SP just like PP (magic)

[Strormer]

Right, so I'm not terribly familiar with the 3.5 psionics system, my old DM hated all things psionic and said he would never play with them, but I've been wanting to use a Spell Points system for magic instead of the Spells per Day system and someone told me to try and use the psionics system for any caster class. I don't mind the idea, but I'm not sure how it would work. It seems like its not an even fit. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[137beth]

Well...
both spells and psionic powers have the same level system (0 through 9), so that is easy enough. You'd have to decide how many pp per level each caster-class gets. The main difference as I see it (I have only a little familiarity with psionics, basically just enough for Eberron games and to run encounters against mindflayers/other physic monsters, but have no experience with a player playing a psionic character), is that all physic classes manifest spontaneously. For the variation on prepared-casters, we would need an alternative set of advantages/disadvantages. Presumably, the wizard would learn more spells than the sorcerer (though still a limited number, unlike the PHB wizard), but get fewer pp/day. This has the potential to work, and could even help reduce the overpowered nature of the wizard (since it could no longer cast every spell in the game).

[Timeless Error]

I'd just use psionics and not change a thing except the fluff. Use psions for wizards, wilders for sorcerers, ardents (from the Complete Psionic sourcebook) for clerics, and psychic warriors for druids, or at least something along those lines.

[gkathellar]

^What he said. But find a wilder fix if you do. And in general.

[Prime32]

I'd just use psionics and not change a thing except the fluff. Use psions for wizards, wilders for sorcerers, ardents (from the Complete Psionic sourcebook) for clerics, and psychic warriors for druids, or at least something along those lines.

Someone has already done such a "paint job".

Right, so I'm not terribly familiar with the 3.5 psionics system, my old DM hated all things psionic and said he would never play with them, but I've been wanting to use a Spell Points system for magic instead of the Spells per Day system and someone told me to try and use the psionics system for any caster class. I don't mind the idea, but I'm not sure how it would work. It seems like its not an even fit. Does anyone have any suggestions?

The fluff of the standard casters is that they write down a set of instructions involving primitive science that only they can understand, then memorise them in such a way that they forget them after they are followed (unless they memorise them more than once), and cannot choose between casting many weak spells or fewer strong ones.

Is this really closer to most fictional magic users than "I reshape reality with my will, and I can keep going until I get tired"?

[Agrippa]

Someone has already done such a "paint job".

Thanks for the mention Prime32, but it's still not finished.

[Reluctance]

WotC already provided a bunch of options. Take your pick. Spell points being the most obvious, but recharge being interesting too.

DMs who insist that psionics/ToB are overpowered or "aren't really D&D" are kind of asking for Batman or a druid to come along, though. As noted above, psionics with a very thin coat of paint become a better magic system than the magic system is.

[Kobold-Bard]

I made a spell points system recently, it makes prepared casters act like the Psionic Erudite.

I like it.

[Welknair]

I'm surprised that no one has pointed this out.

[Strormer]

All of these are quite interesting options and I admit I'm still reading through several of them. I did look at the SP option from UA and so far its still in the lead, but I think I'm going to make something original because my two biggest issues remain no matter what. I want spellcasters to be versatile, unique from caster to caster, not just class to class, and to be able to cast themselves into oblivion if they're not careful. Vitalizing was what got me started on this and I think I'll need to focus on crafting a new system myself.
Thanks so much for everyone's input!

[Dragon Star]

I don't play DDO much, but I know it has a spell point system. Could that be modified to work in D&D?

[Strormer]

Not sure about DDO, never played myself.
Incidentally, I just stumbled across a system that I'm working on tweaking and modifying, but that I like a lot. It's actually already based on an older system that they've modified and I think with a little work I could make this system fit very nicely into a simplified but effective system. With a good deal of the mana burn concept I'd already been toying with from UA's SP system I think this is an excellent concept.
Whoever was the first to start this counting down concept should be applauded. ^_^

[Tebryn]

Surprised no one's mentioned this either.

[Ernir]

Surprised no one's mentioned this either.

Reluctance did.

That variant has its... problems, though.

I'm surprised that no one has pointed this out.

And I'm happy someone did!

(By the way, I re-did the spells to take the new system into account. I don't know of another system that does that. So mine is totally awesome and you should check it out. /selfplug)

[Strormer]

Alright. I've been tweaking that one I mentioned earlier for a bit and I wanted to run it past everyone. I'm still not certain if I want to limit the A Casters to a spells known list or not. Their versatility is just obnoxious at the moment, which is good and bad, but I'm worried they're getting beefed up when I'm really trying to keep these casters at roughly the same power level as the PHB casters.

Strain system based on this

Spoiler

Show

Every caster has a set Tolerance score.

Tolerance = Casting ability score + Caster Level (CL) + Constitution modifier

When spells are cast, casters gain Strain equal to the strain cost of the spell, found on the tables for each class, plus any relevant modifiers. Spells are cast with no roll as long as the caster’s Strain is lower than their Tolerance score.

If a caster’s Strain score would equal or exceed their Tolerance score then the caster becomes Strained. Strained casters take a -2 penalty on all checks, saves, and action rolls and can only cast by Vialization (see below). If a strained character would become fatigued, he becomes exhausted instead. If a fatigued character becomes strained he also becomes exhausted. Exhausted casters are unable to cast, regardless of Strain score.

Vitalization allows casters to exceed their Tolerance score for the purposes of continued casting. If a Strained caster attempts to cast he must roll for the successful casting of his spell. This roll is a Fortitude save against a DC of 10 + the spell’s level + the number of Strain the caster currently has in excess of his Tolerance score. If the save is successful the spell is cast normally and the caster takes damage equal to the Strain cost of the spell cast, in addition to adding the same amount to his Strain. If the save is a failure the spell is not cast and the caster takes 1 negative level.

Optional: If using the botched roll rules, a natural one results in the same effects as a normal failure and the DM may have the spell backfire.
If a caster’s Strain score ever doubles their Tolerance they immediately become exhausted and cannot cast further. If a caster should ever gain a number of negative levels equal to their class level(s), he is immediately slain and his body immolates in arcane fire. A caster slain in such a way can only be brought back to life by a true resurrection spell cast by a suitable cleric.

A caster recovers from Strain at a rate of half his CL (not to exceed his casting ability score) per hour provided he does not cast, fight, run, or in any other way exert himself and he is not exhausted. Upon completing a full night’s rest, normally 8 hours, he reduces his Strain by an additional amount equal to his casting ability modifier + his Constitution modifier.

and here are my modified strain cost tables to reduce the number of free spells at high levels from what the original had.

Spoiler

Show

	Spell Level (A)									
CL	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	3	7	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	3	6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	3	6	7	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	2	6	6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	2	5	6	7	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	2	5	6	6	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	1	5	5	6	8	-	-	-	-	-
8	1	4	5	6	7	-	-	-	-	-
9	1	4	5	5	7	8	-	-	-	-
10	0	4	4	5	7	7	-	-	-	-
11	0	3	4	5	6	7	8	-	-	-
12	0	3	4	4	6	7	7	-	-	-
13	0	3	3	4	6	6	7	9	-	-
14	0	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	-	-
15	0	2	3	3	5	6	6	8	9	-
16	0	2	2	3	5	5	6	8	8	-
17	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
18	0	1	2	2	4	5	5	7	8	8
19	0	1	1	2	4	4	5	7	7	8
20	0	1	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8

A Casters include: Arcanists (replacement for Sor/Wiz), Clerics, and Druids.

	Spell Level (B)										
CL	0	1	2	3	4	5	6
1	4	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	4	8	-	-	-	-	-
3	4	7	-	-	-	-	-
4	3	7	8	-	-	-	-
5	3	7	7	-	-	-	-
6	3	6	7	-	-	-	-
7	2	6	7	7	-	-	-
8	2	6	6	7	-	-	-
9	2	5	6	7	-	-	-
10	1	5	6	6	8	-	-
11	1	5	5	6	8	-	-
12	1	4	5	6	7	-	-
13	0	4	5	5	7	8	-
14	0	4	4	5	7	7	-
15	0	3	4	5	6	7	-
16	0	3	4	4	6	7	8
17	0	3	3	4	6	6	7
18	0	2	3	4	5	6	7
19	0	2	3	3	5	6	7
20	0	2	2	3	5	5	6

B Casters include: Bards… yeah, that’s all.

	Spell Level (C)										
CL	0	1	2	3	4
1	-	-	-	-	-
2	-	-	-	-	-
3	-	-	-	-	-
4	-	8	-	-	-
5	-	7	-	-	-
6	-	7	-	-	-
7	-	7	-	-	-
8	-	6	-	-	-
9	-	6	8	-	-
10	-	6	7	-	-
11	-	5	7	8	-
12	-	5	7	7	-
13	-	5	6	7	-
14	-	4	6	7	8
15	-	4	6	6	7
16	-	4	5	6	7
17	-	3	5	6	7
18	-	3	5	5	6
19	-	3	4	5	6
20	-	2	4	5	6

C Casters include: well, nothing in my setting. I took away the Paladin (replaced it with the Knight from PHB2 because I was sick of Lawful Stupid players trying to govern the party via Paladin levels. If it’s going to start an argument at the table so often I feel it’s disruptive, I don’t want it.) and my update to the ranger replaces his spellcasting with a full progression animal companion, mostly for flavor. I added the table just to flesh out what I’d done with the others in case someone wanted to make the costs a little harsher than the original did.

Not a lot of changes. Most were either to make casters have a few less spells to toss around at high level (I cannot comprehend free fireballs, even if it is high level play) and fluff related (like using a negative level to show the caster's life-force burning away instead of ability damage). Incidentally, I'm using Warlocks as a replacement for Sorcerer since they would not worry about Strain and I always liked the Warlock class, so the Arcanist is more-or-less a catchall for Wizards and Sorcerers that I'll hammer out once I feel this system is good to go. As of right now, think of them like Wizards.

Thanks so much to Nonsi for the inspiration, and to all of you for your help with this.