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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Meh, that comic should have had a Chris Hemsworth reference at the end because he was the title character in Thor

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    It isn't. That's not the point.
    But… you just said it was one! I mean, literally, in you last post, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    I believe they do qualify as DE's
    I mean, the only sense I can make out of that is that you're saying it's a Deus Ex Machina if it helps the villians overcome a problem (and, as a side note, that's bad terminology, as I mentioned before. Deus Ex Machina help the heros or move the plot along, while Diabolous Ex Machina helps the villains), regardless of whether or not the method they used to do so is a Deus Ex Machina.

    Is that right?
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2011-09-20 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    It doesn't matter what you think of the wand itself or how it targets what Durkon had been working on countering or how Durkon's spell fizzled. It still isn't a deus ex. That term explicitly refers to intractable problems solved by unknown devices. "We can't fight a caster" isn't intractable. They can just run. Having the wand doesn't "solve the problem" it just makes them think they might be able to win this fight.

    Why does everyone love this term so much? There is no little deus ex. If you're calling it a little deus ex it isn't a deus ex. The term demands salvation from nowhere. Hence the God reference in the name. Nale and Sabine didn't even need saving.
    Last edited by Scrynor; 2011-09-20 at 01:09 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.
    Just say: inventory

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoug View Post
    Something is very fishy here.

    Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

    Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:

    1)the Directors: the imp already warned Sabine to back off from the fight, as he believes the Linear Guild cannot win this, and the Directors obviously need them alive for some reason, as is implied in their last conversation.

    2)Malack. Ok, I have no real evidence to support the following, but something is definitely off about him. He is not seen in the arena, so he could be lurking anywhere, and being buddy-buddy with Durkon all this time could be a ploy to learn Durkon's spells and develop a strategy on how to sabotage them effectively. What doesn't fit is that he probably wouldn't work for the Linear Guild (except to advance some unrelated plan -possibly Tarquin's?).

    If we follow the logic of TV-Tropes and some metagaming, Malack would be a Checkhov's gunman, waiting to strike and reveal the whole subplot of the arc. Tarquin is no fool and has his people everywhere around.
    Simple: In-comic, Mass Death Ward isn't a normal spell. Durkon just researched it. Therefore, the angels and Thor wouldn't know the spell off-hand, so pronunciation matters a lot more. You can tell what someone's saying a lot better if you have a good idea of the possibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
    Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
    Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters.
    These really aren't analogous to the strip. It's perfectly reasonable for Nale to have a magic wand, given his level and the fact that we know he was going to buy magic items the last we saw him. It even makes sense for him to have that wand--we can easily imagine him seeing Sabine drain people's levels and thinking of them both draining enemies until they are reduced to impotent weaklings. Your examples are dissimilar in that they do not flow naturally from what we know of the plots and characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Your complaint might have more merit if we were near the end of the story.
    I also might, if I were you, choose a better literary example than, Lord of the "I can't figure out a way to end my story that rings* true to what I have already established, so I'll have a character slip and fall into lava while dancing about and end the main plot line that way" Rings.
    Spoilered for Mooncat, I guess.

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    I don't actually find the scene with Gollum to be all that bad. I see it as illustrating how all-consuming his desire for the Ring was--once he gets it, the rush of finally filling his obsession/addiction again is so strong that he forgets everything else, including the most basic of safety concerns. He dies because his whole being became caught up in something external, his corruption entire and complete.

    Now, The Hobbit on the other hand... man, that ending was bad.

    "Oh, how will we ever repair this rift between Thorin and Bilbo and make peace with everybody?"

    "Guys, guys, the Necromancer is attacking with an army of goblins! We have to put aside our differences and band together!"

    "Yay, everything is better now!"

    Sheesh...
    HUMANS....... ARE....... SUPERIORRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Yes, the Giant himself admitted, he didn't know for sure this spell would exist :)
    By the way, Durkon couldn't even cast this level 8 spell after level drained.
    So his fail was entirely in character.
    Also the wand of enervation was nothing like a divine intervention.
    And i don't see how a fight against a group of level appropriate enemies would be less intense. If it was easy, there wouldn't be any fun in the comic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    "Cleric's Feather Fall" made me laugh out loud for the first time today.

    Awesome.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    But… you just said it was one! I mean, literally, in you last post, you said:



    I mean, the only sense I can make out of that is that you're saying it's a Deus Ex Machina if it helps the villians overcome a problem (and, as a side note, that's bad terminology, as I mentioned before. Deus Ex Machina help the heros or move the plot along, while Diabolous Ex Machina helps the villains), regardless of whether or not the method they used to do so is a Deus Ex Machina.

    Is that right?
    Not much. Firstly, there's no "diabolous ex machina".
    "Deus" doesn't equal good nor bad, in ancient and common literature it's simply seen as an "act of god" which forwards the plot or solves an entangled situation.
    It has no side, they're all "Deus Ex Machina".
    Maybe you were confusing it with the trope, dunno.. but if so, I'm hoping you didn't believe that the term "Deus Ex Machina" was simply born out of Tvtropes

    Secondly, what I said is that the situation is a Deus Ex, not Nale's ability of carrying wands.
    Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
    in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
    Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
    And that would be missing the point.

    Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
    But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
    What are the odds?
    The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
    It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoug View Post
    Something is very fishy here.

    Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

    Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:
    [snip]
    The much more likely explanation is that since Durkon researched it (since it isn't in core), the angels don't recognize it. Durkon mentions his research specifically in the previous comic (805) - and Roy asked for the spell a hundred and thirty-four strips ago.

    Those two would have the capability to pull that, but I think they would've been shown doing something to interfere had that happened.
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrynor View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think of the wand itself or how it targets what Durkon had been working on countering or how Durkon's spell fizzled. It still isn't a deus ex. That term explicitly refers to intractable problems solved by unknown devices. "We can't fight a caster" isn't intractable. They can just run. Having the wand doesn't "solve the problem" it just makes them think they might be able to win this fight.

    Why does everyone love this term so much? There is no little deus ex. If you're calling it a little deus ex it isn't a deus ex. The term demands salvation from nowhere. Hence the God reference in the name. Nale and Sabine didn't even need saving.
    "Utter salvation" isn't required, nor the situation needs to be hopeless for a DE to exist.
    What the the term actually means is "God from the Machine", whose iteration means a situation where a problem is solved through external, arbitrary means (in this case, manipulating the odds).

    Edit: besides, "We can't fight a cleric like this" IS an intractable problem.
    The fact that they could run away doesn't change the impossibility of engaging into the fight, which the wand fixes.
    Last edited by Mantine; 2011-09-20 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
    in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
    Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
    And that would be missing the point.

    Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
    But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
    What are the odds?
    The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
    It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.
    That isn't right. The Odyssey is a Deus Ex because his whole goal is to get to his wife and she's surrounded by his enemies. The problem is intractable. Then Athena completely solves it even though she hasn't been around helping out all this time. Intractable followed by out-of-nowhere resolution.

    Nale and Sabine are fighting them because of confusion. They could just leave. They aren't in a corner, they aren't hurt. They could still win. Magic items are well established in the story. Nale had actively gone shopping for them. Not out of nowhere. The wand doesn't just make Durkon disappear. It just helps but doesn't resolve.

    What you are objecting to is a string on convenient coincidences. It is not a deus ex. Deus ex is a very explicit term that does not fit this situation.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    "Utter salvation" isn't required, nor the situation needs to be hopeless for a DE to exist.
    Welp, I'm tapping out if we're not agreeing on the definition. Yes, intractability is required and yes, resolution is required.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    A partial unrelated question: is every issue commentary a collection of unstoppable mass-guessing and/or rulelawing?
    Yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Vectner View Post
    Great strip, glad to see Durkon back. If I were Durkon, I might start looking for a more attentive god.
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    Well, Malak is right there to convert him with his attentive Gods (Gods of death and destruction). So if he dies and gets rewarded for his conversion with 2nd life he could very well become a missionary sent to convert his homeland. It would fit the prophecy.
    That theory rightly belongs in the guessing thread, and is likely there in some form. But I refuse to go there because when I have tried in the past I developed a desire to gouge my eyes out.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.
    The "stretch" is the possibility of it happening. Something is called a stretch because it requires you to reach for an explanation that is not easily at hand, like a person stretching to reach the top shelf.

    However, the explanation here is easily reachable by anyone: Nale has a history of carefully planning his attacks to match his enemies' strengths and weaknesses. He went to a store and bought a wand. He picked a wand that he could use and that complimented the existing powers of his girlfriend. Done. Easy. No stretching required. If the average reader can see something and completely understand how or why it happened, even if it happened off-panel and isn't discussed, then it's not a stretch. The fact that he chose well just means he's good at choosing.

    Ultimately, I think everyone understands what you are saying. It's just that what you are saying is wrong. It's not even remotely in the same class as your Athena example, and you seem to be the only one who thinks it is. The wand is not external, because it has been explicitly explained that Nale went shopping for magic items. The wand is not arbitrary, because it is within his price range and it makes sense that he would pick something evil and effective. The wand is not solving the problem, because the damn fight is not over yet. So if it's not external, not arbitrary, and not solving the problem, it cannot be a Deus Ex Machina.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?
    Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
    How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ?

    I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
    "Oh no, we're ****ed"
    "Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.
    Last edited by Mantine; 2011-09-20 at 02:24 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    A lot of this Deus Ex Machina stuff (and I'm not necessarily picking on anyone in particular, as this seems to come up a LOT lately) boils down to "I expected the strip to happen this way and it happened another way I didn't expect so blah." A lot of people (including me, I'll add) expected Durkon to come in and save the day right of the bat with his new spell and unstoning Haley. This is a new development but isn't unwelcome to me, because now I want to see how Durkon and Elan get out of this. Just because what you were thinking was going to happen didn't happen doesn't make it a deus ex machina.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?
    I understood that dialogue as being there to remind the readers that Nale is a spellcaster. I think the last time that was mentioned was way back in the very early strips so I get why it was repeated. Doesn't make this a deus ex machina.
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2011-09-20 at 02:27 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    Didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this?"
    Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
    No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

    You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

    Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?

    In that case, it doesn't really make much sense to use Enervation on him, does it? Nale could only hope that Durkon doesn't have Restoration prepared ...

    Oh, wait, I see it now: casting Restoration apparently takes three rounds, so it isn't a quick counter. OK. (Answered my own question, but perhaps others are wondering, too.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this?"
    Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
    How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ?

    I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
    "Oh no, we're ****ed"
    "Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.
    Who says they're out of the woods yet? Durkon lost a powerful spell that could get rid of Sabine, but the battle's far from over. There's a good chance they still can't take on the cleric. An actual solution to the Durkon problem would be something like Nale pulling a similarly leveled Druid out of a pokeball.
    Last edited by AgentofOdd; 2011-09-20 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    You're confusing "Deus ex machina" with "not being told all of a character's precise strengths and weaknesses in spreadsheet form before the fight".
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?
    Not too sure about it myself, but the rules seem to say Durkon would get back the spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    "A spellcaster loses one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses." "This loss persists until the negative level is removed."
    Last edited by AgentofOdd; 2011-09-20 at 02:37 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

    You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

    Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.
    Mmmh, guess that's it then.
    I took Sabine's assessment as your way of communicating us the two team's current balance of strenght (which in my view the wand arbitrarily changed), but if instead that was just her personal opinion (like in, they could've won even without the wand), then the whole perspective of it changes.
    Fine, I'm convinced.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    was just her personal opinion (like in, they could've won even without the wand)
    That isn't what he said. He said she didn't take the wand into her estimation. Not that they could've won without it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    I took Sabine's assessment as your way of communicating us the two team's current balance of strenght
    No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

    So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    It's a nice to have generally useful wand. Nale planned on fighting OotS, which somehow he figured out in his massive intellect contained 1 or more casters. This falls more under the category of weapons and tools than contrivances. Their wizard prepared far more specifically and it's still not unusual.
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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    That isn't what he said. He said she didn't take the wand into her estimation. Not that they could've won without it.
    If both were just opinions and their accuracy non guaranteed, then Sabine's statement "we can't win like this" may have been false, and consequently they may have been able to win even without the wand, somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

    So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.
    Yes, good at that, I'm convinced.

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

    OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.
    Rich Burlew


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  29. - Top - End - #209
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ThePhantasm's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    If both were just opinions and their accuracy non guaranteed, then Sabine's statement "we can't win like this" may have been false, and consequently they may have been able to win even without the wand, somehow.
    He said her opinion was false for a specific reason. She didn't take into account the wand.

    Just saying.
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

    The Index of the Giant's Comments | Thanks, Bradakhan, for the avatar!

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

    [self-scrubbed]

    Let sleeping dogs lie, I shall.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2011-09-20 at 03:27 PM.

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