The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

[Hecuba]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the "inability to change the setting" indicates that no matter what the PCs do, they ultimately have no effect. I mean, that certainly can be the case, but that would be a choice of the DM, not an aspect of the setting. What the stability of the setting does is make it so that a PC can't make such grand sweeping changes easily through exploitation of the rules. They have to actually work at it, have adventures...play the game, rather than play the system.

While a certain amount of player-induced change is necessary, there are limits if you're concerned with the internal consistency of a setting. If a level 15 character can fundamentally an vastly alter geopolitics to their favor, then why were geopolitics in that state to begin with? There are a limited number of ways to deal with this:

1. There haven't been any significant number of level 15 equivalent beings. (In this case, who are the players fighting?)
2. All prior and other current 15+ beings are incompetent or uninterested in geopolitical power.
3. They don't, because there are enough sufficiently more powerful beings in the setting to prevent the level 15 beings from doing so

Most settings take the last options, which then begs the question of why that significant a number of 15+ characters hasn't fundamentally changed society in any of a huge number of ways (i.e. Teleportation).

[Lord_Gareth]

Nothing that can defend an entire city, much less an entire nation. At least not for a price that even begins to approach reasonable.

I haven't yet caught up to the thread (reading it now), but upon seeing this I felt compelled to ask: what about Halaster's teleport cage, from Expedition to Undermountain? It takes for-freaking-ever to set up, but blocks teleportation pretty comprehensively, in or out.

[Quellian-dyrae]

While a certain amount of player-induced change is necessary, there are limits if you're concerned with the internal consistency of a setting. If a level 15 character can fundamentally an vastly alter geopolitics to their favor, then why were geopolitics in that state to begin with? There are a limited number of ways to deal with this:

1. There haven't been any significant number of level 15 equivalent beings. (In this case, who are the players fighting?)
2. All prior and other current 15+ beings are incompetent or uninterested in geopolitical power.
3. They don't, because there are enough sufficiently more powerful beings in the setting to prevent the level 15 beings from doing so

Most settings take the last options, which then begs the question of why that significant a number of 15+ characters hasn't fundamentally changed society in any of a huge number of ways (i.e. Teleportation).

Right. That's what I was basically getting at, that when one says the TV limits the ability of players to change the setting, it means they can't just use the D&D rules to utterly change the setting (possibly as a standard action).

I was just pointing out that that doesn't mean that the setting automatically nullifies the things the PCs accomplish through the game. PCs in the Tippyverse would still have just as many opportunities to be great heroes and leave the setting changed through their quests and adventures as they would in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, or wherever else.

[Hecuba]

I haven't yet caught up to the thread (reading it now), but upon seeing this I felt compelled to ask: what about Halaster's teleport cage, from Expedition to Undermountain? It takes for-freaking-ever to set up, but blocks teleportation pretty comprehensively, in or out.

That's actually the most efficient option available, IIRC. Ultimately however, it's still bypassed by an equal level spell (wish) and subsequently (or even contingently) brought down with a dispel. Moreover, without knowing where insertion will happen, you can't reply fast enough to prevent further insertion.

And finally, because overlapping and adjacent iterations of that spell explicitly merge to a single ongoing effect, I believe one targeted dispel magic ends the whole deal. (I'd actually have to double check this- I recall the wording for the interaction of an area dispel with ongoing effects being limited to the area, I can't recall the precise interaction of a targeted dispel and an ongoing spell).

Generalized, the problem isn't that teleport defenses don't exist. But, because that the because of the precision and range of teleportation in 3.5, any large scale teleportation defense must be more effective than the spells it defends against. Instead, every defense can be bypassed by a well prepared equal-level caster.

[Man on Fire]

It sounds to me like you personally dislike several of the basic premises of the setting. That's fine, but it's impossible for that to translate into meaningful critique; attempting to do so boils down to "Your idea is stupid, here's how you should completely change your conception." This is radically different from critiquing other aspects of the setting, which are usually derived from the premises in some way, because there it's less about subjective personal preference and more about the internal logic of the setting.

If you don't like a premise, take it out in your own game, and see how the setting changes. Or just, y'know, don't use the setting. Don't just come into an explanation thread and say "Oh yeah, this is terrible, I don't like the basic idea here" — that's rude and doesn't help anyone. What would probably work better is to start a new thread with your ideas of how to modify the Tippyverse, and work from there.

"Don't like, don't read" much? Sorry, but in RPGs the premise is the basis, the most important thing that drags people into the game. Here? Here the premise is "the same old only everything you do doesn't matter". Why should anybody want to play that? If the premise is flawed and uninteresting then it should be changed and entire setting should be changed with it.

You're joking right? The ability for the players to radically change the world is the absolute worst thing that an RPG can have; and the Tippyverse's overall stability is one of its best features. The only way that could be better was if it was an already established setting; that way there would already be important characters to do things and ensure that the players stay out of the story at large. Knowing that there is a good chance you will mess up the careful balance of a setting makes for miserable players, miserable DMs, and deeply unpleasant games; and if you keep it up too long you end with World of Warcraft's expansions.

Maybe, as long as it is minor and ultimately unimportant. You can still have interesting stories without any lasting effect though, and obviously ability to influence the world as a whole and gameplay are totally unrelated.

Of course they're different things, that's the whole point. The world should be essentially the same when the game starts and when it ends, unless one of the actually important people, which is not and never will be the players, changes it. For example, one of my favorite RPGs is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I don't go into it thinking I'm going to kill Archaon or save the Empire from Orcs, I know perfectly well that at most I might play a minor part in a greater plot and not die horribly in the process. That's whats great about it, you can have your fun and be involved in a perfectly interesting, if small scale, story and know that when you're done the setting won't be noticably different from when you started.

However, this is getting off topic; so why don't you respond to this and we'll leave it at that?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't disparage people's personal preferences. I somewhat lost my temper because Man on Fire was coming off so strong about stable settings being bad and snapped at him; but now I've taken a few minutes to calm down and acknowledge that your way of playing is perfectly legitimate as long as you are willing to do the same for mine.

If it wasn't for that apology, I would give you pretty angry rant.
Listen, I understand that some people just want from the setting a backstory for dungeoncrawls, a setting they know, where nothing ever changes but it's full of fun NPCs that are cool and if you try hard then one day you may be as cool as them. I understand that some players just care about pimping their characters, showing of all their cool gear and stuff. I know that some players like peace and stability of status quo, that they want the world in which they know what to expect.

I'm not one of them.

For me the best fun in the game is to see how my character affect the world, how he changes his surroundings. If I want to kill Drizzt, then I don't want DM to pull things out of his anus to save his stupid drow buttlocks only because it would change the setting too much. Going against estabilished canon can sometime give great results, see this story - they completely wretched the setting but it was probably one of the best, most epic games I ever heard about. Sure, going against things all the time is wrong but the possibility should be there because it may lead to amazing story. Tippyverse removes that, nothing that players will do will matter because next teleporting war will snip it away.

The Players in the TV can effect things: they can try and make a new city. Find some ancient artifact. Defend their city and strike back in a war. Stop some growing dead magic zone.

Hell, they could even create one, dooming the world.

City gets destroyed by teleporting army from another city and Tippy himself said it's impossible to defend from teleporting army. Dead magic zones aren't anything wizards couldn't handle. And what use is ancient artifact? If I cannot use it to have some impact on the world, it's just another decoration, it has no more appeal than in any other setting. There are no plot hooks or concepts players may hold to, there are no threats for them to overcome, it has nothing other games doesn't have except for a little bit more of realism. Look at published D&D settings:
* Greyhawk is the setting that gives you generic fantasy, he was there first and for that reason he wanted to give people what most of them wanted.
* Dark Sun gives you destroyed, dying world in which your players must fight to survive, asking the question how far your heroes are willing to go.
* Planescape gives you this amazing, bizarre city that's unlike anything that exist in the D&D, with all those crazy races and beings and planes to explore, having strong proto new weird feeling.
* Thieves World and Lankhmar allow you to play in worlds of popular series of books.
* Spelljammer combines fantasy and science-fiction
* Mystara gives you sky pirates
* Ravenloft and Masque of Red Death are horror games in typical middle ages or in Victoria-Era-esque worlds

What does Tippyverse gives to you? Nothing Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Dragolance don't. Only in Forgotten Realms I at least have Drizzt to kill to become most wanted criminal, while in Tippyverse my story won't be even sang by travelling bards in inns because conventional means of travel are dead and there are no inns.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the "inability to change the setting" indicates that no matter what the PCs do, they ultimately have no effect. I mean, that certainly can be the case, but that would be a choice of the DM, not an aspect of the setting. What the stability of the setting does is make it so that a PC can't make such grand sweeping changes easily through exploitation of the rules. They have to actually work at it, have adventures...play the game, rather than play the system.

But making those sweeping changes is also a chance of making interesting story. Good example would be The Squirt Gun Wars quite fun story that started when players explored the rules to do something very insane. I see no appeal in the game where I know there are things my character is not allowed to do only because it would break estabilished canon, it breaks the illusion.

[demigodus]

Sure, going against things all the time is wrong but the possibility should be there because it may lead to amazing story. Tippyverse removes that, nothing that players will do will matter because next teleporting war will snip it away.

I realize I probably shouldn't cherry pick, but responding to your entire post would take forever, and this does more or less seem to summerize your problems with the Tippyverse. If I'm wrong about that, sorry.

Anyways, the Tippyverse doesn't remove your idea to change the setting. It just makes it ridiculously hard. It makes it so that if you want your characters to have an exceptional effect on the setting, they have to be exceptional. PCs not auto-succeeding on rewriting the entire campaign setting is not a bad thing really.

If the campaign setting is held together by DM fiat, or defined powers that so far surpass the PCs it might as well be DM fiat, I can understand that being a problem. However, if the campaign setting is kept consistent/constant because of NPCs with similar powers to the PCs simply acting intelligently, that isn't a problem. In such a case, the standard for changing the setting is out-witting the person who wrote the setting. It gives the PCs a nice challenge if they want to rewrite the landscape, and gives them an internally consistent world to work in that they won't accidentally change/crash/wreck if they just want to operate in it.

[Andorax]

It seems as if one of the rules to participate in this thread is to either express awe at how amazing Emperor Tippy is or else try and find a reason why the rules don't mean what he says they mean and the whole thing "doesn't work".

Not that I'm unimpressed, by any stretch, but I'd rather try an obligatory attempt at poking a hole. According to Basic postulate #1, "all Epic magic" does not exist. According to the ELH, any magical item with a market price of over 200,000 GP is by definition an Epic magic item. As such, while Teleport Circles remain, and some of the lesser traps (food and water for instance), some of the higher-end items, including the wish-traps, are illegal by the very rules of the Tippyverse itself.


Ok, with that out of the way...


Rise and Fall of the Tippyverse


One of the fundamental laws of western civilization (generally speaking) is that one needs to be a productive member of society in order to enjoy the full benefits of same. Hopefully, you can generally agree with this premise without seriously digressing the discussion in this thread.

One of the issues I'm seeing with the Tippyverse as described is that it is providing all the "necessities of life" in essentially unlimited supply from the 1st level NPC's point of view. Food, water, shelter and clothing all provided. Protection in the form of an unassailable, indestructable, and (presumably) infallable police force...backed, when necessary, with all manner of divinative and compulsion magics. It would seem, then, that the Tippyverse has the underlying structure to create practical, functional Socialism.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see, eventually, a move towards globalization of the City society. With so much mobility, the Cities would eventually tend towards a single entity.

So then we turn to science fiction, and ask the question of how the Tippyverse will turn out. Will it tend towards Benevolent Socialism (idealized in Star Trek's Federation, where the removal of economic incentive leads to the "challenge to improve oneself" as the driving motivation of human nature)? Let's see..transporters, replicators...sounds promising, if you've an optimistic view of human and demihuman nature.

Or will it move towards an unmotivated, lazy, self-centered society, Selfish Socialism, that eventually is unable to produce the kind of high-level powerful individuals necessary to sustain and expand upon itself. It is to the latter that I find the most interesting potential. Imagine, if you will, that a scene out of the history of the Dune novels is what winds up playing out. People become fat and lazy on the society-provided wealth and comfort. Only a few people ever bother to do anything significant (and as a result, actually gain levels). Vast hordes of pacified L1-2 humans of irrelevant classes clog the city, following the rules to stay out of the dictatorial grasp of the mechanized police force, but otherwise not bothering to do much else.

Eventually, there are precious few high level caster-types left to actually run the show, sit on the city councils, and make the decisions. Over time, they'll die off, and replacing them will become increasingly more difficult. Weed down the populace sufficiently, and it doesn't take much to envision a situation where one or two powerful individuals with a particularly anti-social agenda could decide to 'rewrite the rules' and eliminate anyone who gets in their way. Siezing the reins of power, eliminating the rivals on the council, and using the mechanized police force to do whatever THEY demand. Again, we're taking a chapter right out of the history of Dune (and the ban on "thinking machines" that resulted from this particular era).

Say it all ends in violence? Low-level but determined and charismatic individuals eventually motivate the masses to rise up against the construct armies of the Cities and the handful of lich-lords that command them. The Tippyverse Cities fall into ruin. The circles still work, so the revolution spreads throughout. The traps still work...well, some of them...so society is still able to cobble together a meagre existance. But the ability to actually make them is lost, and a society forced to rebuild from such a catastrophic loss could be interesting indeed.

Particular note taken if in fact laws are passed that forbid the very structure that led to the Tippyverse coming about in the first place. Some areas might intentinally destroy the circles leading to their ruined city to get "off" the global grid and protect themselves. Others might establish inquisitions to destroy anyone who shows sufficient arcane, divine, or psionic might to attempt to impose a new magiocracy (The Githyanki model, without the Lich Queen).

If sufficient resources didn't survive the war, and sufficient people did, it might even be necessary to start reclaiming the "outside world" (scene reminicent of Aeon Flux) and finding a way to compete with those barbarian kingdoms that never gave up on living live the "real way" and are much, much better at it now.

As interesting as the Tippyverse is in full swing, I think it might be even MORE interesting as a falled civilization.

[JoeYounger]

Over time, they'll die off, and replacing them will become increasingly more difficult.

You won't ever have to replace them. Tippy already said that the leaders of the city are all immortal via various means.

[Man on Fire]

I too agree that Tippyverse would work much better as a failed civilization. I find an use for it in my campaing idea, only going with it much futher away - magic wars destroyed civilization, reducing it to buchn of small villages that struggle to survive, many joined raiding bands of monsters, some monsters decided to become farmers. Gods took their magic away, wizards, druids, psions and the others, already almost whiped out by war, are hunted down by inquisition, the ancient knowledge has been lost. Small group of heroes struggle to regain lost knowledge, to bring back magic to the world and now use it for good. Basically Earthsea during Dark Times with a touch of Berserk. Devastated world in anarchy, where tyrants rise and fall, bandits and monsters rampage, people desperately try to survive and players may be the only one to save the world, if they can find the knowledge that doomed it once. Main hook is based on isolation of wizards and similiar guys - players are limited to have no more than two casters/manifesters in a party and only pure ones (no Paladins, Bards, Duskblades, probably even Clerics) to put emphasis on how rare and lonely they are. Won't really work as a setting, but as a campaing it would do well, with party working to bring back the magic to the world, to save it from slowly dying.

I'll need to try this one out once.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Food, water, shelter and clothing all provided. Protection in the form of an unassailable, indestructable, and (presumably) infallable police force...backed, when necessary, with all manner of divinative and compulsion magics.

Only a few people ever bother to do anything significant (and as a result, actually gain levels). Vast hordes of pacified L1-2 humans of irrelevant classes clog the city, following the rules to stay out of the dictatorial grasp of the mechanized police force, but otherwise not bothering to do much else.

Eventually, there are precious few high level caster-types left to actually run the show, sit on the city councils, and make the decisions. Over time, they'll die off, and replacing them will become increasingly more difficult. Weed down the populace sufficiently, and it doesn't take much to envision a situation where one or two powerful individuals with a particularly anti-social agenda could decide to 'rewrite the rules' and eliminate anyone who gets in their way. Seizing the reins of power, eliminating the rivals on the council, and using the mechanized police force to do whatever THEY demand.

Say it all ends in violence? Low-level but determined and charismatic individuals eventually motivate the masses to rise up against the construct armies of the Cities and the handful of lich-lords that command them. The Tippyverse Cities fall into ruin. The circles still work, so the revolution spreads throughout. The traps still work...well, some of them...so society is still able to cobble together a meagre existance. But the ability to actually make them is lost, and a society forced to rebuild from such a catastrophic loss could be interesting indeed.

So yeah, couple of problems you have there. How are the level 1-2 peasants going to defeat the construct police force? The power of being able to die like lemmings? Then there's the various means of compulsion that'd be available to the magicrocy if we're going the evil route, not the least of which is monstrous thrall, mindrape, dominate etc. Also, as previously mentioned the casters won't just die. But let's not get into a discussion of the various ways to cheat death.

Even if the higher level mages start dying, new members can be inaugurated into the ranks via mind seed, memory bottle, barghest feeding, psychic reformation etc.

Even if the mages are overtoppled, this doesn't seem to equate itself to all the magic traps suddenly failing, since they're self-sustaining. Unless the people went on a sudden vandalism spree the system should continue to function well into the foreseeable future while alternatives are put into place.

@Man on Fire: I don't quite see how you equate tippyverse with stasis, sure its difficult to effect the essential underpinnings of the setting, but not impossible, you also seem to assume that a teleportation war is imminent, not sure where you're getting that. A example of how you could dramatically effect the setting, without extreme cheese, is getting the vecna-blooded template to avoid divinations, wear some antimagic chains, start killing the mages that don't have initiate of mystra/persisted incite magic.

[Quellian-dyrae]

But making those sweeping changes is also a chance of making interesting story. Good example would be The Squirt Gun Wars quite fun story that started when players explored the rules to do something very insane. I see no appeal in the game where I know there are things my character is not allowed to do only because it would break estabilished canon, it breaks the illusion.

The thing is, that limitation can apply in any setting. TV would presumably actually encourage such stories, because the DM is working with a setting that is based on the premise of those sorts of things happening. No, it likely won't happen automatically. Yes, there will likely be repercussions. But in this case, the probable repercussions are built into the world.

Any DM can drop some overpowered roadblock on the PCs; that's not a setting issue. Likewise, any DM can use what the PCs do to drive a story. All a setting like the TV would do is make it so the powers that be are more clearly established, make them something the PCs can learn about, anticipate, and prepare for, rather than arbitrary obstacles.

[Man on Fire]

I don't quite see how you equate tippyverse with stasis, sure its difficult to effect the essential underpinnings of the setting, but not impossible,you also seem to assume that a teleportation war is imminent, not sure where you're getting that.

Because whatever players accomplish either the next teleportation war is bound to whipe it away if it involves making life in the cities better or it's in the wilds so the next wave of monsters will destroy everything anyway. And teleprotation war is bound to happen, if people were stupid enough to do it once, they can do it again.

Hell, even small things, as becoming legendary hero won't work - no one will hear your legend, there are no travelers who can tell your story to the people, no merchants who can talk how you saved them, no bards who will sing about you...why even bother?

A example of how you could dramatically effect the setting, without extreme cheese, is getting the vecna-blooded template to avoid divinations, wear some antimagic chains, start killing the mages that don't have initiate of mystra/persisted incite magic.

Any idea how to be able to affect the setting without making gangsta lich-squid or any other character I can't think about with straight face? How about setting that doesn't require me to take fity templates and tons of items i don't even heard of for my character to matter? How about a setting where I can kill a wizard without having to play something outright ridiculous? I can get limiting character choices for climatic reasons, I'm all for it. But if I have to do that to be able to accomplish something in the setting? I'll just play different game, thank you very much. The only way

And in a moment Tippy will come and start talking how ultra cool and invincible wizards in his setting are anyway and why those ridiculous things won't work because Great Handbook Of Bullmanure, page 335.

TV would presumably actually encourage such stories, because the DM is working with a setting that is based on the premise of those sorts of things happening.

But it still gives DM easy way to whipe things out clear whenever he wants to, so whats the point of doing anything if the world is enforced in one status quo with only cosmetic changes?

All a setting like the TV would do is make it so the powers that be are more clearly established, make them something the PCs can learn about, anticipate, and prepare for, rather than arbitrary obstacles.

Where? All it has are bunch of wizards rulling the cities, who, considering it's a Tippy who wrote that, are invincible and belevolent rulers of their tiny little utopias. And even is they are evil, it's still Tippy who wrote it, so they still are invincible. There is no learn about, there is no prepare, according to Tippy every wizard is controlled by a munchkin so they'll just whipe out PCs and all they did in five seconds just because.

[Andorax]

Regarding the caster-leaders dying off: Over time, through rivalries, assassinations, failed attempts at recovering ancient artifacts in the deadlands. Sure, they don't die off from aging for whatever reason, but things do eventually happen. The point here being is that with an (initially) apathetic populace, replacement candidates will be few and far between.

Mind Seed, Memory Bottle, Barghest...etc... And the mageocrats still in power want to do this, why? Their rivals and collegues dying off will, at least initially, be seen as a boon. More power for them. Then one of them tries to abuse it, and things go south quickly.


As for the revolution? It'll go badly at first. VERY badly. LOTS of lemming-commoners dying. This is what motivates the revolution to pick up speed. The police force has already been scaled back by then (no need to maintain such levels because of the extended peace/calm beforehand). It won't happen right away, but it will happen eventually. Not even the Tippyverse can count on maintaining itself infinitely.


I do think it's an interesting setting in its heyday, but I also think it's got a lot of potential for the underpinnings of a post-apocolyptic setting.

[Quellian-dyrae]

But it still gives DM easy way to whipe things out clear whenever he wants to, so whats the point of doing anything if the world is enforced in one status quo with only cosmetic changes?

Eh, the DM is the DM, it has an easy way to wipe things out no matter what the setting is.

Where? All it has are bunch of wizards rulling the cities, who, considering it's a Tippy who wrote that, are invincible and belevolent rulers of their tiny little utopias. And even is they are evil, it's still Tippy who wrote it, so they still are invincible. There is no learn about, there is no prepare, according to Tippy every wizard is controlled by a munchkin so they'll just whipe out PCs and all they did in five seconds just because.

See, I think you're taking things a bit too far here. Looking back over Tippy's original post, there isn't really anything about omnipotent wizards ruling over everything (in fact, he explicitly says that the TV is not, inherently, such a setting). The Cities are typically ruled by the highest level casters, and the Cities' defense forces are largely made up of Shadesteel Golems led by level 10-15 wizards.

Shadesteel golems are CR 11. Greater ones CR 14. So if you figure a guard unit of eight Shadesteels, that's EL 17. The wizard probably makes it a high EL 17, maybe EL 18. If the ruling council are a group of level 17+ wizards, topping at 20, a City would be a place that a level 17 party could adventure, facing level-appropriate challenges, on the Prime Material Plane, without breaking the setting. If you play it that way, a party of level 17-20 characters, playing it smart and perhaps getting lucky and enlisting allies, could overthrow a City as a difficult but achievable quest.

I'm not saying that's the way everyone would play it. I'm not saying that's the way Tippy plays it. A DM can use the setting as an excuse to lord it over the PCs and prevent them from accomplishing anything, but a DM can use any setting that way. Or, they can use the setting to provide challenges and story hooks. I just don't think it's accurate to say that the setting inherently limits what the PCs are capable of accomplishing.

[Man on Fire]

Eh, the DM is the DM, it has an easy way to wipe things out no matter what the setting is.

But there is no reason to make it easy for him.

See, I think you're taking things a bit too far here. Looking back over Tippy's original post, there isn't really anything about omnipotent wizards ruling over everything (in fact, he explicitly says that the TV is not, inherently, such a setting).

No, but we're talking here about Tippy. There are people running around with his words, about how 20 level wizard is invincible ultra-badass there is no way to defeat, in their signatures, and he made most distusting and amoral mockery of everything I love about magic in fatasy just to prove wizards are undefetable in thread about warfare. I wouldn't trust him to make killable caster even if my life would depend on it. This isn't a personal attack, I don't have anything agaisnt him, but I have serious problem with his opinions about wizards.

The Cities are typically ruled by the highest level casters, and the Cities' defense forces are largely made up of Shadesteel Golems led by level 10-15 wizards.

Shadesteel golems are CR 11. Greater ones CR 14. So if you figure a guard unit of eight Shadesteels, that's EL 17. The wizard probably makes it a high EL 17, maybe EL 18. If the ruling council are a group of level 17+ wizards, topping at 20, a City would be a place that a level 17 party could adventure, facing level-appropriate challenges, on the Prime Material Plane, without breaking the setting. If you play it that way, a party of level 17-20 characters, playing it smart and perhaps getting lucky and enlisting allies, could overthrow a City as a difficult but achievable quest.

How it is that the only idea to affect the setting you people have is to kill the wizards? I mean, I know that's the first thing I would want to do with such crappy setting, but if that's the only thing PCs can do then it's terrible setting - either you are normal character, in which case you doesn't matter, or you are ultra-optimized super-badass munchkin character who can go against Tippy's super-badass wizards. how about other things? Building a kingdom, making the wilds civilized, helping one village proster? None of these things have a chance to last in this setting.

I'm not saying that's the way everyone would play it. I'm not saying that's the way Tippy plays it. A DM can use the setting as an excuse to lord it over the PCs and prevent them from accomplishing anything, but a DM can use any setting that way. Or, they can use the setting to provide challenges and story hooks. I just don't think it's accurate to say that the setting inherently limits what the PCs are capable of accomplishing.

But it supports DMs who like to enforce the status quo, gives them tools to break PCs accomplishments without having to pull things out of their anuses.

[Oscredwin]

Adventures in the Tippyverse:

Levels 1-5: Explore a fallen city with some wards still active but no people. Effect on the world-Find new knowledge
Levels 6-10: Hunt down a renegade mage (level 10) who, when he was rejected from the ruling council due to low level, went into the wilds to raise up an army of creatures. Effect on the world- Saved tens of thousands of lives
Levels 11-15: Hunt for an ancient artifact from a major city that was abandoned BT. There was a map in the fallen city but without a starting point, the starting point was found with the renegade mage.
Level 16-20: The ancient artifact has the power to disrupt the Tippyverse. There's a city that thinks they can win wars and is about to start them. The players can work with the conquering city or work to stop them.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Snip

See, there's two big things I disagree with you on here.

First...I don't think this should be about Tippy. He's definitely an amazing optimizer, and for sure does things with the D&D rules that I wouldn't be comfortable with in my games (regardless of their RAW legality). But how Tippy runs it in his games, and even what he envisioned in its creation (both of which things that only he can tell us), have no more bearing on its worth as a system than Ed Greenwood's playstyle and visions would on the Forgotten Realms, except to the extent that those things are explicitly integrated into the setting.

So, while I'll agree that your interpretation of the setting is a valid one, and that under that interpretation it would be a poor setting to play in, I don't think it is an interpretation that is required in the setting as described in the OP.

Second is the point about the setting making it easy for the DM to stomp out player accomplishments. I don't think it does so any more than any other setting that includes very powerful beings, be they archmages or gods. The statement that powerful wizards exist, that magic basically works as RAW dictates, and that the wizards understand and take advantage of that, does not make it any less arbitrary when the DM says one of those wizards appears and ruins things. In Forgotten Realms, it could be Szass Tam or Fzoul Chembryl or Lolth or Cyric. In Greyhawk it could be Vecna or Erythnul. In Dragonlance it could be Raistlin Majere. And in any of them, it could be some random 30th level wizard that the DM made up on the spot. It's still every bit as much an example of arbitrary railroading and, in my opinion, poor DMing.

As an aside, my example about conquering the city was just to point out a way that the setting has an integrated way of providing high-level quest hooks and challenges. I think all three of the ones you listed are quite viable, and I don't really see any reason that the setting would prohibit them. Oscredwin gives four more excellent examples.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's actually the most efficient option available, IIRC. Ultimately however, it's still bypassed by an equal level spell (wish) and subsequently (or even contingently) brought down with a dispel. Moreover, without knowing where insertion will happen, you can't reply fast enough to prevent further insertion.

And finally, because overlapping and adjacent iterations of that spell explicitly merge to a single ongoing effect, I believe one targeted dispel magic ends the whole deal. (I'd actually have to double check this- I recall the wording for the interaction of an area dispel with ongoing effects being limited to the area, I can't recall the precise interaction of a targeted dispel and an ongoing spell).

Generalized, the problem isn't that teleport defenses don't exist. But, because that the because of the precision and range of teleportation in 3.5, any large scale teleportation defense must be more effective than the spells it defends against. Instead, every defense can be bypassed by a well prepared equal-level caster.

Huh. You know, this brings up a different, but important question: is there any way to protect your spells from getting dispelled or disjoined in general?

[Hecuba]

Huh. You know, this brings up a different, but important question: is there any way to protect your spells from getting dispelled or disjoined in general?

Overlapping (non-merging) effects each with a radius greater than 20 ft, coupled with some method of notifying of a breach (sending trap) will at least do enough to allow a reasonable defensive response to dispelling.

If Halaster's teleport cage didn't have the merging clause, it would come very, very close to being functional. It still takes significantly longer to set up than take down (which is a problem) but it would be a very significant barrier to large scale insertion.

As it is, it still represents a great option for securing a structure (castle, keep, underground city), just not a nation or traditional city: if you can cages flush to solid matter that separates them-- walls and doors, for example-- you can ward an area without having the cages overlap and merge.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Casting the spells supernaturally thanks to Dweomerkeeper is the only way I can think of off of the top of my head.

[Hecuba]

Casting the spells supernaturally thanks to Dweomerkeeper is the only way I can think of off of the top of my head.

Unfortunately, the casting time of all the planar defenses I know of have a casting time outside of the valid range for Supernatural spell-- even with the aid of Rapid Spell.


Edit: Dimensional Lock works, but isn't permanent or a prescribed option for permanency.

[Cor1]

For those who dislike the setting, as in "killed my beloved fantasy warfare in DnD" : guys, that's in the rules. Tippy didn't invent that. It's the RAW.

As for a low-level peons' uprising? L.O.L. The first few hundreds of thousands would die like vermin, with the survivors levelling up - hopefully in full-caster classes, otherwise they're dead meat anyway.

Magic-users in 3e are simply THAT much better.

As for changing the setting... Yes, PCs could. It's just that that requires adventures. Playing the game, not the system.

Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"

Of COURSE there WILL be Create Food Traps. No faction without those could compete with those who have them. Of COURSE there will be Teleport Circle Networks. Of COURSE... It's the setting in which the rules apply, not one grandfathered in from older editions where non-full-casters were RELEVANT.

If you play by the rules, it's where all other settings end up.

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunately, the casting time of all the planar defenses I know of have a casting time outside of the valid range for Supernatural spell-- even with the aid of Rapid Spell.


Edit: Dimensional Lock works, but isn't permanent or a prescribed option for permanency.

Use Miracle or Wish to duplicate Forbiddance, and Supernatural Spell that (Wish can do it as long as the caster didn't ban Abjuration... and who does?).

For those who dislike the setting, as in "killed my beloved fantasy warfare in DnD" : guys, that's in the rules. Tippy didn't invent that. It's the RAW.

As for a low-level peons' uprising? L.O.L. The first few hundreds of thousands would die like vermin, with the survivors levelling up - hopefully in full-caster classes, otherwise they're dead meat anyway.

Magic-users in 3e are simply THAT much better.

As for changing the setting... Yes, PCs could. It's just that that requires adventures. Playing the game, not the system.

Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"

Of COURSE there WILL be Create Food Traps. No faction without those could compete with those who have them. Of COURSE there will be Teleport Circle Networks. Of COURSE... It's the setting in which the rules apply, not one grandfathered in from older editions where non-full-casters were RELEVANT.

If you play by the rules, it's where all other settings end up.

Not necessarily. Greece had a working steam engine that they apparently never refined beyond being used to open temple doors. Why? Apparently, for the rest of things we'd use an engine for, they had slaves for that, and didn't see a point. So no railroads, or anything else we'd use such things for today. Social reality and pressures will do funny things with technology by any name. If you don't see the point in improving the lives of all the commoners, you're not going to make that expensive Create Food and Water trap... especially when one rogue can destroy your investment completely.

[Man on Fire]

First...I don't think this should be about Tippy. He's definitely an amazing optimizer, and for sure does things with the D&D rules that I wouldn't be comfortable with in my games (regardless of their RAW legality). But how Tippy runs it in his games, and even what he envisioned in its creation (both of which things that only he can tell us), have no more bearing on its worth as a system than Ed Greenwood's playstyle and visions would on the Forgotten Realms, except to the extent that those things are explicitly integrated into the setting.

Ed Greenwood made Forgotten Realms based on his imagined stories. Tippy made Tippyverse based on the exploration of the rules. If he would make it to fit the story he wanted to tell, or to give the players opportunities other settings doesn't have, I wouldn't be bringint it up. He made the setting on the exploration of the rules. When you make setting you don't do that, you shape the rules to fit the setting and only change the setting if something in it would make the game unplayable, when reflected by the rules (or just change the system). He showed he has problems with combining fluff and crunch in healthy way once, why should I trust him to don't do it again?

For those who dislike the setting, as in "killed my beloved fantasy warfare in DnD" : guys, that's in the rules. Tippy didn't invent that. It's the RAW.

As for a low-level peons' uprising? L.O.L. The first few hundreds of thousands would die like vermin, with the survivors levelling up - hopefully in full-caster classes, otherwise they're dead meat anyway.

Magic-users in 3e are simply THAT much better.

As for changing the setting... Yes, PCs could. It's just that that requires adventures. Playing the game, not the system.

Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"

Of COURSE there WILL be Create Food Traps. No faction without those could compete with those who have them. Of COURSE there will be Teleport Circle Networks. Of COURSE... It's the setting in which the rules apply, not one grandfathered in from older editions where non-full-casters were RELEVANT.

If you play by the rules, it's where all other settings end up.

Well, if you want to apply that kind of realism then there should be no dungeoncrawls, because making dungeons full of traps and monsters doesn't make sense, players shouldn't be able to spend skill points on skills they didn't used since previous level up, wearing and taking care of an armor would be royal pain in the bottom to the point nobody would do it, fights would be taking very long and have very complicated system of damage in which characters are very fragile and one wound can drop them dead...there are a lot of things that are unrealistic in D&D but make the game more fun for players. If you want realism, change the game.

[ThiagoMartell]

So, any new regarding that ruling about magic items above 200k? Are the wish traps officially epic?

[demigodus]

He made the setting on the exploration of the rules. When you make setting you don't do that, you shape the rules to fit the setting and only change the setting if something in it would make the game unplayable, when reflected by the rules (or just change the system).

So, your suggestion is that, if he wants to write his own setting he should rewrite the rules from scratch? That isn't the purpose of TV. If that is what you are looking for, TV isn't for you. That does not mean TV is bad, or Tippy made a mistake in making it as you are implying though; he is just appealing to a different audience from the one you belong to.

Also, just out of curiosity, the current 3e rules were shaped to fit which setting exactly? What DnD setting is internally consistent with the DnD rules?

Well, if you want to apply that kind of realism then there should be no dungeoncrawls, because making dungeons full of traps and monsters doesn't make sense, players shouldn't be able to spend skill points on skills they didn't used since previous level up, wearing and taking care of an armor would be royal pain in the bottom to the point nobody would do it, fights would be taking very long and have very complicated system of damage in which characters are very fragile and one wound can drop them dead...there are a lot of things that are unrealistic in D&D but make the game more fun for players. If you want realism, change the game.

Jack's point was to apply realism to the setting, assuming the RAW DnD rules.

Claiming that if he wants to do that he should apply realism to the RAW D&D rules because both things are realism, is a strawman. There are different kinds of realism. TV appeals to those of us who want a certain kind of realism (setting consistent with rules), while having a non-realism elsewhere (non-realistic rules to some degree). That is a valid point.

Don't tell people to change the game if they are happy with the rules of the game.

[Douglas]

So, any new regarding that ruling about magic items above 200k? Are the wish traps officially epic?

I believe the "Epic Magic does not exist" assumption is specifically referring to this stuff and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to access it, not simply magic items that exceed the normal caps.

[Doug Lampert]

So, any new regarding that ruling about magic items above 200k? Are the wish traps officially epic?

You misquoted the postulate. The postulate is "Epic Magic does not exist", there's no ALL there, Epic Magic is a specific spellcasting style and feat. It has no interaction with epic magic items.

Edit: Ninja.

[Man on Fire]

So, your suggestion is that, if he wants to write his own setting he should rewrite the rules from scratch? That isn't the purpose of TV. If that is what you are looking for, TV isn't for you. That does not mean TV is bad, or Tippy made a mistake in making it as you are implying though; he is just appealing to a different audience from the one you belong to.

I'm starting to think that "it's not for you" is just an easy excuse to shrug off criticism.

No, my suggestion is not that he should rewrite the rules from the scratch if he wants to start a setting. My suggestion is that he should think about a hook, something other games doesn't have, because otherwise common players will look at it, say "Nothing I haven't seen before" and pick up something else.

Again, look at already published D&D settings - they either give us something special that others doesn't have. Ravenloft and Masque of Red Death have horror in different styles, Council of Wyrms lets you play a Dragon, Birthright has large politics, Spelljammer has bizarre cosmic adventures, Dark Sun is postapocalyptic, Eberron introduces more advanced technology, Mystara has air pirates, Planescape is just so bizarre, Thieve's World and Lankhmar are based on popural book series, even Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are supposed to have some sort of thing that makes them special - colossal size and how packed with everything it is of the former and very Tolkien-like style of the latter. Greyhawk and Points of light remains as only "pure" standard fantasy and in former's case that's his point and latter isn't as much of a setting as a "theme".

I point out that TV lacks anything that makes it special, that hook that would make it special and you go "Oh it's just not for you". I'm an RPG player, every setting is for me, I'm as vaild part of the target audience as anyone in this thread and I say why this idea doesn't want me to go and play it and present a vaild criticism for that - that it has nothing other games won't give me. By saying "It's not for you" you just can shrug off any criticism and alienate any group on the market you doesn't agree with. If it isn't for me, as you claim, then tell me, for who it's supposed to be?

Jack's point was to apply realism to the setting, assuming the RAW DnD rules.

Claiming that if he wants to do that he should apply realism to the RAW D&D rules because both things are realism, is a strawman. There are different kinds of realism. TV appeals to those of us who want a certain kind of realism (setting consistent with rules), while having a non-realism elsewhere (non-realistic rules to some degree). That is a valid point.

That's the same realism.
"If wizards are so powerfull why the world is still on medival level? Shouldn't they use their magic to do this and this and that?" is question of the same realism as "What kind of idiot protects his library by building huge dungeon around it and filling it with monsters? What these things eat, anyway?". Rules have nothing to do with it, he could made the same argument to defend any setting that offers nothing but more bit of realism no matter system in question.

[ThiagoMartell]

I believe the "Epic Magic does not exist" assumption is specifically referring to this stuff and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to access it, not simply magic items that exceed the normal caps.

Well, it does mean that the Tippyverse wizardlords are at least level 23. That's when you can take the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. It's another point for why this scenario is not the norm, such casters are ridiculously rare in most settings. I don't think you can even get one through the standard community generation guidelines, meaning they all exist under DM fiat.
I think the Tippyverse is quite interesting, but now I don't agree that much with that 'the RAW world' meaning. It's an interesting setting that explores how some rules interact with each other, but it is not completely RAW.