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2018-01-12, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Even better, make the skill system "gestalt" (and make sure you use the term as much as possible) and force the player to put together several of the skills for every single action they need to take. Oh, and make levels in each skill affect the levels in other skills so that when one changes, the rest also change. If they aren't taking three or more passes through their character sheet when they level, you aren't trying hard enough.
Avatar credit to Shades of Gray
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2018-01-12, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Ok, let me get this straight - you need to own fistfulls of multiple dice types, and record the results of your massive exploding rolls vs similarly horrible opposed rolls? You monster.
I will say, this mechanic seems to remove the bias of weighted coins / dice. Although a d100 that always rolls 42 will always win...
Ah, yes, the "mother may I" add this and this and this and this fiddly bit...
While I wait on the horrifying results, what's SaWo?
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2018-01-12, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2018-01-12, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
That's pretty good, but let's go one step beyond and make the player calculate their own DC based off of which skills are rolled. So if you need to use skill A and skill B for a task, you would base the DC on the bonuses each of those skills give you. That way, no matter what you do to increase those bonuses, you'll never actually get better at anything. Oh, and the higher your skill bonuses, the more other skills you need to add to the skill roll.
Just because.Avatar credit to Shades of Gray
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2018-01-12, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
The Savage Worlds game system.
Similar to the earlier Earthdawn game system, this system uses dice instead of skill ranks. So a rookie skill would be 1d4, while a proven crack uses 1d12 for it. Now it also uses an "exploding dice" mechanic and mostly fixed target numbers, so do the math and you'll find the flaw here, as itīs often better to be "lucky than good".
Combine that with an Aspect-based system like FATE, but with the rolls governing how "true" the aspects work.
What you get is your "Quertus" being a tactical genius out of sheer luck (Small Unit Tactics 1d4) with pretty lackluster performance as an actual archmage (Arcana 1d12+2).
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2018-01-12, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-12, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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2018-01-12, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
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2018-01-12, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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2018-01-12, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Good or interesting games can have very bad rules too. Let's make a horrible cocktail:
Enforce random generation of race and class with glaring disparities between the good and bad options, and no "consolation prize" or point-buy equivalent to balance things - so one player gets to play a Noble Superior Magical Elf of Doom with Demon Lackeys and Killer Looks, and another at the same table a One Legged, One Armed Halfling Beggar with Scurvy. Inspiration: Stormbringer
(For bonus points, some character options aren't just weaker, but have glaringly obvious built-in flaws, like a race so vulnerable to magic that has to roll a saving throw whenever is exposed to any kind of magic effect, to avoid being transformed into non sentient jelly. This of course in a world littered with magic and naturally occurring magical phenomena. Inspiration: the animal people from Feng Shui 2)
Combine this with some PvP undertones like you get xp only for killing monsters, and xp is not split among the party, but awarded entirely to the character dealing the killing blow. Inspiration: Diablo 1
Add some sprinkles of misery like an incredibly slow experience progression and completely nonviable character paths (which, again, you didn't pick, but were given to you randomly at creation). Inspiration: Chtulutech
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2018-01-12, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
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- toulouse
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
thank you. i may like exploding dice, but i'm kind of cursed with awesome with them. outside of d100, i'll rage quit and i know it. that said, i can't imagine a clunkier mechanic than what i've come up with for something that should objectively be clean, pretty, reliable, and fast.
star wars: edge of the empire kind of did that dice pool vs dice pool thing, but had a hard cap at 6 dice (and routinely used 4 or less). it may've been a bit clunky, but seeing how you only had 3 results possible, it was fast to roll.
some kind of cthulu system however does use multiple dice to resolve actions in a way that makes dnd seem fluid and easy to grasp. the inspiration came from there. i can't remember the system, since a friend homebrewed an scp intrigue with it, but yeah: d100 + accuracy bonus to hit, d20 for proficiency, opposed to a d100 dodge, add to that a d12 for a shotgun blast, plus d6 or d4 extra for the part hit (based on armor worn). it's kind of intuitive but it's slow.
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2018-01-13, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
d% dive pools. Imagine having to colour code 8+ sets of d% just so you can count successes.
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2018-01-13, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Have this kind of dice rolling be used only for a certain sub-system, and have this sub-system be grossly overpowered compared to the rest of the game.
Have a sidebar calling out that the pain in the neck necessary to use the sub-system is designed as the balancing factor.
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2018-01-13, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
That could be fun. The d% is too convenient though, and can be made tricky. As for how:
Essentially a d100, d1000, d10000 or whatever is made by setting each die as a base, and using d10s matches up with the standard base 10. Technically this isn't necessary - you could use d8s with a base 8 system, and reading in base eight using 2d8 get a d64.
Where this gets really fun is in that base not needing to be constant. As long as the base in use for a given die is represented by the previous die, you can cover the whole range, which superficially looks pretty in a way the d66 (which is actually a d36 which sporadically covers some numbers in the 11-66 range) doesn't.
Now, using a wide variety of polyhedrals is fun, right? D&D, Cortex, Savage Worlds, they all seem to think so. So we'll take the common set of the d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20. Stringing all of them together makes a d460800, which can generate all of the numbers from 1 to 460800.
Specifically, you have (1d4-1)*115200+(1d6-1)*19200+(1d8-1)*2400*(1d10-1)*240+(1d12-1)*20+1d20, where all max numbers counts as 460800 instead of zeros.
Then you use these as a dice pool system, where you change the difficulty by changing both the number of successes needed, and the number you need to succeed, which can vary from 2 to 460800.
EDIT: It wouldn't be that hard to mix exploding dice into there at every step, for extra fun.Last edited by Knaight; 2018-01-13 at 03:17 AM.
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2018-01-13, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
I think you mean all zeroes (or all natural 1s), right?
Doesn't this have the problem that success or failure will usually have been decided by one of the first dice rolls, so if you use it in a dice pool system as proposed, most of the rolls will get "early exited"?
Another route might be to combine this with something like the skill checks from Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye rather than dice pools. So you get to roll d460800 for a roll-under attribute check, then repeat the process however many times (DSA always sets it at three, but we can always be more creative than that), each time either succeeding or expending a number of skill points to convert the outcome to a success.
Of course, that still permits early exit. I think Trail of Cthulhu has a mechanic where you expend skill points, but they stay expended for more than one skill check instead of getting them all back the next time you use the same skill.
So we'll impose a skill point cost on a success in one of the attribute checks, equal to the natural result of the dice roll, with an additional skill point cost to modify the result if needed, and invent a suitably fun mechanic for determining how many expended skill points you get back at the end.
This ensures that the entire result is always important for all checks, even where a binary success/failure check would be appropriate, thus ensuring that players cannot optimise all the fun out.
I remember hearing that that was a Synnibar thing: https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/...rev_4762.phtmlLast edited by lesser_minion; 2018-01-13 at 04:50 PM.
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2018-01-13, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
I do mean all 1s, yes. It's the minimum that's supposed to loop.
Also you roll it backwards, from d20 down. There's no early exit here.
I do like the DSA technique though, particularly because having skills in the hundreds of thousands has the potential to be amazing. As for getting those skill points back, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a roll between current and max skill d460800 every time you use the skill, where if you succeed you set remaining skill points to the new roll, and if you fail you ignore it.
Now, as for how you get those skills originally - something like just splitting 50 million points between skills seems too straightforward. I'm thinking a life path system, where each life path corresponds to a month of the character's life.Last edited by Knaight; 2018-01-13 at 04:52 PM.
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2018-01-13, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
An entire month? Surely we spills be going hour by hour, inflicting penalties for not spending enough hours asleep.
I suppose if we want this playable we should go day by day, with the choice to focus on working hard, relaxing, or mixing the two. Or maybe each day has three slots, and you start to penalties to take rolls if you don't make one of the periods sleep.
As another one, a magic system where magical power is tied directly to the number of legitimate children you have. Bastards actively subtract from power until legitimised. Power gain or loss begins at the moment of conception and increases in a linear fashion until birth.
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2018-01-13, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Apart from the larger numbers, that's not too far from the full version of Ars Magica 5th edition's character creation, where you have to decide every season what you did and what the consequences were. Can we work the curse of the pink dot in as well, once we get to the magic/mecha/whatever system?
Last edited by lesser_minion; 2018-01-13 at 05:41 PM.
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2018-01-13, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Instead, how about giving separate speed, strength, angles of rotation and dexterity values for each joint? Some people have stronger right arms than left, or vice versa, and leg stats should affect speed and balance more than arm stats. If someone has lost a finger, they need to compensate when using a bow. Isn't this system supposed to simulationist??
When you make a specific stat check, where the stat has value N, you role 1dN. So if you've got a Intelligence of 12, you role 1d12. If you've got a Charisma of 20, you role 1d20. It sounds perfect! And when you have a wisdom of 17, you role 1d17!The battle cry of a true master is "RAW!!!"
I play Devil's Advocate. Why does a devil need an advocate? Because only bad lawyers go to hell. The good ones find a loophole.
5e Homebrew: Firearms through the ages / Academian class / Misc. Spells
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2018-01-13, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
So, Synnibar had a mechanic where you roll a d100 to determine what the percentage chance of something happening would be. How about rolling a die to determine how many sides the die you roll to get the actual outcome should have?
So instead of rolling 1dN for your stat check, make it N - 1d(1dN). If you've got a Charisma of 20, your charisma check is 20 - 1d(1d20), so if you roll a 13 on your d20, then you roll 20-1d13 for your check; and if you roll a 9 then you get to roll 20-1d9.
Although interestingly, this could be used legitimately, at least if you're rolling your dice electronically -- 1d(d12) can produce any result that a d12 could produce, but the expected value is only 3.75 (half that of a d14).
Also, dice with weird numbers of sides aren't impossible or unheard of -- Wikipedia says that 34-sided dice are an actual thing, as are "rolling pin dice".Last edited by lesser_minion; 2018-01-13 at 07:07 PM.
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2018-01-13, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2017
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
I'd say that any RPG mechanic that relies on the player extruding regular polygons at the table is a bad RPG mechanic. The idea isn't bad in and of itself, but it basically requires electronic dice rolling.
How about a real time tabletop RPG system, where players can announce actions and rolls simultaneously, while the GM determines results dynamically! We can finally be free of the tyranny of turns and artificial action restraints.The battle cry of a true master is "RAW!!!"
I play Devil's Advocate. Why does a devil need an advocate? Because only bad lawyers go to hell. The good ones find a loophole.
5e Homebrew: Firearms through the ages / Academian class / Misc. Spells
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2018-01-13, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Well, you'd presumably have them all sorted out in advance, just like any other die type (aside from being a pain in the arse to procure). In addition to extruding regular polygons, the tricks we used to make d10s will actually work for almost any other number, in theory at least.
But you're right that this sort of mechanic is probably best left to the machines.
How about a real time tabletop RPG system, where players can announce actions and rolls simultaneously, while the GM determines results dynamically! We can finally be free of the tyranny of turns and artificial action restraints.
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2018-01-13, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- In the playground
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Am I late to the party Richter?
Spoiler: Spoilered for Inappropriate Content (just kidding)
3.0 psionics attack and defense modes for everyone (except the boss encounters who get them for free, but we don't want players accidentally missing out on the fun by choosing a monster with a level adjustment do we?).Last edited by gooddragon1; 2018-01-13 at 07:29 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2018-01-14, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Y'all are taking this thread even more seriously than I expected. I'm amazed by the efforts I've seen here.
I'm mildly confused by your intent. I'm now imagining a separate minigame of overly complex rock scissors paper to determine who gets advantage in any given situation, replayed on a round-by-round basis.
And, if this uses a finite resource, it discourages the PCs from interacting with the environment too much, else they run out of resources to spend.
It subtly forces the players to stay on the rails, and just let the GM read the story to them.
But what had you meant to do with this mechanic?
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2018-01-14, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Given That this was a luck roll, would it be wrong of me to point out that a die that always rolled 69 meant you always got lucky?
Can't say I'm a fan of that resolution mechanic. Especially when you put it that way.
... How are fixed DCs a problem?
Yes, random life path generating your skills is the way to go. But how about adding in a complex skill system, where you don't actually learn the skills unless you meet the prereqs, to properly simulate how different people don't always take away the same thing from a given event?
So, huge patriarchal families of incestuous polygamy become the magical ruling class? Who implement Prima Nocta, of course.
And what is the curse of the pink dot?
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2018-01-14, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
I think that if you want something to be truly awful, you have to make it look like a game that someone might actually want to play, and then disappoint them (this was the design philosophy behind the doombringer champion). So rolling 1d10000 for the size of some body part you'd rather not think of is far too obvious. Mechanics need to look good on paper but actually fail in practice - for example, skill systems that don't define what "Easy" or "Hard" means well enough to use, leading to massive arguments in play that don't look like the game designer's fault.
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2018-01-14, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
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2018-01-14, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
Using the "dice step" mechanic to represent skill, when not having a talent that gives a static bonus, a roll will always generate a range of results starting with a "1". Even at the high epic skill level of 1d12+2, you still have a chance to fail at the standard DC of 4.
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2018-01-14, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
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2018-01-14, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
- Location
- Bristol, UK
Re: Worst RPG mechanics - combine them into something worse!
The curse of the pink dot is a theoretical exploit under the 5th edition Ars Magica rules for magic resistance. Basically, you could cast any spell on an enemy's weapon and it would have the side effect of making all attacks with the weapon bounce off of your magic resistance, even though such a side effect is actually more effective than most curses you could attempt to apply to the weapon. There's a FAQ discussing it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20071227...arma_loopholes (interestingly, it looks like they knowingly included this because they suspected that a different formulation of the magic resistance rules could result in worse).
If we're bringing up questionable mechanics from Ars Magica, there's also 4th edition encumbrance rules, which were so crippling that a knight could actually be at his most dangerous and hardest to kill while stripped naked and armed with a stick.
If we also need catastrophic flaws that fly under the radar, as suggested by Jormengand, both of these are actually pretty decent candidates -- +12 to soak at the cost of -6 to initiative, attack, defence, and combat fatigue sounds better if you haven't realised that the defence penalty, in addition to meaning that you get hit way more often, means that you'll take an extra six points of damage from any attack that would have still hit you without the armour.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2018-01-14 at 04:37 PM.