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Thread: Word of Recall

  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Can I sig that quote? Please?
    I'd be honored can't claim sole credit though, it's a common thread in ToB rules discussions.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Malack somehow thought that Elan and Haley and Vaarsuvius, Durkon, Roy and Belkar, all just coincidentally met in the palace and formed a party on the spot. No, I would not describe him as paranoid
    Last edited by Kornaki; 2013-07-30 at 02:58 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    When you have a slam attack that inflicts negative levels, you don't study exotic grappling techniques that are only marginally better than what you can do on your own unless you're paranoid...
    Malack was not born a vampire, who became a snake. Nor was he born a High Priest, who became an adventurer. Malack could have learned all kinds of things in his life prior to becoming either. He did not build his skills to prepare for this battle; rather, he learned from previous battles.

    Perhaps Malack learned holds from Tarquin because, during their adventures to secure the continental empire, they defeated Malack's old vampire master. Perfectly plausible reason why he might have needed a grapple against an energy-drain-immune creature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I think so, yes. "Paranoid" implies that the character is putting their safety and well-being ahead of all other considerations, including reason. Malack was reasonably prepared; he was not paranoid. He balanced self-preservation with utility. Putting a backdoor into Durkon's spell cost him nothing, so he did it. But preparing his highest-level spells as defensive spells does cost you the ability to actually advance your goals.

    It's sort of a self-fulflling prophecy. If you spend your best spell slots on escape spells, then you will certainly be forced to use them. If you spend your best spell slots on offense, you might actually win. You have to take some risk in order to get ahead, even when you're a 200-year-old vampire.

    If you want paranoid, look at Ian. He's so unwilling to take the risk of trusting Elan that he would rather sit in the jail cell.
    Curses! Wrong again. Oh well. Thanks for the clarification and insight, Giant.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic. It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.
    Interesting reading, Giant. Thank you for the recommendation.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    It's sort of a self-fulflling prophecy. If you spend your best spell slots on escape spells, then you will certainly be forced to use them. If you spend your best spell slots on offense, you might actually win. You have to take some risk in order to get ahead, even when you're a 200-year-old vampire.
    True that.

    Malack already rates as a weak healer for the likes of a highish level party like Team Tarquin, even without Word of Recall. As he seems to not be enthusiastic for front line duty, within an evil party, Malack is the kind of person whose demise might be arranged, to make room for fresher and more team-useful blood.

    So the Word of Recall only sends you quickly to where the vat of Holy Water is waiting, next to the shattered remains of your coffin, sooner rather than later.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Perhaps Malack learned holds from Tarquin because, during their adventures to secure the continental empire, they defeated Malack's old vampire master. Perfectly plausible reason why he might have needed a grapple against an energy-drain-immune creature.
    I guess that's possible, but I'm not sure how likely it is. Malack was alive for a couple of centuries, whereas Tarquin is what? 50, 60 years old? I just don't imagine many thralls are allowed to wander that far from the nest while their masters are alive. Meeting up with, forming an alliance with, and plotting to overthrow your master is not something you can do when you have vampire dad breathing down your neck.
    Last edited by BenjCano; 2013-07-30 at 03:11 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    All right, then; a lich. A wizard who suspected Malack's vampiric nature. A fight in an Anti-Magic Field. Battling a zombie demonic were-golem with a spiky hat. My point is, if you're asking, "How did Malack know he would need that power for this fight?" then you're asking the wrong question. He's 200 years old; he's had plenty of time and excuses to pick up all kinds of skills for various reasons.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Reminds me of every fighter vs wizard thread on the 3.5 boards.

    The wizard always has every spell he needs to counter every tactic the fighter might use, no exceptions. You can never nail people down to a list of actual spells they prepared because that would impair their ability to plane shift the goal posts as a free action.
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    When you have a slam attack that inflicts negative levels, you don't study exotic grappling techniques that are only marginally better than what you can do on your own unless you're paranoid about encountering enemies protected from your natural attack and need a reliable way to immobilize protected spellcasters.
    This is player thinking, focusing on utility in an average adventure and not to the whole of Malack's life. He didn't learn grappling techniques as a combat option, he learned grappling techniques so his food wouldn't get away. Draining levels with a slam attack doesn't give a vampire sustenance; grappling and drinking blood does. You can level-drain a person all the way down to dead and you'll still be hungry. So this wasn't a crazy-paranoid defensive technique, it's a hunting aid. If it also had utility in combat, well, bonus.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienist View Post
    Reminds me of every fighter vs wizard thread on the 3.5 boards.

    The wizard always has every spell he needs to counter every tactic the fighter might use, no exceptions. You can never nail people down to a list of actual spells they prepared because that would impair their ability to plane shift the goal posts as a free action.
    I am particularly fond of the elaborate over-planning around Contingency. When the villain wins, they will earn the honor of being the last to be hunted down and ritually butchered to dark gods, secure in their knowledge they could have saved the world if only they were not so eager to abandon their friends at the first whiff of danger.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also:



    This is player thinking, focusing on utility in an average adventure and not to the whole of Malack's life. He didn't learn grappling techniques as a combat option, he learned grappling techniques so his food wouldn't get away. Draining levels with a slam attack doesn't give a vampire sustenance; grappling and drinking blood does. You can level-drain a person all the way down to dead and you'll still be hungry. So this wasn't a crazy-paranoid defensive technique, it's a hunting aid. If it also had utility in combat, well, bonus.
    The comic in which Durkon was drained from all his blood showed this to quite ugly effect. Really, although just being a stick figure comic, i felt disgusted by it more than I have with most vampire movies I saw.
    The combination of a bloodsucking vampire and a grappling constrictor snake is a vicious invention. I wonder why no one thought of that before. The image was thouroughly disturbing, especially for someone like me to whom it came to a surprise that Malack didn't have feet.

    Game mechanics did not cross my mind in the slightest when I read that comic. Negative energy bla bla bla.....the poor guy was strangled by a friggin blood sucking vampire snake! If somehow game mechanics do not support this being a deadly and dangerous horror, then the game mechanics are wrong, simple as that

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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Draining levels with a slam attack doesn't give a vampire sustenance; grappling and drinking blood does. You can level-drain a person all the way down to dead and you'll still be hungry. So this wasn't a crazy-paranoid defensive technique, it's a hunting aid. If it also had utility in combat, well, bonus.
    Really? Because both the blood drain and negative levels give the vampire temporary hit points. I thought that represented the vampire gaining sustenance.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Really? Because both the blood drain and negative levels give the vampire temporary hit points. I thought that represented the vampire gaining sustenance.
    Libris Mortis specifies the blood is necessary. You can level drain a Plant, that doesn't mean vampires can live off plants.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Really? Because both the blood drain and negative levels give the vampire temporary hit points. I thought that represented the vampire gaining sustenance.
    Unless eating food gives temporary hit points to mortals, I see a small flaw in that logic.
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    I think they need a balanced diet of both blood and energy.
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    I recall watching one of those old nature programs, which showed a bunch of tourists hunkered down nervously in an armor-plated car watching a pride of lions lounging in the sun, while not 10 feet away, a herd of zebra were blithely munching the grass and drinking from the river.

    What were those zebra thinking, sauntering so nonchalantly close to snarling-death?

    They were relying on their strength and numbers and speed to escape any lions who might attack them. Because a paranoid zebra that stays far away from lions all the time is a zebra that doesn't get to eat or drink and starves. It's a different calculus for the humans who know that they have a warm meal waiting for them back at the safari lodge cafeteria.

    In the real world there is always a balance that must be struck, between being safe and achieving one's goals, even for something as simple as taking a drink. Resources are limited. That which is spent to one end cannot be spent for another. So choices must be made. And those choices must be made with incomplete knowledge.

    So it is with strategy and optimization. Gamers have an advantage. They can research the rules before rolling their character, read up on the campaign setting before choosing their spells. Talk to other gamers about best methods or optimizing, and use the internet to take advantage of the collective wisdom of tens of thousands of other gamers.

    Characters in a fictional setting don't always have that wide a range of options. They have a backstory, a life, a closet's worth of historical contingencies that can give them weaknesses, blind-spots, predictable habits. These things affect the choices of fictional characters in a way that they would not for gamers.

    When it comes right down to it, spell slots are a limited resource. Choices must be made on what to use them for. A balance must be struck.

    A standard action, too, is a limited resource. For any choice you can make with it, there is the opportunity cost of what you do not do with it.

    So Malack made his choices. He considered the balance between precaution and utility, and he chose his spells.

    And at the end, he chose again. The most primal choice of all. One standard action. Fight or Flight?

    He chose.... poorly.
    Last edited by Amphiox; 2013-07-30 at 04:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Really? Because both the blood drain and negative levels give the vampire temporary hit points. I thought that represented the vampire gaining sustenance.
    Hit points =/= sustenance in D&D. You can be at full hit points but if you don't eat you will eventually starve.

    But even without that aspect, it would fly in the face of every piece of vampire fiction ever written if a vampire could live by just punching someone once in a while. At that point, is that even really a vampire anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    I think they need a balanced diet of both blood and energy.
    I am now picturing the Vampire Health Council putting out food group infographics that show new vampires how to stay fit.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Remember too, that WoR is only a must-have if there are no more pressing demands on a Cleric's spell slots. While many of us who have played a pen and paper cleric find it hard to imagine what could possibly matter more than our own survival and viewing WoR as the best way to ensure it, it may be worth considering also that Malack's own assesment of the situation may have caused him to prioritize other spells to that exact same end.

    The way I read it, there are only three very specific situations in which WoR makes the difference between life and death for Malack:

    1) he finds himself in a situation where staking is imminent, and for some reason he can't most form, e.g. someone has tagged him with Stability of Form beforehand.

    2) He is immersed in water for 3 rounds and finds himself unable to escape in any way, shape or form for those three rounds.

    3) He is caught in the sunlight with no available shelter that he can reach.

    Every other threatening situation his party faces doesn't actually threaten his existence, only the success of the mission. Furthermore, all three of those situations are exceedingly niche. Being submerged for an extended period of time in running water is of exceedingly low probability in a desert.

    Stability of Form is equally countered by Greater Dispelling, which has the added bonus of being far more multipurpose than WoR and provides the tactically more useful option of allowing him to stay in the fight and potentially secure victory for his party, whereas WoRing out at best provides his party an "at least we didn't wipe" defeat (okay for a routine dungeon crawl, less so in a high stakes play for a gate). Furthermore, Dimesional Anchor, at least as likely to crop up as SoF, negates WoR as well as other teleportation available to the party. In that case, WoR is objectively less useful than Greater Dispelling.

    For case number three, Malack already prepared more than adequate defenses for what he foresaw might happen on this front. Remember, we need to analyze what he knew when he prepared his spells. In those circumstances two castings of Protection from Sunlight provide a redundant countermeasure. He has his staff on top of that for an extra layer of redundancy. He Was prepared, as he saw it.

    Spending spell slots to counter increasingly remote scenarios ultimately would have limited his ability to be useful in winning the play for the gate. Again, WoR may have been reasonable if his only aim was to make sure nobody in his party died on this mission, but that's not what they were there for. In this light, Malack's spell choices are not only reasonable, they are arguably optimal for the situation he thought he would be facing. That it turns out not to have been what he needed does not mean he did not make a sensible, reasonable, and efficient set of choices for his spells. What brought him down was not poor spell selection, it was a the presence of three unforeseen factors that he could have survived on their own (the fight with Durkon, the Pyramid blowing up, and Nale's good timing on the betrayal). This isn't something that we should view as a momentary lapse in Malack's judgement, but rather a key and critical weakness of spell-preparing classes: the potential for getting royally buggered by the unforseen.

    As an aside, a guess at Malack's spell slots, assuming he had at least one heal, and viewing what he has already cast. Also assuming he is a level 12 cleric with a wis score between 22 and 29 (30 is almost certainly an unreasonable score, and 22 should be reasonably obtainable, so I feel this range is fairly safe), leaving him with 4 level 6th slots:

    1: Greater Dispelling (used)
    2: Heal (presumed too "core" a spell for the party cleric to neglect)
    3:????
    Domain: Harm (most generous placement of his used harm spell)

    While it is possible he could have prepared a WoR in slot 3, there are other viable choices for him. A second greater dispelling, for example, knowing that the Draketooth family likely contains a fair few casters, or a second heal under the worry that 120 HP worth of heal may not be enough, especially if Tarquin decides to "optimize for cool" with his tactical choices. Proper Spell (and feat and skill) selection depends on picking the tools that are most likely to be the most helpful in achieving your objective. Usually, spending character resources planning for a very unlikely scenario when doing so costs you the ability to do something that is more likely to be more useful is actually a poor choice.

    Given Malack's long term plans, the success of the mission with Tarquin was a goal worth pursuing to the point where simply avoiding a wipe was not a sufficient strategic goal. They are (or were) playing to win here. Malack may also have considered being prepared to keep Tarquin fighting effectively significantly more important to what they needed to accomplish than guarding against a highly remote possibility (losing all access to protection from sunlight, getting dispelled, and being deprived of shelter), especially as WoR isn't a uncounterable by any means.

    It's one thing to prepare for likely or conceivable circumstances, which Malack did. It's another to prepare for an exceedingly remote circumstance that will only happen, not just when one thing unexpected happens, but when a perfect storm of unforseen things happens, while hobbling yourself in other areas you need to cover. Nale managed to take advantage of an opportunity to create that perfect storm. That secured him the kill.

    Of course, Elan would have told Malack to take WoR, because that one in a million gap in his contingencies is guaranteed to be his downfall if he's not careful.
    Last edited by Scurvy Cur; 2013-07-30 at 05:05 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliaP View Post
    Minor rules pendantry: while describing unarmed Attack actions, the SRD then says points out "Armed" Unarmed Attacks:

    "Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. "

    This is within the description of Attack actions. So a touch attack spell would seem to be an Attack action, RAW.


    Total agreement there!
    I'll point out that there's a difference between delivering the touch attack spell (which is certainly an attack action) and casting the touch attack spell (which just appears to be a standard action as written). That is, you cast the spell and then attack. You also havbe the option of casting the spell and not attacking immediately, so the casting of the spell by definition can't be said to be an attack action.

    Still, Rich explained in the discussion thread why it went the way it did, and nothing trumps the most important rule of all: It's cool!

    I'll miss Malack though. I was looking forward to seeing interaction between him and a free-willed Durkon when he set him free.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Now I kind of want to write a story about punchpires.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Now I kind of want to write a story about punchpires.
    Because more people will show up if you say there'll be punchin' 'pires!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But even without that aspect, it would fly in the face of every piece of vampire fiction ever written if a vampire could live by just punching someone once in a while. At that point, is that even really a vampire anymore?
    It would be Morbius the Living Vampire from the 90's Spider-man The Animated Series. Energy suckers on the palms for everyone! Except Blade. He still gets teeth.

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    Don't forget, Malack may have had Yuan-ti powers he could use to escape or attack with. Then again, Malack never used deeper darkness. Then again darkness spells don't work in direct sunlight. So...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy Cur View Post

    1: Greater Dispelling (used)
    2: Heal (presumed too "core" a spell for the party cleric to neglect)
    3:????
    Domain: Harm (most generous placement of his used harm spell)
    #3 = Quickened Inflict Moderate.

    It is the killing stroke after Harm, or a quick bit of healing. We saw this employed in his fight against Nale. While that does not prove he prepared such a spell again, Malack being Malack, it is a pretty good bet that his ways vary little day to day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If you want paranoid, look at Ian. He's so unwilling to take the risk of trusting Elan that he would rather sit in the jail cell.
    I'm not sure that I'd agree he's paranoid. The evidence in the comic would hint that he genuinely is the victim of a conspiracy.

    And not trusting the son of your greatest enemy is really a fairly sensible precaution.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Not trusting your daughter just because she trusts that son is a bit paranoid, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    #3 = Quickened Inflict Moderate.

    It is the killing stroke after Harm, or a quick bit of healing. We saw this employed in his fight against Nale. While that does not prove he prepared such a spell again, Malack being Malack, it is a pretty good bet that his ways vary little day to day.
    Malack doesn't have that many spells to begin with, unless he has 22+ Wisdom. At 12th level clerics get 2 regular 6th-level spells and a domain 6th.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-07-30 at 06:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    I'm not sure that I'd agree he's paranoid. The evidence in the comic would hint that he genuinely is the victim of a conspiracy.

    And not trusting the son of your greatest enemy is really a fairly sensible precaution.
    A son that your own daughter is telling you is a good person she's known for years. He is so paranoid about the conspiracy that he refuses to believe the only person telling the truth. The hints of the conspiracy are that his brother is keeping him in the prison by tipping off the guards, and his brother is the one he's listening to.

    His paranoia is blinding him to the facts.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    I'm not sure that I'd agree he's paranoid. The evidence in the comic would hint that he genuinely is the victim of a conspiracy.

    And not trusting the son of your greatest enemy is really a fairly sensible precaution.
    If Elan arrived alone that would be reasonable, but had he stopped to listen to Haley's story he would realize (as we did) that there was no possible way even Tarquin could have planned things that far out.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    ...

    I am now picturing the Vampire Health Council putting out food group infographics that show new vampires how to stay fit.
    And I am now harboring a hope that this will be bonus material in one of the upcoming books.

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