppiness is a bit expected).

Because the operation of siege weaponry like catapults and ballista is an engineering job. Heck, the title of people who maintain siege weapons is "siege engineer".

Uh, no, the Gunner/Weapons Officer on the ship is in charge of that stuff. (May also be an engineer, but of a different kind). Navy is a bit different than Army.

Dumping the guns overboard is a classic age of sail tactic. Confer Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels for many examples.

Thanks for saving me the trouble. Aubrey stories: good stuff.

It does seem somewhat weird that any of the crew would not know about such an expedient,

Carol knows, and a few of the three who got cleaved might have known.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hmm....No, ditching the ballistas is not a deus ex machina. Getting the Mechane over the ridge was not an otherwise unsolvable problem; the comic could easily have been written so that tossing the giant corpse/rock/axe overboard was enough. Presumably, depriving the Mechane of its ballistas is intended to enhance the story on some level at some point, and this was a way to see it happening within the current chain of events.

I think that Andi realizing she doesn't know everything about the ship is reason enough.

A-ha. I don't know about schools in USA, but I'm pretty sure that here we have not an equivalent of "asspull" which can be used by students, talking with their teachers, when they analyze a literature work. I'd be interested to know about american students habits, though.

It's generally considered poor form to point out plot holes in the "classic works of literature" we analyze, no matter what terminology we use.

Julio would not name someone acting Captain who couldn't take care of his baby. When did you ever see Bandana acting in an incompetent manner?

When she disagreed with Chief Engineer Andromeda, of course. How incompetent would you have to be to not realize that a chief engineer with few skills outside of engineering (including personal skills) would make a better captain than someone who had grown up on the ship and was being groomed to take Júlio's place?

The naval architecture of a warship had to support tons of guns. Remember the Mary Rose, where the king insisted on adding a second gun deck and the maiden voyage she foundered the first time she tried to turn - in full view of the king? Good times, and a reminder about the fallacy of Transfer of Authority. Being good at kingly stuff doesn't mean you know jack squat about building warships.

He clearly understood that more guns means more better. And for some reason, I'm now imagining Henry VIII as a 40k ork.

[Keltest]

Uh, no, the Gunner/Weapons Officer on the ship is in charge of that stuff. (May also be an engineer, but of a different kind). Navy is a bit different than Army.

Siege weapons fell out of favor on ships compared to cannons hundreds of years before the first recorded use of that title.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Siege weapons fell out of favor on ships compared to cannons hundreds of years before the first recorded use of that title.

Siege weapons also fell out of favour before ships were equipped with mechanical propellers needing maintenance, and yet here we are. As far as I can tell, the moment a ship has engines, it has a dedicated engineer to maintain them. But whether that is true or not in RL, it is the case in the Mechane - and it is also plausible enough that decrying it as breaking disbelief is unwarranted.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

While we're talking about Bandana and Andi having different levels of proficiency and knowledge in various aspects of flying airship officering, we might remember that Rich Burlew does not quite match the combined knowledge of this forum in matters nautical, historical, military, and so on. And even if he did, he's imagining a world where frost giants attack airships whose balloons are filled with helium from the Elemental Plane of Air. The Mechane operates exactly as Rich says it does because he's the only one who knows the details of its construction and operation - which he may, in fact, make up as he goes along, like any proficient Dungeon Master does as required.

This being Julio Scoundrel's ship, it's entirely possible that the "jettison ballistae" levers only appear when they are needed, just in the nick of time, and that's why Andi would never have noticed them. Otherwise anyone aboard the Mechane might notice the levers and pull them as sabotage or stupidity.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This being Julio Scoundrel's ship, it's entirely possible that the "jettison ballistae" levers only appear when they are needed, just in the nick of time, and that's why Andi would never have noticed them. Otherwise anyone aboard the Mechane might notice the levers and pull them as sabotage or stupidity.

I suddenly have this image of some kind of Elan figure accidentally wrecking Júlio's first ship.

[Shining Wrath]

I suddenly have this image of some kind of Elan figure accidentally wrecking Júlio's first ship.

"So, jettisoning the ballistae was a bad thing? Who knew?"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suddenly have this image of some kind of Elan figure accidentally wrecking Júlio's first ship.

FYI, it's Julio. Without the accent. (Reference)

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

FYI, it's Julio. Without the accent. (Reference)

GW

Ah, right. I remembered that there was an accent in Julio Scoundrél, just not where.
...Spanish class was pretty tough for me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah, right. I remembered that there was an accent in Julio Scoundrél, just not where.
...Spanish class was pretty tough for me.

It gets worse. Proper names aren't subject to Spanish grammar rules, so even though Julio doesn't need an accent on the u (it is implied, since it ends in a vowel; you'd only need an accent if the stress syllable was anywhere but the u), there is nothing to stop a Julio from putting it there.

And Scoundrél is not even Spanish ("s+consonant" is not allowed at word start in Spanish), and if it were, say, Escoundrel, it would also not need an accent because, finishing in a consonant other than n or s, the implicit accent is on the final e.

(Not sure why I'm on this thing lately of explaining Spanish grammar rules in the forum)

Grey Wolf