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2012-10-19, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
First off, let's lose the 2 point morality system, as despite 40k's strong focus on the Chaos/Purity scale, that's not all there is, and some things don't really make sense with regards to it. I'd suggest a 4 point scale. You have the standard Corruption/Faith, which represents falling/dealing with Chaos, or rising above it's influence/staying true to the emperor.
Then you have another scale, which needs descriptors, but involves choices that aren't dealing with Laws and Social Mores. This is where stuff like temporary Xenos alliances would fall.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
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2012-10-19, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
It's not a two-point morality system. It's a sliding scale. You either have Corruption or you don't. 'Purity' is not something you have, more like, Corruption is something you don't have. Second, Inquisitors and their followers definitely do have it. If you don't calling it 'Morality', call it 'Reputation' like from Baldur's Gate. Or Karma from Fallout. Those work fine. I have no issues with that.
I dislike Mass Effect's system where you can have Renegade and Paragon at the same time. Which didn't make any sense.
Second, being 'Pure' makes the game more difficult. But you get to live. The bonuses you get for Corrupt decisions make the game easier. That's kind of the point. But, being Corrupt means you generally die at the end.
ME's Renegade and Paragon have no meaningful difference except for dialogue options.
Then you have another scale, which needs descriptors, but involves choices that aren't dealing with Laws and Social Mores. This is where stuff like temporary Xenos alliances would fall.Have some corruptionLose some reputation. Whatever you want to call it, the system still needs to be there.
'Corruption' is a catch-all term. That definitely applies to Lawful situations. It's like saying that issuing Exterminatus doesn't involve dealing with Daemons, therefore I can do it as much as I want. Or killing civilians is legit. Think ofCorruptionThe Scale, as how much other Inquisitors and Lawful Institutions hate you.
Remember, in my version, you're not actually an Inquisitor. You don't have the badge. You're just some schmuck on the street.
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2012-10-19, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
I feel any sort of WH40k game would be infinitely better with the PC being Hero of the Imperium, Commissar Ciaphas Cain!
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2012-10-19, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
On this scale, there are only 2 'end' points-corrupt and non-corrupt. Ergo, it is a 2 point system. But that's not really what I was getting at: namely that there are more axis to the moral system you could use, ones which fit the system better.
Not sure how that got turned into 'no morality system at all'.
Sorry, that 'aren't is supposed to be 'are'. And, while the system does need to be there, having it as a 2 point system isn't necessary and isn't really true to the setting.
I'm saying that stuff like, oh, dealing with aliens in temporary alliances (something that the Imperium does in fact do), shouldn't lead you to be more susceptible to Chaos, as those are 2 largely different things.
And, keep in mind, that you aren't a normal smuck: you were part of an Inquisitor's party. You weren't one yourself, but that's several steps above normal shmuck.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2012-10-19, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
It kind of is. The other system that 40K uses is Insanity. Which doesn't quite work for a game.
I'm saying that stuff like, oh, dealing with aliens in temporary alliances (something that the Imperium does in fact do), shouldn't lead you to be more susceptible to Chaos, as those are 2 largely different things.
And, keep in mind, that you aren't a normal smuck: you were part of an Inquisitor's party. You weren't one yourself, but that's several steps above normal shmuck.
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2012-10-19, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
I like it, especially if it works like in DoW II. You are either PURUS, and amybe gain some bonuses against deamons and teh Warp (and characters may recognize your faith) or you stain yourself, even a little (at first, nobody will comment, it's basically expected), and other characters may seek you out. I'd say you could have an at least ok ending for several corruption points, but everything after, let's say, 20 points on a 1-100 scale means you bite the bullet. The REAL bad endings only come at around 50.
Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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My S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripjat Let's Play! Please give it a read, more than one constant reader would be nice!
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2012-10-19, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
As I said in my version of the game, what your ending is, is determined by your friends and the Allies you keep. "An Inquisitor most often dies at the hands of those he calls friends." And so I used that quote.
Your Corruption level does not determine your ending. Your friends determine the ending based on your actions during the game. That way, the game has as many endings as there are 'Collectible NPCs' multiplied by the number of Corruption brackets. Of course, the cynic might say that the only thing this determines is who kills you at the end. However, there are endings where you get to live. Because otherwise how can there be sequels for more money-making?
For example, the Arbitrator, when he arrests or executes you depending on your Corruption level, he's the one to pick up the Rosette at the end and becomes an Interrogator to another Inquisitor. Or, now armed with The Badge, can now go around saying that he's an Inquisitor depending on his own Corruption level.
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2012-10-20, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
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2012-10-20, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
A Chapter is self-governing. Yes. They rule a planet, or at most a system of two or three planets. Unless they're Ultramarines - and they cheated.
However, they do not plan campaigns and they do not decide where to go. Before a Chapter is even created, the High Lords of Terra note that a particular battle zone has a higher incidence on enemy contact, and they then petition for a Chapter to be founded in that area.
That area becomes that Chapter's jurisdiction. The Chapter's homeworlds, and two or three systems out. And that's about it. And they don't get to choose not to go to a battle.
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2012-10-20, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Also, as far as I know, "ruling" mostly involves drawing ressources from that planet, and theoretically being allowed to involve themselves in politics, if they bother to do so. So I'd figure they'd leave it mostly to planetary governors. IF the planet needs governing at all, SM worlds are often largely feral, to encourage survival of the strongest.
The Ultramarines are an exception, of course, because they're cool lik that. Ultramarines for life, yo.Si non confectus, non reficiat.
The beautiful girl is courtesy of Serpentine
My S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripjat Let's Play! Please give it a read, more than one constant reader would be nice!
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2012-10-20, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Some chapters crusade though- or simply keep strike cruisers patrolling the galaxy, going where they wish, looking for problems to solve.
Even within a chapter's "zone of jurisdiction"- there's still plenty of room for them to choose "not to go to a battle" when it's requested. Though declining it too much can earn the attention of the Inquisition.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-10-20, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
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2012-10-20, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
I was under the impression that the Black Templars in particular were less on a circuit and more (each separate force) "out looking for trouble".
Non-crusade chapters will have their ships return home at regular intervals- but where they go when they're not at home might be entirely at the discretion of the Chapter Master, and in some cases even the Captains of the Companies have a lot of room to choose where to look.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-10-20, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
This would probably be the only way that you could have a conflicted Space Marine in the lead role, I think - one who serves in one of the (soon-to-be) Traitor Legions, but isn't one of the truly damned ones like the World Eaters or the Night Lords.
Those guys were genuinely and universally damaged beyond repair in short order and as such didn't get much of a choice in the matter, but let's take someone else - Sons of Horus, or Death Guard - who is torn between following the order of his Primarch, whose loyalty is slowly disintegrating before his eyes, and the edict of his creator the Emperor of Man.
There's your sliding scale of morality between 'Loyalty' to the Emperor/Imperium and 'Betrayal' by following the increasingly-corrupt influence of your Primarch. From your perspective, obeying both is the 'right' choice, but it would come down to how far you're willing to go before you're forced to draw a line in the sand.... if you can at all?
And there's your multiple endings: do you Fall and become one of the Veterans of the Long War, or do you defy your Primarch in His name and become one of the few Loyal remnants of your Legion?
And everything in between; do you Fall quite a way, but some of your noble actions mark you apart from your truly degenerate brothers and you are cast out to walk the stars alone? Do you struggle to remain Loyal, but a few slips here and there sees you rejected or even killed by the Imperium? Or do you try to walk the precarious line between the two, and die in shame for failing in your duties to both sides? And numerous steps in between.
In the same vein, I don't think a fully fledged Inquisitor would fit the role because most of the time they are beyond reproach - there's more scope for moral conflict, but still not a lot as generally Inquisitors have a very unusual system of morality.
They are probably the only 'good' organisation that can reasonably commit genocide upon multiple worlds via Exterminatus, for example. In 40k canon, consigning a billion souls to death to prevent the outbreak of a single daemonic incursion is preferable, provided that it can also be justified to the satisfaction your peers as Cheesegear has explained.
As a PLAYER having to make the choice - Genocide = Good - this might be a little too abstract to explore easily.
As has already been mentioned, playing the role of an Interrogator in an Inquisitor's warband would be easier to portray. That way any moral quandries can be interpreted as your character growing into his role as a fledgling Inquisitor - those who shy away from the hard choices and try to compromise get the 'bad' endings for failing to commit to the Inquisition's cause, and those who embrace such choices are the ones who accomplish their goal; to become elevated to the full rank of Inquisitor.
And, of course, as an Interrogator a lot of responsibility and delegation is placed upon you as your are the Inquisitor's Second-In-Command, so with that sort of autonomy you still have the chance to encounter Xenos and either kill the outright or advise your Master to allow you to use them as assets, and to encounter Daemon artifacts that you might be inclined to use for your own benefit, even if in secrecy. The Ravenor books use this particular theme as a major plot point, so it's perfectly plausible to ALSO have a sliding scale of 'Puritan vs. Radicalism' side-by-side with your 'Loyalty'/'Conviction' scales.
This way, the Player can be taught the game's morality system by the Inquisitor NPC and then be left to decide how much of it they want to participate in in order to try and become an Inquisitor, as well as working towards what sort of Inquisitor you want to be in the process.
Simply starting out as an Inquisitor will either require you to already have this foreknowledge of the setting in order to get the better endings, or to have a lot of tedious conversations where a supposedly graduated Inquisitor has to be told over and over what his job is and how to do it, in the same way that an Engineer-class Commander Shepherd has to keep asking stupid question about how engines work, for the benefit of the Player.....Last edited by Wraith; 2012-10-20 at 07:01 AM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2012-10-20, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
World Eaters have had "good guys"- Angron killed most of them on Istvaan III, but there's a character in Battle for the Abyss - and the characters in The Outcast Dead were jailed on the first news of the Heresy- before they could decide. They were stationed on Terra.
I think the third Garro audiobook is supposed to have a "loyalist" World Eater.
So there's room to have a World Eater in that role.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-10-20, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Possibly, but it does make sense here. There are alien races out there who have no particular faith in the Emperor and don't follow the laws of the Imperium, but their not corrupted either.
What? Allying with Xenos is definitely against the Law, and most certainly is a social moor.Have some corruptionLose some reputation. Whatever you want to call it, the system still needs to be there.
Yes! Yes! This! Exactly! More to the point, if an SM division were obliged to operate in isolation from the larger chain of command for an extended period, they might be obliged to assume diplomatic/admin duties for which they have little training, which also raises some interesting quandaries.
Also, part of the point I'm making is that Faith/Corruption isn't about good/evil, it's solely about order(obedience/stasis/group) vs. chaos(change/individual/freedom). You can take orderly actions that are arguably evil, and chaotic actions that are arguably good... even if does make you sprout a third arm.
I don't think there inherently needs to be a particular scale or rating for these things, because the consequence of these choices is already encapsulated in... well... their consequences. If you, for example, decide to team up an Eldar farseer against a Tyranid splinter fleet, the benefit is that you're more likely to dispatch the 'nids. The downside is they might, afterwards, turn on you if your casualties are too great.
The only need I see for an explicit guage on the order/chaos scale is because it has specific metaphysical effects within the setting, with mutations and madness and wotnot.
However, what I might suggest is that Faith and Corruption be rated separately, rather than intrinsically summing to a fixed total. So, for example, disobeying an order would reduce your Faith, but wouldn't intrinsically raise your Corruption. Conversely, some actions (like gunning down defenceless civilians 'by the book') might increase your personal faith, but inflicting collateral damage on a civilian populace is a great way to make chaos cults more popular, so it also boosts your corruption.
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2012-10-20, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Sounds wonderful! Thing is, that scenario works equally well for an SM or IG commander, because they're now cut off from the larger chain of command, have to start thinking for themselves, are under extreme pressure to perform using only local resources, and lack formal authority over other aspects of the planet's military. You've just negated all the reasons that I thought were cited for particularly favouring an Inquisitor protagonist.
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2012-10-20, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Dark Heresy really is calling out for a Bioware style game. If you wanted choices in how to go about things, there's a faction of the Inquisition for just about anything. And the best part is that it's usually quite easy to belong to multiple different factions.
Amalathians: Keep the Imperium stable. Do what you can to avoid factional in-fighting, as extreme commitment to a particular end usually leads to more harm than good.
Recongregator: Introduce change in the Imperium. Social, political, ideological... shake it out of the stagnant fanaticism it has become mired in, or it will die.
Xanthite: Use the weapons of the enemy against themselves. To doom humanity because you were too idealistic to pick up that daemon sword is a failure of the worst kind. Be very, very careful with the tools you use, and you might even avoid damnation.
Oblationist: To use the weapons of the enemy is to damn oneself, and that is a price worth paying. Use any and every means at your disposal to win the day, then kill yourself and burn in hell for eternity as the consequence of placing victory above your soul.
Mono-dominant: Humanity first, foremost and only. Tolerate no deviation, no doubt or hesitation. Kill the alien, destroy the daemon and burn the heretic.
Isstvaanian: In the fires of battle does humanity and the Imperium grow stronger. Arrange for situations to create more conflict, be it military or political. The strongest will survive, the weak will be culled, and the Imperium will be made better. It's like eugenics, only with nukes.
Those are just the ones off the top of my head. Phaeonontites, Libricar, Occularians... and this before we even get into the actual Ordos and localized power structures.
You want choices, different ways to go about a situation and consequences enforced by others judging your actions? Go with the Imperial Inquisition."Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
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2012-10-20, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
For Space Marines? Absolutely not. It's really, really difficult for the local populace of a planet to mistake an eight foot tall super-human in bright, primary-coloured Power Armour for anything except a Space Marine. This ruins the fact that you're not a nobody, and since you're totally recognisable as a Space Marine, you can just go back to doing whatever you want.
Secondly, an IG Commander is completely useless as far as a game Protagonist goes. If you're trying to make a game - especially an RPG - you need to give your players choices. An IG Commander isn't really anything except for a 40+ year-old male who is only kind of skilled with a Laspistol and rhetoric.
An Inquisitor's Interrogator is literally anything you want it to be. You want to be a Guardsman? That's great! You can totally do that! But, I want to play an RPG where I'm not character-locked before I even install the game. What if I want to be a Tech-Priest? Or a Psyker? This is 40K, right? I get choices? Right? Don't I? I certainly can't be either of those if I'm already locked into being a Space Marine. Besides, I've already played the game where I'm a Space Marine, why would I want to do it again?
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2012-10-20, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
In fact, a game like this could very easily follow an altered Mass Effect format, and take inspiration from Dark Heresy, especially if following a Trilogy, or Act format.
Act One: Acolyte
In the first Act, you select several background options, like in Mass Effect. You select your home, your previous career and why you got recruited. These can effect starting 'alignments' and create some story elements.
You would be a lowly Acolyte working for your Inquisitor. There would be less freedom than in the Mass Effect games, at least regarding movement. A single planet might be best. Scintilla or Malfi would be ideal, and your job will be to root out heresy or whatever.
Act Two: Interrogator
After proving yourself as an Acolyte, your Inquisitor has placed his trust in you. You are now his Interrogator. Cue slightly off-camera torture scenes. You will now move to another planet, most likely, and will see slightly more of your Inquisitor, which would only raise more questions. Your companions may now see you as competition, or a trusted friend, depending on your actions and ambition.
Act Three: Inquisitor
You have gained the rosette, thanks to your heroics/brutality. You may now follow in the footsteps of your increasingly Radical mentor, as you may or may not have already been doing, or put him to the torch along with the servants of Chaos you've been fighting.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-10-20 at 09:26 AM.
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2012-10-20, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Huh, I learned something new today. I was under the impression that World Eaters still had the neural implants that drove them towards aggression, even if they weren't as crude or over-clocked as they are now that the Legion has turned Traitor.
While controllable outside of combat, one might expect such things to make it REALLY HARD not to go with the 'kill everyone and laugh while you do it' options of any moral dilemma....~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2012-10-20, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
The Black Templars would also be as big or bigger than the size of a pre-Heresy Legion if you got all of them in one place at one time. They're not exactly ones for following any of the rules, but they get a free pass because they're also the most insanely loyal warriors the Imperium has even by Space Marine standards.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-10-20, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Yes. A space marine isthis. You don't confuse them for anything else.
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2012-10-20, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
Perhaps, again, the problem here is that I may have miscommunicated the style of gameplay that I was imagining in the OP. Going on personal missions where there's actual, close-and-personal combat might indeed be a viable and useful option. But the specific premise is dealing with an invasion and chaos insurgency operating on a global level on an isolated world, and in order to address that effectively, you need to be in a position of command, ordering large-scale troop deployment and enforcement policies.
An IG commander can fill that role very well, with direct command over large numbers of existing ground forces and experience in large-scale troop deployments, but as you point out, has few other areas of expertise. To use the X-Com analogy, she's the most likely to stay at home, giving orders from a bunker and talking to other high-ranking NPCs (like officers, or refugee aristocrats.)
An SM officer, by contrast, has no formal authority over civilian government, so he either needs to (A) risk life and limb in personal combat, which is his first instinct (B) effectively usurp control of civilian government, which could mean serious discipline from superiors at the end of the game, or (C) rely on promises, arguments or sweet-talk to extract co-operation from other leaders. If his decisions go badly awry, his own troops, other leaders, or even the civilian masses might turn against him.
For an Inquisitor, the strengths and weaknesses are different again. He has broad authority to commandeer vital resources, but few troops under his direct command and only moderate personal combat effectiveness. No-one planetside is particularly loyal to him, so the risk of being betrayed is relatively high. On the other hand, his troops can be highly customised before play, and he's very well versed in dealing with daemons, psykers and the like- but that makes him especially corruptible.
EDIT: Again, something closer to the traditional Bioware formula could work well, given a very different starting set of situational parameters (like the example I gave of defusing inter-species tensions within the communities of a backwater colonial border-world.) But that's a whole different kettle of fish.Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-20 at 11:30 AM.
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2012-10-20, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
The newest Forgeworld book (Betrayal) makes a point of saying Angrons criteria for "must be killed at Istvaan III- can't be trusted not to remain loyal to Terra" applied to his own men- wasn't based on "have they not been implanted?"- since there were very few of such men left at that point.
Nor was it based on "Are they Terran?" - some were- but some Terrans in the World Eaters were considered suitable for going traitor. Kharn was Terran.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-10-20, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-20, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
And now I've fallen into the trap of trying to clarify or rework my original concept, when public interest has clearly moved on to a number of entirely different things.
*sigh* ...Blessings be upon you, my children.
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2012-10-20, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
I will say one thing more though: You absolutely cannot combine the idea that 'personal choices have big consequences' with 'the important events follow a pre-set sequential format'. The whole idea of a chronological trilogy defeats the purpose of the exercise. There can be no 'canonical endings' without making the protagonist's choices largely irrelevant. Please, please, please, at least take this much away with you.
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2012-10-20, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
I could see a Deathwatch game being made, maybe not in Bioware style. The Space Wolf would likely be a fan favorite of course.
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2012-10-20, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...
This is 2012. Yes, you can. Mass Effect didn't do it perfectly, but it made a fair attempt at it. The games made in the next few years could do this.
Also, if following an episodic format, it could work. The universe moves on regardless of the character's actions. Choices made by a starting character should be largely irrelevant to the galaxy as a whole. However, you can manage personal actions being changeable. Mass Effect didn't do this perfectly, as I said, but it made a decent first attempt.
One Inquisitorial Acolyte won't be doing enough to prevent the Next Big Bad Guy from appearing. Hell, after one game, regardless of his actions, he'll only find out the Big Bad even exists.
However, his actions will have personal consequences after the first Act. Maybe his friend is dead (see the admittedly hamfisted choice of 'save a friend in ME1'). Maybe he'll execute someone that could be dangerous later (see: Wrex in ME1). These are personal choices. They don't stop the Big Bad Cult from turning up in Game 2.
What I'm getting from you is, basically, "I didn't like the Mass Effect format." Personally, I was a fan. With some alteration, it could fit the 40K setting. I'd limit it to a smaller scale though, instead of an entire galaxy.
In the earlier stages, your actions will seem more personal. You'll get away with less (You aren't entirely above the law).
Once you get Inquisitorial sanction, at first, it should give you the opportunity to use this power without censure... and lure you into being too heavy-handed, and unwittingly causing terrible consequences or pissing off the wrong people.
Since the 'ultimate authority' isn't granted until late game, you don't need to worry about huge changes being non-canonical.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-10-20 at 01:15 PM.