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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    There seems to be some confusion over why Roy is taunting Thog, as well as some people who think Roy should have just jumped out of the way, so maybe I should break this down:

    Thog is dungeoncrashing Roy, an alternate class feature for fighters from Dungeonscape (remember that Thog has two levels of fighter). This allows him to bull rush Roy into a solid object, doing 4d6 points of damage plus twice his Strength bonus (which is very high for a raging half-orc barbarian) to both Roy and the object. This is the same technique Thog used earlier on him in the arena.

    Roy is using his Intimidate skill to taunt Thog into dungeoncrashing him into three specific load-bearing columns, one after another. The rules are that there is no dungeoncrash damage unless the user successfully bull rushes the target. If Roy dodges out of the way, there is no damage to the column and therefore, no way for the roof to collapse. Roy does not have the ability to damage the columns by himself without a weapon, so he is using Thog's special ability against him. Roy is thus willing to take a beating in order to stop Thog, because he does not have the means to stop him otherwise.

    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    There seems to be some confusion over why Roy is taunting Thog, as well as some people who think Roy should have just jumped out of the way, so maybe I should break this down:

    Thog is dungeoncrashing Roy, an alternate class feature for fighters from Dungeonscape (remember that Thog has two levels of fighter). This allows him to bull rush Roy into a solid object, doing 4d6 points of damage plus twice his Strength bonus (which is very high for a raging half-orc barbarian) to both Roy and the object. This is the same technique Thog used earlier on him in the arena.

    Roy is using his Intimidate skill to taunt Thog into dungeoncrashing him into three specific load-bearing columns, one after another. The rules are that there is no dungeoncrash damage unless the user successfully bull rushes the target. If Roy dodges out of the way, there is no damage to the column and therefore, no way for the roof to collapse. Roy does not have the ability to damage the columns by himself without a weapon, so he is using Thog's special ability against him. Roy is thus willing to take a beating in order to stop Thog, because he does not have the means to stop him otherwise.

    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    Thanks for the explanation. It hadn't even occured to me that Thog had Dungeoncrasher.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    There seems to be some confusion over why Roy is taunting Thog, as well as some people who think Roy should have just jumped out of the way, so maybe I should break this down:

    Thog is dungeoncrashing Roy, an alternate class feature for fighters from Dungeonscape (remember that Thog has two levels of fighter). This allows him to bull rush Roy into a solid object, doing 4d6 points of damage plus twice his Strength bonus (which is very high for a raging half-orc barbarian) to both Roy and the object. This is the same technique Thog used earlier on him in the arena.

    Roy is using his Intimidate skill to taunt Thog into dungeoncrashing him into three specific load-bearing columns, one after another. The rules are that there is no dungeoncrash damage unless the user successfully bull rushes the target. If Roy dodges out of the way, there is no damage to the column and therefore, no way for the roof to collapse. Roy does not have the ability to damage the columns by himself without a weapon, so he is using Thog's special ability against him. Roy is thus willing to take a beating in order to stop Thog, because he does not have the means to stop him otherwise.

    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    Ah, that should make things more clear. Though maybe it would have been better to mention that Thog had the dungeoncrashing variant beforehand.

    Yeah, the speech balloon would have been clumsy, but perhaps if, between the panels of Roy looking at Zzdrti getting carried off and coming up with his idea (Where he has the expression), you could have put in a panel of Roy glancing at the columns. I'm just throwing a thought out there though.

  4. - Top - End - #394
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded View Post
    Ah, that should make things more clear. Though maybe it would have been better to mention that Thog had the dungeoncrashing variant beforehand.

    Yeah, the speech balloon would have been clumsy, but perhaps if, between the panels of Roy looking at Zzdrti getting carried off and coming up with his idea (Where he has the expression), you could have put in a panel of Roy glancing at the columns. I'm just throwing a thought out there though.
    I thought it was more important to emphasize Roy seeing Zz'dtri getting carried off, since I had previously established that Roy was going to drag the fight out until the LG were defeated.

    As far as mentioning the dungeoncrashing variant: I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible. An enraged half-orc smashing a person into a wall so hard that the wall breaks is entirely plausible, so it shouldn't matter how it's accomplished "by the rules." Most readers are only peripherally aware of the rules anyway. I did try to figure it out for my own internal consistency, though. Since there are a few people getting hung up on "why didn't Roy do it this way instead?" I thought I would share that.
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    I actually argued that Thog probably didn't have the dungeoncrasher ACL just because The Giant often takes liberties with the rules to make things more interesting.

    Then again, he did help write dungeonscape
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I thought it was more important to emphasize Roy seeing Zz'dtri getting carried off, since I had previously established that Roy was going to drag the fight out until the LG were defeated.

    As far as mentioning the dungeoncrashing variant: I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible. An enraged half-orc smashing a person into a wall so hard that the wall breaks is entirely plausible, so it shouldn't matter how it's accomplished "by the rules." Most readers are only peripherally aware of the rules anyway. I did try to figure it out for my own internal consistency, though. Since there are a few people getting hung up on "why didn't Roy do it this way instead?" I thought I would share that.
    Ah, okay.

    Though the Linear Guild isn't all defeated...

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    That was an extremely worthy update. Thog getting taken out by Roy's direct application of the colosseum itself is about as epic as I could have imagined! Rock on with your bad self, Giant.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    I've never heard of that ability. I just figured he was too messed up to dodge properly. I like it.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    Indeed, please don't write the strip to the lowest common denominator.

    There will always be someone stupider than you can make a strip.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    ......"If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    And here I thought smashing three pillars, resulting in enormous destruction, was yet another tasteless reference to the Wikkit Gate....

  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    WAIT!

    Where is Belkar?
    Big Ups to Vrythas for making my Avi!

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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Toofey View Post
    WAIT!

    Where is Belkar?
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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Roy really must have hit points out the wazoo to survive 12d6 damage plus six times a raging half-orc's Strength bonus when he was hurt to start with!

  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Roy really must have hit points out the wazoo to survive 12d6 damage plus six times a raging half-orc's Strength bonus when he was hurt to start with!
    Having hit points out the wazoo is pretty normal for a mid to high level fighter. Although I am going to guess that Thog didn't have very good luck on his damage rolls.

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Roy really must have hit points out the wazoo to survive 12d6 damage plus six times a raging half-orc's Strength bonus when he was hurt to start with!

    Having hit points out the wazoo is pretty normal for a mid to high level fighter. Although I am going to guess that Thog didn't have very good luck on his damage rolls.
    You know, I´m beggining to think Mr. Burlew doesn´t give a damn about rules, using them as little more than "guidelines" than actual rules (thanks Captain Barbosa) in order to telll us a funny story. Of course it´s only my opinion.
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    You know, I´m beggining to think Mr. Burlew doesn´t give a damn about rules, using them as little more than "guidelines" than actual rules (thanks Captain Barbosa) in order to telll us a funny story. Of course it´s only my opinion.

    That is bordering on THE IMPOSSIBLE and you know that.

  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Giant, I understood the comic correctly the first time without needing clumsy dialogue. And I'm not an expert on D&D by any means - I just thought it was obvious what Roy's plan was given the fact that Thog had similarly crashed Roy into the wall in the arena. Seems both consistent and clear to me.

    So for what its worth, not all your readers were confused...
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  18. - Top - End - #408

    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    There seems to be some confusion over why Roy is taunting Thog, as well as some people who think Roy should have just jumped out of the way, so maybe I should break this down:

    Thog is dungeoncrashing Roy, an alternate class feature for fighters from Dungeonscape (remember that Thog has two levels of fighter). This allows him to bull rush Roy into a solid object, doing 4d6 points of damage plus twice his Strength bonus (which is very high for a raging half-orc barbarian) to both Roy and the object. This is the same technique Thog used earlier on him in the arena.

    Roy is using his Intimidate skill to taunt Thog into dungeoncrashing him into three specific load-bearing columns, one after another. The rules are that there is no dungeoncrash damage unless the user successfully bull rushes the target. If Roy dodges out of the way, there is no damage to the column and therefore, no way for the roof to collapse. Roy does not have the ability to damage the columns by himself without a weapon, so he is using Thog's special ability against him. Roy is thus willing to take a beating in order to stop Thog, because he does not have the means to stop him otherwise.

    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    Ahh, so that's how the whole dungeon crashing works? I'm sorry, I thought he was trying to lure a faster character capable of destroying the pillars into destorying the pillar for him, while unable to effectively move out of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    You know, I´m beggining to think Mr. Burlew doesn´t give a damn about rules, using them as little more than "guidelines" than actual rules (thanks Captain Barbosa) in order to telll us a funny story. Of course it´s only my opinion.
    Seeing all the stuff he put in the gaming articles and all the comics with Miko in them. It's almost like he does follow the rules, but only as a guide, not as something he should be forced to consider for every little thing he ever does. Kinda like how a DM is able to bend certain rules or ban abilities that unbalance the game, they're still following the rules, but they are not the be all and end all of the game. Like they are in videogames.

  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    You know, I´m beggining to think Mr. Burlew doesn´t give a damn about rules, using them as little more than "guidelines" than actual rules (thanks Captain Barbosa) in order to telll us a funny story. Of course it´s only my opinion.
    Yep, he had a high level fighter take rough 12d6 +48 damage and not die. Average is about 90.

    A high level fighter survives 90 HP damage! That could [blatant sarcasm]never happen by the rules[\blatant sarcasm].

    I'm not seeing your evidence for ignoring the rules. I'm really not. Thog has no magic bling, his strength bonus even with rage can't possibly be higher than +9 at his level, and given the comic's general level of optimization could easily be much less.

    The 90 or so damage you'd expect is significant even to a fighter of Roy's level, but depending on rolls (including Roy's HP rolls) it's quite survivable even with substantial prior damage.

    The pillars being broken by that little damage may be unlikely, but they didn't instantly shatter or break, they broke when enough damage had been done to the structure, and Roy mentions his Knowledge skill to spot the right spots to apply the damage.

    DougL

  20. - Top - End - #410
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Actually I figured Roy was doing it intentionally even without knowing about the dungeoncrashing rules because of his facial expression. The flat or angry eyebrows as he's taunting and taking the hits from Thog just made me think it was on purpose, something which made a great deal of sense shortly afterwards.

    Man, really the entire unarmed fight with Thog is just one big example why Roy is my favorite OotS character by a longshot.

  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    As far as mentioning the dungeoncrashing variant: I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible.
    On the other hand, as a rules nerd, I thought this update made the comic even better.
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Thog isn't dead til you see the X's on his eyes...

    Also, I'm not sure the fight is really over. It might be, if the Giant is done using it as a plot point, but it could be that Thog will pop out of the rubble like a daisy and start throwing things.

    I hope the fight is over, because this ending is epic, and I want to see Nale get what's coming to him.
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  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peldor View Post
    Quite possibly my favorite comic of them all. Bravo!

    Good enough to get me to post again after many years!
    I haven't been registered quite as long as you, but I've been out of the game a while too. :)

  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by madtinker View Post
    I hope the fight is over, because this ending is epic, and I want to see Nale get what's coming to him.
    That's another thing. If Thog as a baddie has to die eventually in the story, then isn't it best that he go out in an epic way? And that is certainly what we see here...
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  25. - Top - End - #415
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I thought it was more important to emphasize Roy seeing Zz'dtri getting carried off, since I had previously established that Roy was going to drag the fight out until the LG were defeated.

    As far as mentioning the dungeoncrashing variant: I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible. An enraged half-orc smashing a person into a wall so hard that the wall breaks is entirely plausible, so it shouldn't matter how it's accomplished "by the rules." Most readers are only peripherally aware of the rules anyway. I did try to figure it out for my own internal consistency, though. Since there are a few people getting hung up on "why didn't Roy do it this way instead?" I thought I would share that.
    Giant-

    Your strip is fantastic and perfect. Its generous to the point of being self-martyring for you to say "maybe its my fault" that people mis-read it. Its not. The strip is clear and speaking for myself, a very rules-naive reader, I got Roy's actions instantly. In freshman psychology, I learned the expression "paralysis from analysis" where people who analyze an action they are taking are more likely botch it. So if you go up or down a set of stairs without thinking about every step its easy (my reading of your comic) but focus on the motion of each step walking causes stumbles (some of the forum postings). By creating a pleasant space online and an engrossing comic, I just get caught up in the story. Thanks for that.

  26. - Top - End - #416
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    Giant, I understood the comic correctly the first time without needing clumsy dialogue. And I'm not an expert on D&D by any means - I just thought it was obvious what Roy's plan was given the fact that Thog had similarly crashed Roy into the wall in the arena. Seems both consistent and clear to me.

    So for what its worth, not all your readers were confused...
    Same here, the strip(s) made perfect sense to me, even if I didn't consider Thog having the Dungeoncrasher variant. Maybe it just seems like more people are confused because people generally don't bring up what they have no problem understanding, while confused people will.
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    I think it's interesting that we see a little softer side of Thog here. The whole "Thog Hate? What was Thog saying?". I'm going to be intrigued to see if, when he comes back, he is :Belkar:'s true opposite...a Chaotic Good ( or Neutral maybe?) character in an Evil party.
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypothetical View Post
    I'm going to be intrigued to see if, when he comes back,
    You may want to prepare for disappointment :)
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    Thank you, FujinAkari.
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    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    There seems to be some confusion over why Roy is taunting Thog, as well as some people who think Roy should have just jumped out of the way, so maybe I should break this down:

    Thog is dungeoncrashing Roy, an alternate class feature for fighters from Dungeonscape (remember that Thog has two levels of fighter). This allows him to bull rush Roy into a solid object, doing 4d6 points of damage plus twice his Strength bonus (which is very high for a raging half-orc barbarian) to both Roy and the object. This is the same technique Thog used earlier on him in the arena.

    Roy is using his Intimidate skill to taunt Thog into dungeoncrashing him into three specific load-bearing columns, one after another. The rules are that there is no dungeoncrash damage unless the user successfully bull rushes the target. If Roy dodges out of the way, there is no damage to the column and therefore, no way for the roof to collapse. Roy does not have the ability to damage the columns by himself without a weapon, so he is using Thog's special ability against him. Roy is thus willing to take a beating in order to stop Thog, because he does not have the means to stop him otherwise.

    If you think that Roy was just getting his ass kicked until he got lucky and the roof fell, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what happened. Maybe that's my fault, but I was loathe to put in a clumsy speech balloon like, "If I can just get him to bull rush me into those three columns..."
    No need to apologize. I'm probably one of the more generally versed readers (been playing since the pamphlets, DMing since AD&D), and I while I didn't think of the dungeoncrashing ACF, the gist of the situation was pretty clear.

    Some people will get it, others won't. Heck, everyone will have opinions no matter what, so no need to spell out every detail. Thank you for an awesome webcomic.

    I know all of us who post here, as well as many who don't, adore your work, and are content to argue about it.

    We also appreciate the insight into your process when you do post here, but never should you feel the need to apologize for your actions. It is your stick figure world and we're merely scratches within the scribble peering out at it.

  30. - Top - End - #420
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #808 - The Discussion Thread

    In the end Thog is also a high-level full-BAB class with a lot of Str. Since both were unarmored Thog should be able to hit Roy on basically anything but a natural 1.

    So even if Roy had wanted to dodge, he just wouldn't have been capable anyway.

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