The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

[Tibbletoad]

This. So for example, if you've got a Wisdom of 18 you'd have 4(Wis)+5(level)= 9 total spells. So you could have any combination of 9 spells (not counting cantrips).

So now that i am creating a level 11 it is handy to up the wisdom to 18 so i get more spells if i get to play the level 11 ( which i dont hope to be honest i Like Lovissa as a level 5 :D)

[Yorrin]

So now that i am creating a level 11 it is handy to up the wisdom to 18 so i get more spells if i get to play the level 11 ( which i dont hope to be honest i Like Lovissa as a level 5 :D)

Yes, keeping your Wis up is an important part of leveling a Cleric, as it determines your number of spell prepared as well as your spell attack bonus and spell save DC.

[Theodoxus]

I highly recommend ForgedAnvil for character creation, especially for higher level builds where you're starting from scratch. Provided you have Excel...

[Nod_Hero]

I highly recommend ForgedAnvil for character creation, especially for higher level builds where you're starting from scratch. Provided you have Excel...

ForgedAnvil is my go-to as well, I second the suggestion.

[Tibbletoad]

I want to thank you all for the help
Lovissa the life domain Cleric emerged from the Epic Reclemation of Phlan as Lovissa the undead slayerof the griffon iders, with a staff of healing and a griffon mount.

The epic was Amzing and Team broad sword had an epic sacrifice to kill the dragon ( their wizard broke the staff of power killing her self and the Green dragon)

My team the Griffon Riders even took down a red dragon :D

[Solovar]

So i am a cleric in our new 5e campaign. This guide has some good advice which i am looking into.

I am not sure how to play my cleric yet. We have a fighter, rogue and warlock. Should i be more of a support towards combat or stay away and heal/buff? Some told me that in combat, i will lose concentration if get damaged and that i should stay more in the back.

It all comes down to domains. I am currently light which is guided more from range with fireball ect. I am neutral and i have a choice to become war or even death domain (evil).

I am having a hard time taking a dicision on which domain to use and if i should go death or go war domain.

Any advice would be appreciated

Regards

[Yorrin]

So i am a cleric in our new 5e campaign. This guide has some good advice which i am looking into.

I am not sure how to play my cleric yet. We have a fighter, rogue and warlock. Should i be more of a support towards combat or stay away and heal/buff? Some told me that in combat, i will lose concentration if get damaged and that i should stay more in the back.

It all comes down to domains. I am currently light which is guided more from range with fireball ect. I am neutral and i have a choice to become war or even death domain (evil).

I am having a hard time taking a dicision on which domain to use and if i should go death or go war domain.

Any advice would be appreciated

Regards

Well, the good news is that all these are good options. In terms of Concentration, you get a save to maintain it if you get hit, and the save isn't really that hard. So being up front isn't really much of a problem. And most of the time healing can be done after combat, except in really dire situations.

So your three Domain options right now are Light, War, and Death, yes? What do your ability scores look like? Because given your party composition, any of the three could work well. If you don't have much Dex or Str but do have a high Wis, stick with Light. If you've got a good Str but a mediocre Dex you could go War, and if you've got a good Dex you could go either War or Death. Dex based War would allow you to keep your role in the back, if you like, with a good Bow or Crossbow, and if you did want to mix things up in melee then Death and both versions of War could get you there pretty easily.

That being said, you're likely going to be competing with your Rogue, and possibly your Warlock or Fighter depending on their builds, for enchanted items like Rapiers and Studded Leather if you go with a Dex build. Light would have the least amount of gear overlap with your party, if that's an issue.

[Solovar]

Well, the good news is that all these are good options. In terms of Concentration, you get a save to maintain it if you get hit, and the save isn't really that hard. So being up front isn't really much of a problem. And most of the time healing can be done after combat, except in really dire situations.

So your three Domain options right now are Light, War, and Death, yes? What do your ability scores look like? Because given your party composition, any of the three could work well. If you don't have much Dex or Str but do have a high Wis, stick with Light. If you've got a good Str but a mediocre Dex you could go War, and if you've got a good Dex you could go either War or Death. Dex based War would allow you to keep your role in the back, if you like, with a good Bow or Crossbow, and if you did want to mix things up in melee then Death and both versions of War could get you there pretty easily.

That being said, you're likely going to be competing with your Rogue, and possibly your Warlock or Fighter depending on their builds, for enchanted items like Rapiers and Studded Leather if you go with a Dex build. Light would have the least amount of gear overlap with your party, if that's an issue.

Thank you for the fast reply!!
Stat wise:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 13
I am already level 6 have an armour of about 22 because the dm granted me this magical plate +2 ac and i use a warhammer as a weapon. My actual domain is light but dm said i can change it.
Also.. if i deal necrotic damage, specially playing adve tures such as rise of tiamat and prince of the apocalypse.. would i be ar a disadvantage since some can be immune or have resistance.. at least i think

I hope this can be of a help.

[Finieous]

I don't believe light clerics are proficient in plate armor, so I'd stick with the huge buff the DM bestowed on you. Take Resilient (Con) to get it to 18 and gain save proficiency for those concentration checks.

[Solovar]

I also saw the feat war caster, would that be good in the situation for concentration check or it's no necessary? I just turned level 7 from what the dm just texted me and i was wondering if i should grab that feat at level 8 or boost wis from 18 to 20?

[Finieous]

No, particularly with your Con, Resilient is better than Warcaster.* With Con +4 and +3 proficiency bonus, you're going to make concentration checks against 20 damage or less on a roll of 3+. That will be 2+ when your proficiency bonus increases at 9th level. Of course, the feat gives you proficiency on all Con saves, not just concentration checks, and there are some nasty ones. Take Resilient at 8th level and bump Wisdom to 20 at 12th level.

* Unless your DM is the sort to jam you up about casting certain spells with warhammer and shield. He doesn't sound like that sort.

[Arkhios]

Might I inquire which feat or feats you already have? And what race is your character?

[Solovar]

Might I inquire which feat or feats you already have? And what race is your character?

I have the resilient con i and my race is a hill dwarf

[xroads]

Nice guide. Lot of helpful tips.

It may be worth noting that the feat "Observant" is pretty handy if your cleric happens to have an odd numbered wisdom stat.

[Oramac]

I'll second all the compliments. Fantastic guide!

Tempest Cleric 2: This could be rather potent on a sorcerer who focused on electrical and/or thunder damage. Maybe.

From experience playing it, drop the maybe. It's borderline broken, imo.

A maximized Chromatic Orb out of a higher level slot is really painful to pretty much anything without resistance, and a crit can literally one-shot a lot of monsters.

Even without considering Destructive Wrath, you get heavy armor, shields, and martial weapons on a full-caster chassis without giving up any spell slots or spell progression. Plus, there's tons of mobility, reaction damage on being hit (if they hit you through heavy armor/shield), even higher AC with Shield, and the cool factor of basically being Thor.

The only possible downside is needing 13 Wis and 13 Cha. But that's not really too big a problem, tbh.

[RulesJD]

I'll second all the compliments. Fantastic guide!



From experience playing it, drop the maybe. It's borderline broken, imo.

A maximized Chromatic Orb out of a higher level slot is really painful to pretty much anything without resistance, and a crit can literally one-shot a lot of monsters.

Even without considering Destructive Wrath, you get heavy armor, shields, and martial weapons on a full-caster chassis without giving up any spell slots or spell progression. Plus, there's tons of mobility, reaction damage on being hit (if they hit you through heavy armor/shield), even higher AC with Shield, and the cool factor of basically being Thor.

The only possible downside is needing 13 Wis and 13 Cha. But that's not really too big a problem, tbh.

Take Cleric to 6 for twice per short rest max damage + Spirit Guardians + push on lightning damage. You're beyond lethal at all ranges and breaking your concentration is pretty difficult. Go Wild Magic sorc for all sorts of Wild Magic surges from Shield/Chomatic Orb/Shatters/Lightning Bolt/etc as you use your basically at-will advantage on all d20 rolls from Tides of Chaos.

Oh and full spell slot progression for upcasting Spirit Guardians + Chromatic Orb.

[Oramac]

Take Cleric to 6 for twice per short rest max damage + Spirit Guardians + push on lightning damage. You're beyond lethal at all ranges and breaking your concentration is pretty difficult. Go Wild Magic sorc for all sorts of Wild Magic surges from Shield/Chomatic Orb/Shatters/Lightning Bolt/etc as you use your basically at-will advantage on all d20 rolls from Tides of Chaos.

Oh and full spell slot progression for upcasting Spirit Guardians + Chromatic Orb.

Just my personal experience, but Tempest 2 / Storm X seems to work better in actual play.

But I am only one person and YMMV, so don't let me stop you playing it!

[rhombism]

Yorrin, I just registered on giantitp, but have been using your Cleric thread as a resource for my clerics now for about 6 months, and just wanted to say thank you for the comprehensive treatment and the continued follow up. My light cleric is now Level 8 and has used many of your posts as he's leveled up. This is the first spell caster I have played so thanks for the great help.

[Yorrin]

Yorrin, I just registered on giantitp, but have been using your Cleric thread as a resource for my clerics now for about 6 months, and just wanted to say thank you for the comprehensive treatment and the continued follow up. My light cleric is now Level 8 and has used many of your posts as he's leveled up. This is the first spell caster I have played so thanks for the great help.

Thanks! Glad to be of use!

[Giant2005]

Your criticisms of Blessing of the Trickster are absolutely pathetic. I don't use such strong words casually, but they are truly justified in this case.
First, your criticisms have nothing to do with the ability. In fact, you haven't mentioned the ability itself at all. You don't get to slam an ability without actually evaluating the ability.
Secondly, the completely unrelated criticisms that you did list are very nearly entirely baseless. The only criticism that you listed that isn't ignored by a Dex build is being limited to using a dagger. A level 20 build using a dagger will have 2 less DPR than if it was using the most optimal finesse weapon. As anyone that has ever played the game can tell you, 2 DPR is meaningless.

Less insane, but still relevant are some more of your strange choices; most notably the Barbarian multiclass. The Cleric's concentration is debatably more important to him than it is for any other class - that makes Rage useless for him, and of course the Barbarian totem along with it. The only thing of worth you gain from a Barbarian is Martial Weapon Proficiency, but even that is of extremely limited value and there are much better dips that can be taken to get it. The Paladin is an obvious example (which you somehow rated lower). Not only will it give you the same weapon proficiency, but heavy armor proficiency too. A second level is far more valuable too considering the benefits of a Fighting Style and Divine Smite (on a melee-based full caster!) and the fact that Reckless Attack is almost as contrary to the design of the Cleric as Rage is (getting hit more often when concentration is so valuable is a bad, bad idea). Danger Sense is nice though but not enough to make the options even close to being comparable (with Paladin being the clearly superior choice). Heavy Armor + Divine Smite + Fighting Style is undeniably superior to Danger Sense.

You also underrated some of the spells that virtually single-handedly justify the existence of the Cleric (Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians). Sure you rated them highly, but you did not rate them sky blue which is strange considering they are very nearly the sole draw of the class in the first place.

[Yorrin]

Your criticisms of Blessing of the Trickster are absolutely pathetic. I don't use such strong words casually, but they are truly justified in this case.
First, your criticisms have nothing to do with the ability. In fact, you haven't mentioned the ability itself at all. You don't get to slam an ability without actually evaluating the ability.
Secondly, the completely unrelated criticisms that you did list are very nearly entirely baseless. The only criticism that you listed that isn't ignored by a Dex build is being limited to using a dagger. A level 20 build using a dagger will have 2 less DPR than if it was using the most optimal finesse weapon. As anyone that has ever played the game can tell you, 2 DPR is meaningless.

While I stand by my rating, I'll agree that I could do a much better job explaining it. I'll go back this week and revisit my Trickery section for clarity and balance.

Less insane, but still relevant are some more of your strange choices; most notably the Barbarian multiclass. The Cleric's concentration is debatably more important to him than it is for any other class - that makes Rage useless for him, and of course the Barbarian totem along with it. The only thing of worth you gain from a Barbarian is Martial Weapon Proficiency, but even that is of extremely limited value and there are much better dips that can be taken to get it. The Paladin is an obvious example (which you somehow rated lower). Not only will it give you the same weapon proficiency, but heavy armor proficiency too. A second level is far more valuable too considering the benefits of a Fighting Style and Divine Smite (on a melee-based full caster!) and the fact that Reckless Attack is almost as contrary to the design of the Cleric as Rage is (getting hit more often when concentration is so valuable is a bad, bad idea). Danger Sense is nice though but not enough to make the options even close to being comparable (with Paladin being the clearly superior choice). Heavy Armor + Divine Smite + Fighting Style is undeniably superior to Danger Sense.

Of your criticisms this is the one that is best aimed. After looking though Barbarian again and having now been playing 5e a bit longer I agree that I did rate it far too highly. Paladin is probably also a bit low, though I originally rated it that way as a contrast to Fighter, which is superior to both as a dip. That being said, I'm likely to switch the rating for those two classes, and perhaps rewrite the Barbarian section to reflect the incompatibility of Rage.

You also underrated some of the spells that virtually single-handedly justify the existence of the Cleric (Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians). Sure you rated them highly, but you did not rate them sky blue which is strange considering they are very nearly the sole draw of the class in the first place.

There are very few spells that managed that Light Blue rating, and not a single one of them is a damage spell. That being said, Spirit Guardians could probably be justified, as it is also a potent debuff. When I go through on my pass of your above criticisms that probably will also get bumped up.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

The Paladin is an obvious example (which you somehow rated lower). Not only will it give you the same weapon proficiency, but heavy armor proficiency too. A second level is far more valuable too considering the benefits of a Fighting Style and Divine Smite (on a melee-based full caster!) and the fact that Reckless Attack is almost as contrary to the design of the Cleric as Rage is (getting hit more often when concentration is so valuable is a bad, bad idea).

*snip*

Paladin multiclass does NOT grant Heavy Armor proficiency. Only if your first level is in that class.

Nor does a Fighter multiclass.

Ironically, the only way to get Heavy Armor from a multiclass dip is to multiclass into one of the Cleric domains that grants it.

[Giant2005]

Paladin multiclass does NOT grant Heavy Armor proficiency. Only if your first level is in that class.

Nor does a Fighter multiclass.

Ironically, the only way to get Heavy Armor from a multiclass dip is to multiclass into one of the Cleric domains that grants it.

That is true, but anyone that plans on being both of those classes and actually wants the proficiency, is going to ensure they start as the Paladin (or Fighter) first. I would at least.

[Theodoxus]

That is true, but anyone that plans on being both of those classes and actually wants the proficiency, is going to ensure they start as the Paladin (or Fighter) first. I would at least.

Probably depends on what their goal is. If you're looking for a martial cleric, might as well go Tempest or War and skip the MC all together - unless you want something specific like Smite, FS or Action Surge to help your build.

If you want a bit more survivability to augment a more blasty cleric, then sure, grabbing a level of fighter at 1st is better for the proficiencies and FS.

Outside of dipping to shore up perceived weaknesses, the classes don't actually synergize very well. Going too deep into one negates the benefits of the other. There certainly isn't as much benefit to dipping fighter as a cleric as there would be, for say a bladelock.


On an unrelated note, with all the talk about Spirit Guardians, I just wanted to throw my two coppers into the pool. As a player, I'd been anticipating the spell for a while. When I finally hit 5th, and found a decent group of enemies to use it on... it was, lackluster, to say the least. I became the defacto target of choice and got swamped in arrows. As a DM, I've found next to no use for it, as my players are fireball wary and never stack up unless they have no choice. Also a a DM, having had one player try it, over a flaming sphere, he was quite sad when the fight was over the round after he cast the spell. It's great for taking out popcorn, as he learned, but spending the slot for what turned out to be a low powered fireball was disappointing.

Spirit Guardians (along with Moon Druids) are 5Es big 'tier 1' "holy crap, this is awesome!" misdirects. Everyone talks about how great they are, and then in play, they're utter crap. Too many of my players have been burnt on moonies hype - and now SG is falling into the same idea.

It's good. It's not sky blue/gold good. It's super situational and from my experience, that situation is recognized about 2 rounds too late to make optimal use of the spell.

[MrStabby]

Probably depends on what their goal is. If you're looking for a martial cleric, might as well go Tempest or War and skip the MC all together - unless you want something specific like Smite, FS or Action Surge to help your build.

If you want a bit more survivability to augment a more blasty cleric, then sure, grabbing a level of fighter at 1st is better for the proficiencies and FS.

Outside of dipping to shore up perceived weaknesses, the classes don't actually synergize very well. Going too deep into one negates the benefits of the other. There certainly isn't as much benefit to dipping fighter as a cleric as there would be, for say a bladelock.


On an unrelated note, with all the talk about Spirit Guardians, I just wanted to throw my two coppers into the pool. As a player, I'd been anticipating the spell for a while. When I finally hit 5th, and found a decent group of enemies to use it on... it was, lackluster, to say the least. I became the defacto target of choice and got swamped in arrows. As a DM, I've found next to no use for it, as my players are fireball wary and never stack up unless they have no choice. Also a a DM, having had one player try it, over a flaming sphere, he was quite sad when the fight was over the round after he cast the spell. It's great for taking out popcorn, as he learned, but spending the slot for what turned out to be a low powered fireball was disappointing.

Spirit Guardians (along with Moon Druids) are 5Es big 'tier 1' "holy crap, this is awesome!" misdirects. Everyone talks about how great they are, and then in play, they're utter crap. Too many of my players have been burnt on moonies hype - and now SG is falling into the same idea.

It's good. It's not sky blue/gold good. It's super situational and from my experience, that situation is recognized about 2 rounds too late to make optimal use of the spell.

I am not sure this is fair - lots or ranged attacks is the worst possible thing for spirit guardians. No desire to move closer, able to spread out of range and can pick the cleric as a priority target. It seems a bit harsh to design an encounter to make the spell bad then claim it is underwhelming.

I also think it is a bit harsh to look at the spell for a single encounter. its 10 min duration so it can last a bunch of short battles.

Its a great spell at level 5 but it is a real asset over the longer game. At higher levels its still a pretty good use of a level 3 spell slot, which are more expendable (although depending on your party bless may be a better use of concentration). Furthermore, it is pretty brutal as you begin to cast it from higher slots as well.

[RulesJD]

*snip*


On an unrelated note, with all the talk about Spirit Guardians, I just wanted to throw my two coppers into the pool. As a player, I'd been anticipating the spell for a while. When I finally hit 5th, and found a decent group of enemies to use it on... it was, lackluster, to say the least. I became the defacto target of choice and got swamped in arrows. As a DM, I've found next to no use for it, as my players are fireball wary and never stack up unless they have no choice. Also a a DM, having had one player try it, over a flaming sphere, he was quite sad when the fight was over the round after he cast the spell. It's great for taking out popcorn, as he learned, but spending the slot for what turned out to be a low powered fireball was disappointing.

Spirit Guardians (along with Moon Druids) are 5Es big 'tier 1' "holy crap, this is awesome!" misdirects. Everyone talks about how great they are, and then in play, they're utter crap. Too many of my players have been burnt on moonies hype - and now SG is falling into the same idea.

It's good. It's not sky blue/gold good. It's super situational and from my experience, that situation is recognized about 2 rounds too late to make optimal use of the spell.

Could not disagree harder.

1. Take a Feat/Multiclass dip to get proficiency in Con saves (I prefer Wild Magic Sorc)

2. Cast it before you enter the Dungeon/Castle/whatever.

3. Profit


People always overlook a few elements of the spell. You HAVE to remember the difficult terrain effect. It means that unless the target starts exactly on the edge of the spell, they will be unable to Move + Attack you on the same turn without Dashing (unless >30ft of movement obviously). Also, it lasts for 10 minutes. Which basically covers all fights between short rests in any sort of dungeon/building. For a level 3 spell that's the absolute best use out of a single level 3 spell slot you can get.

Moreover, it doesn't require any Action at all to continue to cast damage. What does that mean? Simply take the Dodge Action and move around. DM can concentrate on you but good luck in your AC 20 (Plate + shield) and even worse if you take a Multiclass into Sorc and pickup the Shield spell. It's really the ultimate tanking spell because it outputs enough damage to require focus firing, but it's against a class that can tank the damage with Dodge + AC.

The spell also has some of the best up-casting with a d8, superior to Fireball and indeed most AoE spells. It moves with the caster so no worry about placement.

The only way the spell isn't "worth" it is in the situations where you said, which is basically fights that end to soon. But that's hardly a negative against the spell, more a comment on 5e's tendency to have short fights because DMs just like one big target.

[rhombism]

Your criticisms of Blessing of the Trickster are absolutely pathetic. I don't use such strong words casually, but they are truly justified in this case.
First, your criticisms have nothing to do with the ability. In fact, you haven't mentioned the ability itself at all. You don't get to slam an ability without actually evaluating the ability.
Secondly, the completely unrelated criticisms that you did list are very nearly entirely baseless. The only criticism that you listed that isn't ignored by a Dex build is being limited to using a dagger. A level 20 build using a dagger will have 2 less DPR than if it was using the most optimal finesse weapon. As anyone that has ever played the game can tell you, 2 DPR is meaningless.

Less insane, but still relevant are some more of your strange choices; most notably the Barbarian multiclass. The Cleric's concentration is debatably more important to him than it is for any other class - that makes Rage useless for him, and of course the Barbarian totem along with it. The only thing of worth you gain from a Barbarian is Martial Weapon Proficiency, but even that is of extremely limited value and there are much better dips that can be taken to get it. The Paladin is an obvious example (which you somehow rated lower). Not only will it give you the same weapon proficiency, but heavy armor proficiency too. A second level is far more valuable too considering the benefits of a Fighting Style and Divine Smite (on a melee-based full caster!) and the fact that Reckless Attack is almost as contrary to the design of the Cleric as Rage is (getting hit more often when concentration is so valuable is a bad, bad idea). Danger Sense is nice though but not enough to make the options even close to being comparable (with Paladin being the clearly superior choice). Heavy Armor + Divine Smite + Fighting Style is undeniably superior to Danger Sense.

You also underrated some of the spells that virtually single-handedly justify the existence of the Cleric (Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians). Sure you rated them highly, but you did not rate them sky blue which is strange considering they are very nearly the sole draw of the class in the first place.

This kind of comment makes me sad, and I think it's the kind of comment that makes people not want to submit content. Sorry you were so upset by it, but it's his opinion and one that has value as part of a body of work on an interesting topic, freely offered. So the good news is you got your money back.

[Oramac]

This kind of comment makes me sad, and I think it's the kind of comment that makes people not want to submit content. Sorry you were so upset by it, but it's his opinion and one that has value as part of a body of work on an interesting topic, freely offered. So the good news is you got your money back.

Agreed. Also, kudos to Yorrin for actually replying. Had it been me, after reading the first insulting sentence I'd have said something to the effect of "if you don't like it, write your own damn guide".

[djreynolds]

At 8th level, my life cleric gets radiant damage added to his melee attack. My strength is 14. Am I concerned or is that good enough? Things like resilient con and maxing out wisdom seem more important, but I want to get some real use out of this.

Should I be focusing on strength, and say leave wisdom at 16?

I'm a hill dwarf 14/10/16/16/10/8, standard array. I'm actually about to level up to 4th level. Should I invest in strength in preparation of the clerics divine smite at 8th, because bless conflicts with spirit guardians coming to me at 5th.

[Gtdead]

No chance of Magic Initiate? Generally speaking, since you don't get extra attacks, your attack stat is supposed to be important once you get divine strike. If you had more attacks, it wouldn't matter that much as much as this 1d8 is concerned.

But while you buff your main attack with str, your spirit weapon doesn't get any better.

At lvl 8 against an AC of 15
+2 Str will result in: 12.38 dpr
+2 Wis will result in: 12.25 dpr

It's abysmal. I think it's better to grab WIS for your other spells.
It's still not a great dpr increase as far as averages are concerned.
It will increase SG's DC but +1 isn't that important when you still deal half damage on a save.
It will make a difference with various debuffs and utility though.

Only reason to go STR is if you are making use of BB/GFB.