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2016-08-17, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
BTW, I am seriously interested in the mentions made here of bronze being an important material in armor and weapons about a thousand years into the Iron Age.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
If you're drawing heavily on the Hellenistic era, Paul Elliot's Warlords of Alexander is a useful source to draw upon.
That's not really true even of the Classical period in the east or the steppe. Composite bows are common there, it's only the west that had underpowered self bows.
Slings are certainly popular in the west, and with a cast bullet, rather than pebble or stone, can outrange western bows.
Again, not really true of the Hellenistic era being drawn upon. While the hoplite panoply is the heavy standard, there's still scale and lamellar thoraxes, as well as textile armour for the torso. Any of which can be supplemented with greaves. Add a helmet and shield (almost everyone had these two) and you're set.
Note the shield is the most important defensive item in this period, not armour. With a helmet and body shield, you're pretty well covered as well as being mobile.
Mail is common among Celtic nobles and beginning to appear more widely. You're right that mass-produced mail didn't appear til later in the Roman era.
True, as are javelins. Lots of line infantry had javelins to throw before melee contact - something inspired by the Celts who used it very effectively.
Once more, not true of the Hellenistic era. Once the treasuries of Persia had been looted, ther was a lot more coinage around. Gold devalued from being worth 27 times as much as silver to 10 times as much, because there was so much of it washing around. Persian money (especially gold darics) were a common way for mercenaries to be paid, and the Greek currency (silver owls, etc) were close to a common currency. Along with bars of silver/gold for trading volumes of transaction. Though many more advanced states would have used a credit system to spare the risk of pirates carrying off your wealth.Last edited by Kiero; 2016-08-18 at 03:04 AM.
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-18, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Of course it was; the notion bronze is "inferior" to low-grade iron is a gamer myth. Well-worked bronze is as good as low-grade iron but is about 10% heavier. That's it. And it's easier to make large plates with, not to mention being a superior material for ship's rams.
Iron is cheap and plentiful, that's the advantage it has. Because to make bronze you need tin, which is rare (and thus expensive).
Furthermore, you don't throw away perfectly serviceable armour just because new, cheap iron armour is around. The "hand me down" effect with panoplies shouldn't be underestimated.
That happened long before the Hellenistic era; by 300BC the chariot was basically irrelevant in warfare. Chariots-as-cavalry are a bronze age thing, primarily, not iron age. By the iron age where they exist at all (Britain, limited parts of what is now Austria and northern Italy, selected areas of Romania) they're "battle taxis" that carry a noble to the fight, where he can dismount, fight and re-mount to get out again.
By the Hellenistic era, horses are more than big enough to carry a man in armour. Even if they were, for the most part, smaller than the horses of the medieval era.
Precisely, heavy cavalry was all over the place in the Hellenistic era, you don't need the stirrup to charge home, all it provides is side-to-side stability that is useful (but not essential) for archery and standing melee. The Nisaean horse was a famous, large, eastern breed (now extinct) that overtopped western horses according to the literature of the period.
Frontal charges into formed infantry were not a thing; they charged into the rear of an engaged formation, or drove off lighter cavalry. Hammer and anvil; pin the infantry down at the front with your infantry, charge your cavalry into their rear/flanks. While the Thessalians and Makedonian Companions were famed in the west, it's the east where all the real heavies were. The Persians had many Iranian peoples to draw upon here, not to mention the heavy cavalry fielded by the nobles of the steppe.Last edited by Kiero; 2016-08-18 at 04:51 AM.
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-18, 04:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I suspect you're talking more about the Classical than Hellenistic era for the most part.
That first sword you describe is a xiphos, not a kopis. Kopis and machaira are basically interchangeable terms for curved/forward-weighted choppers. That triangular sword you describe is a late Hellenistic machaira (no idea why it's called a machaira, but apparently it is).
You've left out Celtic-inspired swords, which look pretty much the way you'd expect a medieval sword to, though their hilts are different. And Iberian swords which look like a hybrid of xiphos and Celtic longsword.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-18, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I didn't mean to patronise- I'm sure the author would be first to say that techniques like this have been 'invented' independently by a lot of different gaming groups going back to the early days of the hobby. So nothing revolutionary in that sense, just a how-to guide for the uninitiated.
My own exposure to Vampire is limited, but I was personally struck by the potential richness of the quasi-fuedal setting and plot-hooks during chargen, and I'm glad you wrung value out of those. However, the impression I get is that most groups' play was firmly in the 'story before' category- e.g, the GM preps plot and the players prep PCs largely in isolation from eachother, and welding them together happens later (or might not happen at all.)
Maybe that has something to do with 'setting vs. PC disconnect', and given you're investing a lot of thought in this setting, I'd hate to see that under-appreciated.
I will say I've always found the term 'sandbox' to be faintly derogatory, though, since it kind of implies a very safe, passive environment that patiently awaits sculpting by PC agency, rather than an inhabited, simulated world. We need a better name for the latter.
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2016-08-18, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Mail is common among Celtic nobles and beginning to appear more widely. You're right that mass-produced mail didn't appear til later in the Roman era
To my knowledge the earliest find of mail is still the weapon deposit at Hjortsping on Als C14dated to 350calBC (so in the 4th century). How many were found is uncertain as preservation was terrible and they were excavated in 1920'ies so they are now lost. The original author suggest 10-12 or so, but that is likely very exagerated (its based on the area where rings were found, but they were scattered).
A discussion can be found here.
Though that ignores that the earliest is found in the northern area, and that it is likely that the lack of mail to the north and west could be due to lack of evidence (no pictoral evidence and different grave contexts). The Celts in the east were "foreign" overlords or invaders, and thus where more heavily militarised than those in the west.
So for a 'classic' (Greek etc) PC mail could be made 'exotic' and great loot (if the GM so wished).
It should also be noted that there is very little to separate 'Celtic' and 'Germanian' material culture in the 4th century BC (there are more differences within each group). These really develop later (around the 1st century BC).
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2016-08-18, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
The la tene swords (which I assume you mean when referring to Celtic swords) are considerably wider and less pointy than medieval counterparts:
And here are some swords found together with the early mail at Hjortspring (and many Celtic shields as well as spearheads, a boat and more items):
These are thus also 4th century and possibly made in a Celtic oppidum in somewhere in Europe.
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2016-08-18, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
All true, but this is many 100s of years after the "end" of the bronze age, and I have read that loss of access to tin sources was a big factor in the collapse of the bronze age material culture of the near east and Mediterranean. I would have thought that the lack of new bronze being made, and the effects of time, would have seen bronze armor gone.
And yet here I am reading up on the Macedonian forces, and while they largely didn't use metal body armor per these sources, when they did, it was usually bronze ("muscle cuirras", greaves, helmet, some other possible pieces). Per same, there's indication from art and artifacts that they could make iron in large enough plates to make the same sorts of armor, but it would have been the province of the extremely elite or wealthy.
I do recall that good bronze is better than bad iron.
What's your thought on the idea of cloth and heavy hide armors in common use, bronze armor for those who can afford it, and good iron / early steel in use for elite and exotic armors?
Again, you're correct, and I was confused -- I did a lot of research on the pre-Roman peoples of Britain and Ireland for a friend's RPG project, and it continues to blur my mental timeline of the chariot even all these years later.
I think some sources may overstate the impact/importance of the stirrup...Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-08-18 at 11:38 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-18, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Do you think it would be workable and fun as part of an RPG setting?
One thing I would not do is fall back on the standard RPG trick of making cloth armor or heavy hide-based armor into something only the destitute and desperate wear -- having seen several tests on these types of armor, they appear to be quite protective, and I assume that if they didn't provide much protection, no one would have bothered spending time and money on them, marching around with them, wearing them in the blazing heat, etc.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Well in "Northern Europe", the Bronze Age dosnt end before 500BC. So only a few centuries later (and the period 900-500BC is the Bronze riches period). And Bronze was still imported and used frequently for a few centuries.
I really doubt the "collapse" of Bronze trade theory for the introduction of Iron. As if it collapsed you would also see the effect on areas with no natural Bronze sources (neither tin or copper) such as Denmark. Also Iron was first used among the elite, then spread out, so the whatever qualities they were looking for they found iron preferable (perhaps weight?). If you dont have DnD fighters high carrying capacity an armour weight reduction of 10-20% might come in handy.
And yet here I am reading up on the Macedonian forces, and while they largely didn't use metal body armor per these sources, when they did, it was usually bronze ("muscle cuirras", greaves, helmet, some other possible pieces). Per same, there's indication from art and artifacts that they could make iron in large enough plates to make the same sorts of armor, but it would have been the province of the extremely elite or wealthy.
For example Denmark have many bog Iron sources, but the first certain evidence of them being exploited are 200BC, and the major peiod of extraction is 1-550AD (and then again in the 12-14th century AD). They first have to get a good working on the process, the fuel use etc.
Its true that we see a partial collapse of some of the copper mines, but in general I think Iron won in a fair competition.
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2016-08-18, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I think it looks good.
One thing I would not do is fall back on the standard RPG trick of making cloth armor or heavy hide-based armor into something only the destitute and desperate wear -- having seen several tests on these types of armor, they appear to be quite protective, and I assume that if they didn't provide much protection, no one would have bothered spending time and money on them, marching around with them, wearing them in the blazing heat, etc.
As far as protection: as you note it must have offered enough to make it worthwhile, but on the other hand if it offered enough they wouldn't have made armour out of more expensive bronze or iron.
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2016-08-18, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I think the production techniques and quality are going to make a big difference. The UWGB team working on recreating linothorax armor seems to have found a working build.
https://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/MASTER...RAX%20copy.movIt is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Well the video dosn't show how powerfull the bow is... (in fact it gives no information on any variables)
I found a poster on the webside and it seem to be a 25lb bow.... the arrow is also very big and bulky (thus not for penetration).
The poster have a 60lb bow penetrating 60mm at 25feet and above 30mm at 50feet (for the 11 layer authentic patch, I assume they still use with the bulky arrow).
They alwso have pictures of (clearly) untrained people 'hitting' the armour with various objects (presumably weapons) on their homepage.
For a experimental archaeologist trial this is really horrible.... Its like something from the 1970'ies.
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2016-08-18, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I'll try to find the videos I saw, I didn't realize that wasn't the same one. (That's what I get for posting from work.)
EDIT -- and either way, what might a good balance between the needs of a game, the needs of a compelling setting, and historical accuracy be on something like the linothorax?Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-08-18 at 04:03 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I happen to have a number of historians on tap, through my work on Europa Barbarorum II, and got this from one of them:
Originally Posted by Power2the1
The thureos is the other innovation often attributed to the Celts, the oval/lozenge-shaped body shield that offers a good trade-off between protection and mobility compared to the pelte or aspis.
Originally Posted by Power2the1
That's a really misleading extrapolation of the finds, it implies that Celtic and Germanian material cultures were both producing the same sorts of things. Which wasn't the case, as I understand it. Rather resource-poor Germania adopted a lot of Celtic material culture, as indeed did lots of other peoples who came into contact with the Celts.
EDIT: As I've been informed:
Originally Posted by Brennus
I was simplifying; unlike a xiphos or kopis, for example, they look the way someone familiar with medieval swords would expect one to look.
As mentioned, I think it's exaggerated. Usage of bronze continued extensively into the iron age in Europe, for armour plates, helmets and lots besides.
Something I think you're missing out on here are the sociological changes to the nature of military service in the Hellenistic era. Your average classical hoplite was a farmer who probably worked his land himself, or at least shared the labour with his slaves. Fighting was a summer-time activity, where he and his peers would gather up their panoplies, sons/nephews/cousins and retainers, and march off to fight some battles before returning home for the harvest. A heavy panoply enhanced his changes of surviving the clash of bronze and getting home safe, and besides he didn't have to take it far, nor worry about the weight of it when not fighting (since he had servants/slaves for that)
By contrast the Makedonian tenant levied to war by Philip and others could be mobilised for years on end and might never return home, instead settling on spear-won lands or turning to mercenary work. When you are expected to lug all your gear around yourself (because slaves/servants are extra mouths to feed on campaign) and spend most of your time patrolling and raiding, rather than fighting pitched battles, having a full bronze panoply is more of a liability than asset. Not to mention how much more care it takes to maintain.
Furthermore, there was a general lightening of panoplies in the era anyway. For lighter sorts of troops, only a shield and helmet was an absolute necessity to be able to content in melee, mobility around the field being better protection.
A great deal, and armchair historians that many gamers are seize upon this as some sort of immutable truth, that without stirrups you can't have useful cavalry.
Yeah, don't do this, given as above it isn't even a realistic reflection of why people make the armour choices they do.
To be honest, the amount linen armour protects from arrows is an irrelevant test for the period. You didn't wear body armour to protect you from arrows, that's what your shield and helmet were for. Body armour was to protect you from spears and swords.Last edited by Kiero; 2016-08-19 at 06:21 AM.
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-18, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Thinking about it more... in a way, wouldn't the "lighter" arrow test be more representative of the arrow striking from a typical range, when compared to the "100 pound bow, arrow from 5 paces" test often seen in these things?
Maybe not -- just wondering on that.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-18, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Ah! That is the thing.
I expect it will depend a lot on the system, and whether the difference between the armor types is the critical factor in survival, or at least whether the players perceive it to be the critical factor and get angsty when they cannot find any bronze breastplates and iron greatswords.
As for the quality of the armor, I agree completely.
Perhaps if you looked at some Late Renaissance material for inspiration on making cloth armor more appealing than metal armor? After all, what sort of swashbuckling musketeer wanders around in a heavy breastplate when a buffcoat is not merely better suited to acrobatics, but also much more stylish!
At the least, any sort of metal armor should make people suspect the PCs are nobles, which invites jealous plots, and if they are revealed to just be lucky commoners the thieves should come hunting to make the PCs "share".
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2016-08-19, 04:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I think there's a far more important issue that hasn't been addressed here; how are you handling retainers/servants/slaves? The classic PC party of a handful of unaccompanied heroes would look very out of place. No one would take them seriously, since they'd just look like a collection of vagabonds or bandits. People of substance have followers.
Also, to bring the discussion about material cultures into useability here, the way Celtic material culture was prized by other peoples who came into contact with them is a neat touch you could apply in your game. Have one culture's goods so valued by others that they are an almost universal way of the aristocracy demonstrating how rich, powerful and cultured they are. For the Celts it was pottery, metalwork of all kinds, weapons and armour. But it could be absolutely anything.
As I said, it's largely irrelevant. You have a shield to protect you from arrows, even a composite bow firing at near-point-blank isn't going to go through a bronze-faced aspis.
I think reality already does what we need here; try lugging a full bronze panoply around on an extended basis, and keeping it in decent condition. Furthermore, if you have proper rules for encumbrance and particularly heat fatigue, people will see the benefit of not cladding themselves in metal under the hot sun.Last edited by Kiero; 2016-08-19 at 06:23 AM.
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-19, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Something to keep in mind is that I'm not strictly trying to emulate the culture and technology of any one place or people in the world at this time. The conversation seems to be drifting that way, maybe. India, China, and other places are fair game here, for example.
It is not my intention to create "expys" of specific real-world cultures or nations.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-19, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-19, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-19, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2016-08-19, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I think it makes bloody sense if you don't take it too literally. It's easier to pick up skills at an early age and growing up in a family that values a certain skill and where the necessary training equipment and competent teachers (e.g. your father or grandfather) are available for free.
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2016-08-19, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2016-08-19, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
I don't have the individual states worked out in detail, because I want to bounce more stuff off potential players if it gets that far, and then go back.
Economically, there will be different food and material crops to trade based on each state's position along the north-south axis. There will be different mineral resources as well. It's possible that there will be different secret "techniques" jealously guarded by the craftspeople of different states, not sure yet. So, there will be a lot of trade up and down the length of the region along the coast and on the one major trade road.
The political structure will be as complicated as I can reasonably make it while still remaining functional. There's a lot of public works, flood control, fresh water supply, drainage, irrigation control, etc that need to be administered and maintained, so there's a place for a strong ruling figure in most of the cities, but the temples are also strong, and a lot of trade to enrich merchants tangentially to those other power bases, plus maybe some cities have councils of the powerful citizens who are risky to ignore even if you're the "king".
Religion is multilayered and multidimensional. There's animism and ancestor worship, which is very personal and local and diverse, but some spirits are more equal than others; famous ancestors and the spirits of renowned places and things benefit from a feedback loop of fame, veneration, and power. There are local and clan and "profession" deities, who blur the lines with the "ancestors" who were mythical heroes and city founders and inventors of great things and so on. And then there are universal deities who are revered across the entire region (if not world, hmmm...) and have broad multifaceted spheres of "interest". Most people pay homage to local spirits and family ancestors, and to whichever deity they need to attract or divert the "attention" of at the present moment. There will also be both priests and "lay devotees" of the individual deities and "big spirits".
The deities are not "good" or "evil" the way many RPG settings present them, but rather most of them represent concepts and things that are valued and considered important and good by human beings and human culture, but can be very dangerous when taken to extremes (for example, both freedom and order can be dangerous when pushed to extremes).
Cutting across those layers, there are a various ideologies and cults, some of which are considered blasphemous and heretical by the established priesthoods and therefore by many of the kings and oligarchs. There are also the shattered, scattered remnants of the veneration of the older primordial "chaos gods" who were according to the in-setting mythology were very alien and often acted without regard to human values or concerns, before being defeated by the more anthropomorphic deities of the current faith(s).
I can go into more detail if someone wants, reveal some "secret history" in spoiler boxes.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-08-23 at 10:43 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-19, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-08-19, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
On Stirrups. It is important to remember that much of the stuff said about what is possible with vs without stirrups is bubkips; what stirrups do is make a bevy of option far easier. A classic lance charge of middle ages fame being one of the only points where can/cannot comes into play. So really things that take skill to pull off in whatever base game you are drawing from just increase the penalties. Also ban things that require tossing your whole wieght around (for example DnD feats like Power attack, Cleave etc-perhaps require special mounted versions if you think appropriate)
On bronze: a couple key things about bronze. Tin Bronze (vs alum-bronze or arsenic bronze-whose creation was prone to purity and ratio issues) wass generally better than most iron for a substantial period of time. But it had lots of flaws. It was expensive due to issues of needing too import tin (which is in large part why Britain stayed with bronze the major tin ore came as black cornish crystals) but also social ones-the iron sword could be made more locally, and as such linked with things such as gift giving, pledging/declaring allies or group identity, also the steel swords the nobles would usually come from the same workshops as the iron ones (which came later-on the boarders of your timeline) etc. Also bronze had great advantages over iron in many non-military uses (jewerly, saltworks, etc) and it made more sense to spend the bronze supply on these. Also very few places had bronze when they needed it-the more raided your trade routes the less bronze was available which makes a poor weapon source. So while on a pure mechanical standpoint bronze weaponry was usually better than iron it was far worse in terms of social and economic factors. Steel knocks it out completely though.
On gems-far fewer cuts were common-mostly polished hemispheres and beveled rectangles
On time period. One of the reasons I think this discussion may be focusing on a particular time/place is that you are aiming at a tech level and having given a place. Other places didn't necessarily have the desired teech level at the same time. So if it is tech level you want to hold consistent looking at the earlier Sahel and West African Nations could be useful. Places like Timbuktu and Benin were well into "middle ages" tech in some fields but their predecessors could have lots of good work to deal with.
Also as much as you might dislike the cliche the warring states period seems about right in terms of tech as well. Swords becoming a thing for example. Also some amazing bronzework done in what was then not China south of Qin (today dead center of china).
Two other groups worth taking a look at and ripping off at the desired tech level would be the Kush (very Egyptian influenced but different enough to be fresh) and Ethiopians.
Will write more when I get home and have map/timeline/library access.Last edited by sktarq; 2016-08-19 at 06:25 PM.
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2016-08-19, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Gamer myth, this is not true. Makedonian Companions and plenty of others managed proper charges without stirrups.
Stirrups provide side-to-side stability in the saddle, not front-to-back stability. This benefits horseback archery (more stable platform) and standing melee.Wushu Open Reloaded
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2016-08-19, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to -- 4th century BCE setting
Really the issue is partly the massive saddle associated with classic knights that goes halfway up the back and the associated heavy lance. Plus while aiming a lance charge the impact will not be strait back- stirrups also help torsion and keeping yourself centered while aiming.
Again it is a matter of degree of difficulty and a stabbing lance vs a charging one. When knights mostly disappeared cavalry still existed for centuries and still charged-that it wwas a reversion to an older kind of charge and that those charges were what was referenced in pre knightly texts is the idea.
Not every charge is a lance charge in the way we think of them from the knightly era. Charges that use swords are still charges.
And it is not just gamers-I've known several non-gamer riders (quarter horse competition types) who have issues with that version of the maneuver (though a minority said it may be possibility-which is why I said it was an contentious issue)Last edited by sktarq; 2016-08-19 at 09:23 PM.