The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

[PId6]

BUT FIRST! An idea that has been Tumbling around in my head for the past few days. The symmetrical part of me dislikes how you get 2 normal techniques and 3 advanced techniques. WHAT IF you got 2 normal, 2 advanced, and then one last expert technique as the last one? I'd need a third level version of each of the techniques, but I'd also be rearranging things to distribute more evenly across three tiers, so it's not as overpowered as it sounds. Thoughts?

It sounds fine, though asymmetry isn't that big a deal since you can always take more basic marksman techniques. But having an even higher level can bring more specialization into it, so that's a plus.

[Thrawn183]

1) I didn't mention this earlier, but you did a nice job trying to eliminate dead levels!

2) Ok, so I started by checking out the metamagic on spell-like abilities: It appears as though a straight classed character will always be able to empower the highest level spell available to them. Quicken takes a little while longer to catch up, but eventually they'll be able to quicken everything except 6th level spells (unless they find a way of getting the feat at 20th level?)

This may be too specific, but you might want to make a ruling on the spell-likes; normally you have access to a specific spell-like ability and the feat only applies to that one only, is that how you would rule for this? After all, there might be plenty of days where you don't actually choose that spell as a spell-like ability.

I don't know how the rules work for applying multiple metamagics to the same spell-like ability, so I'm not even going to go there. I'll just leave it with saying I'm concerned about stacking metamagic on enervation. I personally want to see this as a really cool utility power rather than something that becomes the primary mode of offense.

3) As written, Called Shot is determined per shot. This is a departure from the mechanics of Power Attack where you determine the amount for the entire round. This is highly advantageous because you can take a significant penalty on your first attacks and a small one on your later attacks for much higher damage output. Is this your intent?

4) Hmm... I just realized. All of my DM's have operated under the assumption that stat boosting gear allows you to qualify for feats. This makes archery fairly easy because you only need a.... 19 for improved precise shot. With a +4 item you can qualify with a 15. This is part of why I was expecting people to really start hitting that wisdom score.

5) This is an extension of #4 I guess. I was concerned about the saving throws of the spell-like abilities because essentially all the spells are being heightened to maximum level for free. As an example, starting at 18th level you could cast a quickened baleful polymorph with a saving throw DC of 19+Wis. With a high wisdom score (16 base +4 level +4 inherent +6 item=30) that's a DC 29 Fort save to avoid being baleful polymorphed in addition to a full round attack. You've definitely looked at the issue by limiting the bonii from wisdom to your dexterity modifier, I just felt I should better explain why previously I was so concerned.

6) For picking a spell, do you care if it can be found as a lower level spell on an alternate spell list? An example would be how Disintegrate can be found as a 5th level spell on the duskblade spell list, meaning it could be quickened at 18th level or higher. What about domain spells or PrC spell lists? Basically, anything an archivist can do, this thing can do "lite."

7) I was thinking of a marksman ability called "Star Shot." The Sagittarius concentrates the raw magical power of the stars themselves into her attacks. This is a possible alternative to called shot that get's around the idea of needing precision damage. I don't know if you'd want untyped magical damage, or maybe initially choose an energy type and have the higher level ability turn your attacks into force damage. It would be cool to shoot flaming arrows that were literally fire. Hmmmm.... let me keep thinking about this one and get back to you. I personally think called shot is too strong because the advantages archers have (an extra attack from rapid shot and being able to start with a full-round attack rather than moving to their enemy) make it so that you don't want them to be able to do quite as much damage per shot as a high Str melee'r. Regardless, I'll come up with alternative before harping on this one any more.

Lastly, how do you generate stats at your group? If rolled, would you roll me some stats or tell me what point buy you use? I can throw together a few builds at different levels and test just how they measure up to reasonably CR'd opponents. Eventually we have to actually test this thing or we'll be revising till the sun don't shine.

[Kellus]

Ooh, more feedback!

1) I didn't mention this earlier, but you did a nice job trying to eliminate dead levels!

I hate dead levels.

2) Ok, so I started by checking out the metamagic on spell-like abilities: It appears as though a straight classed character will always be able to empower the highest level spell available to them. Quicken takes a little while longer to catch up, but eventually they'll be able to quicken everything except 6th level spells (unless they find a way of getting the feat at 20th level?)

This may be too specific, but you might want to make a ruling on the spell-likes; normally you have access to a specific spell-like ability and the feat only applies to that one only, is that how you would rule for this? After all, there might be plenty of days where you don't actually choose that spell as a spell-like ability.

I don't know how the rules work for applying multiple metamagics to the same spell-like ability, so I'm not even going to go there. I'll just leave it with saying I'm concerned about stacking metamagic on enervation. I personally want to see this as a really cool utility power rather than something that becomes the primary mode of offense.

I think it would be very simple to stick in a clause saying that you can't use metamagic on concurrence spells.

3) As written, Called Shot is determined per shot. This is a departure from the mechanics of Power Attack where you determine the amount for the entire round. This is highly advantageous because you can take a significant penalty on your first attacks and a small one on your later attacks for much higher damage output. Is this your intent?

It was, actually. Now that I look at it, it might be too powerful. But then, it was also intended to be a primary source of damage for the class. I believe I shall compromise. You get to keep the modifications on the fly, but it drops down to 1:1 as the first version, but a 2:1 if you take the hardest shot. The upgraded version gets 3:1 to begin with, and 4:1 for the hardest shot. Fair compromise? I say yes.

4) Hmm... I just realized. All of my DM's have operated under the assumption that stat boosting gear allows you to qualify for feats. This makes archery fairly easy because you only need a.... 19 for improved precise shot. With a +4 item you can qualify with a 15. This is part of why I was expecting people to really start hitting that wisdom score.

I don't think you can do that, but I guess I might be wrong. I certainly don't have a ruels quote to back it up. In any case, Dex has been made more important now, so I think you can rest easy on that count.

5) This is an extension of #4 I guess. I was concerned about the saving throws of the spell-like abilities because essentially all the spells are being heightened to maximum level for free. As an example, starting at 18th level you could cast a quickened baleful polymorph with a saving throw DC of 19+Wis. With a high wisdom score (16 base +4 level +4 inherent +6 item=30) that's a DC 29 Fort save to avoid being baleful polymorphed in addition to a full round attack. You've definitely looked at the issue by limiting the bonii from wisdom to your dexterity modifier, I just felt I should better explain why previously I was so concerned.

I've already changed the DC, it's now 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier.

6) For picking a spell, do you care if it can be found as a lower level spell on an alternate spell list? An example would be how Disintegrate can be found as a 5th level spell on the duskblade spell list, meaning it could be quickened at 18th level or higher. What about domain spells or PrC spell lists? Basically, anything an archivist can do, this thing can do "lite."

I've also changed the spell lists. Now you pick from the assassin, bard, druid, ranger, and wizard classes. I've hesitant on wizard, but some of the best utility spells are in there.

7) I was thinking of a marksman ability called "Star Shot." The Sagittarius concentrates the raw magical power of the stars themselves into her attacks. This is a possible alternative to called shot that get's around the idea of needing precision damage. I don't know if you'd want untyped magical damage, or maybe initially choose an energy type and have the higher level ability turn your attacks into force damage. It would be cool to shoot flaming arrows that were literally fire. Hmmmm.... let me keep thinking about this one and get back to you. I personally think called shot is too strong because the advantages archers have (an extra attack from rapid shot and being able to start with a full-round attack rather than moving to their enemy) make it so that you don't want them to be able to do quite as much damage per shot as a high Str melee'r. Regardless, I'll come up with alternative before harping on this one any more.

Em... I'm not sure. The marskman techniques are mostly mundane, because they respresent the actual archery skill the sagittarius has accumulated (with the possible exception of Master of Serendipity). It's a neat idea, but I think it's better represented with actual magic arrows, which you can already take Master Fletcher to be able to craft.

Lastly, how do you generate stats at your group? If rolled, would you roll me some stats or tell me what point buy you use? I can throw together a few builds at different levels and test just how they measure up to reasonably CR'd opponents. Eventually we have to actually test this thing or we'll be revising till the sun don't shine.

We mostly roll, but have done PB as well. For what it's worth, I have two sagittarii already built up to show you–

Pharith, a 5th level sagittarius made by PId6.
Alenna Rose, a 1st level sagittarius made by me! The latter, at least, was made with rolls and not point buy.

For the convenience of PId6 and anyybody else using this class, here's a grand list of the changes I made–

• Elusive Target and Serendipitous Shot now grant a bonus of 1/level up to your Dex. This hits me but not Pharith, ironically.
• Concurrences can now be used up to 1/day per class level, which hits only me as well.
•*Concurrences have a save DC of 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier, and have a smaller spell list to choose from. You also can't use metamagic with them.
• Assassin's Shot, advanced CCS, advanced Horizon Eye, and advanced Patient Hunter now use Dexterity in their calaculations. Called Shot also now has a Dex check against HD to deal precision damage to anatomy-less enemies. It also does less damage, as described above (1:1 or 2:1, then 3:1 or 4:1).

I think that's everything? I'm still working on expert techniques, but I'll put them up for review before mucking everything in the first post up by sticking them in. The biggest hit is to low-level sagittarii, who quite frankly were too strong. Once you hit around level 5 and up (specifically, when your class level equals your Wis) almost nothing has changed. As far as I'm concerned, once they hit high levels, they need all the help they can get against full spellcasters and ToBlers.

Thanks for the critique! I really appreciate the comments!

(Also, @PId6– I'm honored you like the class enough to try it!)

[PId6]

Pharith, a 5th level sagittarius made by PId6.
Alenna Rose, a 1st level sagittarius made by PId6. The latter, at least, was made with rolls and not point buy.

Copy/paste?

• Elusive Target and Serendipitous Shot now grant a bonus of 1/level up to your Dex. This hits me but not Pharith, ironically.

Last minute twinkling FTW! Pharith was actually built around Wisdom before I saw the changes. So you're definitely right here, Dexterity has become the most important stat. Getting a bit more MAD but at least now I won't have to worry about buying tomes in order to qualify for archery feats.

(Also, @PId6– I'm honored you like the class enough to try it!)

No problem! I just hope the DM will be nice enough not to use Protection from Arrows or Wind Wall to completely render me useless too much.