how do YOU deal with "scared" players?

[3drinks]

You know the ones. They don't use their resources because they "might need them later". They retreat back to town to heal after every encounter even if they lost 1 - 2 hp. Those types.

What's your solution, GitP?

[Rynjin]

Give them a time limit.

[BWR]

Give them a time limit.

This really is the only option. But this is just a result of a vital element of running a world: the world goes on willy-nilly.
Tell the players straight and on no uncertain terms that the world does not stop for the PCs, and if they delay, things may well get worse.
They may fail to rescue the hostages, enemy encampments may get reinforcements and be on high alert, oncoming groups of enemies will get to their goals, etc.

The thing to be aware of as a GM when trying to run a game like this is to not hand out too great challenges on a regular basis. I have a GM who complains that we do the 15 minute adventuring day, but he fails to take into account that after one encounter we are seriously depleted and another such encounter (or even half such an encounter) would be certain death.

[daremetoidareyo]

This really is the only option. But this is just a result of a vital element of running a world: the world goes on willy-nilly.
Tell the players straight and on no uncertain terms that the world does not stop for the PCs, and if they delay, things may well get worse.
They may fail to rescue the hostages, enemy encampments may get reinforcements and be on high alert, oncoming groups of enemies will get to their goals, etc.

The thing to be aware of as a GM when trying to run a game like this is to not hand out too great challenges on a regular basis. I have a GM who complains that we do the 15 minute adventuring day, but he fails to take into account that after one encounter we are seriously depleted and another such encounter (or even half such an encounter) would be certain death.

Try seeing what happens of you give them more assurances about replaceability of spent resources and access to more HP security. Maybe their stingy due to insecurity and assuaginf that will encourage more risk taking. Go biggwe and let them rock rock out with some resounding successes.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Maybe try to give them a sense of knowing when to pause and think, for now. When they should be going for their second or third easy encounter of the day you can give out descriptions like this: "with this hunting party defeated, the goblins shouldn't have much left to push back with. If you move now you can catch them with their pants down before they can relocate the captive children."

When they're in for a bossfight while low on resources (and you don't want to sqeeuze in another easy encounter to let them naturally reach the ebs of their adventuring day, which is totally a good option, probably the best option even), you give out a more daunting description: "The forests ahead draw denser and harder to travel across. The birds are not whistling anymore, and even the wind seems to be holding her breath. Xadrivl's sharp elven senses tell him there's danger up ahead. Having second level spells for this would be nice."

When they get to slightly higher levels with a few sessions under their belt they should be getting a more natural feeling for this, or at least have more resources to avoid dying with when the going unexpectedly gets tough. Lots more hitpoints, affordable potions, maybe some scrolls or a wand, abd by then they know it's all replaceable, because the loot keeps getting richer.

I think the crux of the matter is that you have to find the right balance for your group between carrot and stick here. Punishment for not pushing hard enough alone will just make you look like a deadly hardass GM, while friendly encouragements and hints on what's ahead alone could make it look like you're running them through easy mode which could make them lose interest.

[3drinks]

When they get to slightly higher levels with a few sessions under their belt they should be getting a more natural feeling for this, or at least have more resources to avoid dying with when the going unexpectedly gets tough. Lots more hitpoints, affordable potions, maybe some scrolls or a wand, abd by then they know it's all replaceable, because the loot keeps getting richer.

See. This is the part that gets me. As a veteran player from AD&D, I've seen it all, including the Tomb of Horrors (that I've still never completed to-date, ha). There's two players in particular - and these were level 14 - that despite being a fighter type and a warlock, wouldn't even approach or expend anything. Almost like they were trying to make other PCs use their resources so they'd have their own for a rainy day. They "won", thanks to one PC carrying the fight for them, but this high of level I can't wrap my head around this fear of losing expendables.

Maybe they've just had such traumatic past campaigns with tyrannical DMs that under pay and over challenge (I'm slightly the opposite, I want you to have good loot so you can keep up with the challenges, maybe slightly better than the encounters) that it's altered their frame of mind to create a sense of PTSD.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For the resources you can either give them nothing but consumables and force them into situations where they have to use them or have a player who uses consumables regularly to good effect to "teach" them.
The other option is to talk to them ooc and explain how using consumables is often a more efficient use of wealth than buying a permanent item.

As for the retreat/15-minute day issue aside from a time limit you can also put them into situations where retreat is not an option.
A teleport trap that dumps them deep into a dungeon, being stranded on an island full of enemies or their enemies following them are all valid options.

Sure, Rope Trick etc. still allow resting anywhere (assuming they have access to it), but in that case you should warn them that giving enemies who know they're coming 8+ hours of preparation time is likely to bite them in the ass. And follow through if they insist on doing it anyway of course.
Also Rope Trick isn't exactly secure if your enemies know it's there and have casters of their own. Not an option you should overuse, but it exists.

[3drinks]

As for the retreat/15-minute day issue aside from a time limit you can also put them into situations where retreat is not an option.
A teleport trap that dumps them deep into a dungeon, being stranded on an island full of enemies or their enemies following them are all valid options.

It's not the "adventuring day" as much as it seems this overwhelming need to "hoard items because what if they never get that again?"

Setting up a portcullis that drops over the cavern entrance, for example? That sounds reasonable all in all. I suspect they'd side eye me for that and claim I'm "out to get them" though.

[Droid Tony]

For the retreat issue, you simply need to take away any place they can retreat too. So simply set the adventure in a very far away place that is isolated. Then the group can't just retreat.

And at 10th plus level you can have also sorts of fantasy places beyond just walking a couple of miles from town.

The classic lost plot works too: have the group be lost in some unknow location.

To use up consumables? Well, maybe just don't worry about it?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's not the "adventuring day" as much as it seems this overwhelming need to "hoard items because what if they never get that again?"

It's an unfortunately common mindset.
Your best bet is trying to make things difficult enough for them to use them anyway or having a player (or npc, to a lesser degree) that shows them how to be awesome with consumables.
Ooc you could try to appeal to their logic. Consumables that are never used just take up WBL after all, so it's better to use it to "make room" for more loot, assuming you factor their WBL into things.
But if they're hardcore hoarders who'd rather die than expend their consumables there's sadly not much you can do except having them drop less. It's ultimately their loss.

Setting up a portcullis that drops over the cavern entrance, for example? That sounds reasonable all in all. I suspect they'd side eye me for that and claim I'm "out to get them" though.

That's the low level version, yes. The important bit is to keep it logical instead of a deus ex machina.
A goblin tribe camped out in a cave probably won't have a portcullis (except maybe a wooden one), but they can certainly set up a nasty gauntlet of traps if your pc's decide to take a 9 hour break after killing the door guards. Or poison all their weapons. Or raid a nearby village in retaliation. Or follow the pc's back to their camp. Or just leave, taking their loot and xp with them.

And as the levels increase so do the potential responses of the people they piss off, especially once magic enters the picture.
Summoned/called creatures being sent after them, hired assassins with knowledge of their abilities (and preparations to counter them), static spell defenses like Forbiddance or Guards and Wards being set up or even scry & die tactics are all valid responses to the pc's leaving unfinished business behind to go take a nap, depending on the resources of the business in question.
If they decide to run from the adventure the adventure will come to them. With friends.
Basically put yourself into the position of the enemy in question and ask yourself what a reasonable response would be for them and do that. "Do nothing" won't come up often.

And if they claim you're out to get them you can tell them "i'm not but your enemies are" and that you're going to try and make their enemies react in a believable fashion to their actions.
It's not a video game after all. The world moves on even if the pc's aren't there to trigger a quest or cutscene.

[Calthropstu]

This really is the only option. But this is just a result of a vital element of running a world: the world goes on willy-nilly.
Tell the players straight and on no uncertain terms that the world does not stop for the PCs, and if they delay, things may well get worse.
They may fail to rescue the hostages, enemy encampments may get reinforcements and be on high alert, oncoming groups of enemies will get to their goals, etc.

The thing to be aware of as a GM when trying to run a game like this is to not hand out too great challenges on a regular basis. I have a GM who complains that we do the 15 minute adventuring day, but he fails to take into account that after one encounter we are seriously depleted and another such encounter (or even half such an encounter) would be certain death.

Had someone run a strahd campaign in 3.5 once. He had a bunch of ritual sites you had to disable that made him much stronger. And the whole adventure had to be done within a set number of days. We dismantled several sites, but strahd never seemed to get any weaker.
And, after each fight with him, we were depleted to near nothing. Turns out the gm had strahd going behind us restoring all the ritual sites we dismantled which was not include in the module. We literally accomplished nothing. The entire group rage quit when we heard this because we could not complete the adventure.
The time constraints were impossible.
My point is, make any time limit realistic and don't have extra stuff undoing the work already done.


Another thought, maybe put a timed limit on bonuses. For example, payroll is going out on friday so if you manage to raid the place on thursday, you can get that gold before it is distributed and spent.

[False God]

Time limits, unsafe places that block retreat, and "reactive dungeons" are really your only solutions here. I like the latter best because the first two will lose effectiveness as players level up and gain access to powerful magic (if they're a low-magic party, ie no full casters, then they'll remain effective for a long time), but the last one is always effective: the dungeons reinforce their defenses if the party leaves, or the enemies in the dungeons pack up and move while the party is back home healing.

Ultimately, I don't like being forced by DMs to use items, and I don't care if my players don't want to use their resources. That's their call, not mine. If it means they lose the fight, well, tough.

[D+1]

You know the ones. They don't use their resources because they "might need them later". They retreat back to town to heal after every encounter even if they lost 1 - 2 hp. Those types.

What's your solution, GitP?

Kill 'em. I mean, I can suggest and even TELL them outright, "You have stuff you can use here..." But it's their PC and their choice. If they want their PC to struggle and die without using the resources they have, then they will repeatedly have to struggle when they don't need to, and repeatedly die anyway. If I am satisfied that I'm not just blindly ambushing them, but have given them full and fair warnings and cautions about what they're facing, then chips will fall. Afterward I will point out that they died with stuff on their PC's that could have prevented it, and I'll talk again about what the expected level of challenge they have is, but they will either learn that lesson or they won't. If they're still having fun then I'm still having fun, even if their PC's aren't surviving as often as they could.

Now, I've run 3E campaigns where the players are paralyzed by choice. They have so much stuff their PC's can do they lose track of it all. They couldn't/wouldn't even level up their PC's without using PCgen because it was too much to bother tracking and in MOST combats they could stick to the tried and tested basics. However, when they needed to pull out some stops to meet a higher challenge they frequently foundered. Sometimes it was a matter of mistaking breadth for depth. They had a LOT of things they could do, but they can still only do ONE thing at a time; they get ONE basic kind action to take per round and none of the MANY things they could do was a knockout blow/"I win!" button. Sometimes it was they genuinely didn't realize they had something more effective they could do until it was too late. Buried in the MULTIPLE pages of their character sheet was an item or a normally unused ability that would have been effective, but it wasn't found soon enough, or wasn't found at all until the encounter was done. And then sometimes they value some things too highly and can't bring themselves to use it BECAUSE it is so valuable. "We're facing X now, but we could face X+1 later, and that would be the time that it was intended for us to make use of this.. not just yet."

A LITTLE of that I'll take SOME blame for as DM, for not communicating well enough what they're REALLY up against. But most of it really is just lessons THEY need to learn the hard way. And as a player I'm as guilty of it as they are. To use an analogy, I want to keep the ace up my sleeve to one day trounce the DM's straight flush with a ROYAL flush in a big, flashy, satisfying throwdown, and in the meantime keep getting beat by two pair when I could have showed three of a kind. The thing is, however, that when the DM is showing a straight flush it's because he's stacked the deck, and in any case if the DM WANTS to win, he wins.

[Sutr]

Have the people they raided raid the town or move their operations. Intelligent creatures respond.

[Doctor Awkward]

One of the larger elements of the mechanics side of Dungeons and Dragons is that of resource management. And there do exist people in this world who are just bad at that. However it's also possible that they are playing to the type of game that you are running.

The first question I would ask is why do your players feel like they have to hoard items and resources? Is it because they like that in real life or are they just reacting to the world that you are presenting them? In most of the games with our regular group when we start at low level, there's always at least one or two people who buy a Belt of Healing as part of their gear and someone who can use or UMD a wand of Cure Light Wounds. In games that I run I also assume that most enemies of average intelligence will carry a couple of healing potions so they are frequently found as loot. So we end up going into most combats at or near full hit points. If things like these are not readily available in your world then retreat is absolutely the safer option.

I would also look at the types of encounters you put them in. If, for instance, most of your combats are expressly designed according to the four encounters per day guidelines and (unless the dice decide otherwise) are apt to expand exactly 25% of their available resources, the players will strategize around that. Likewise if most of you encounters are at or above their capabilities-- perhaps because under your logic you are giving them more resources so they can handle bigger challenges-- then their best tactical option would certainly be to retreat and return at full strength from everything they can to face every challenge at their maximum possible potential.

So how do you "handle" players like these?

The same way you handle every other issue at the table: talk to your players and ask them for feedback.


Ask them after a session, "Hey guys? I noticed that you routinely retreat from the dungeons after every encounter. How come? You didn't seem that badly wounded and you had lots of resources to heal yourselves."
See what kind of feedback you get. Maybe, like my group sometimes does, they genuinely forgot that they had some of those healing items in the bottom of their pack. Maybe they think your encounters are too hard.

Also ask yourself why their play style bothers you so much. After all, as a DM your job is to facilitate fun. If the players are having fun, then you aren't doing anything wrong. If you aren't having fun running this type of game, then tell them you want to change up the structure a little bit for the next adventure by adding a ticking clock element. See how they react and keep the communication open and honest.

[Zaq]

There can be a lot of reasons why this kind of playstyle is a thing. I've certainly got a few elements of it in my own playstyle, so I'm not judging too hard. A non-exhaustive list:

• Bad experience with past GMs. If they've had experiences where there does come a "crunch time" where every single potion in your inventory matters, it's understandable why they'd want to hoard.
• It doesn't just have to be D&D/tabletop, either. There's a ton of video games and similar things where you really are encouraged to engage in absolute frugality until the last possible chance. (I personally blame growing up on EarthBound and other 16-bit-era RPGs, but plenty of modern roguelikes will also punish you if you chow down on all your resources immediately.) So again, this is understandable. You've gotta do something to convince them that it's not quite that binary in your game.
• Do your players hoard items or sell items? If they're actually selling consumables instead of just filling bag after bag with them, then the problem is that they're seeing the consumables as gold rather than as another form of resource. I don't have a one-sentence solution, but it's an angle.
• There's also the "out of sight, out of mind" problem. Most people like me and presumably like you (who are sufficiently into the game to want to GM, to spend time online talking about it, and so on) can really love the fiddly bits and can get really into every single option a character has at their respective fingertips. But a lot of other players either don't want to or don't care to keep an entire set of options (including one-off items that might be in a weird place on their character reference sheet, if there at all) in their brain at once. They want to just manage their primary stuff and not worry about auxiliary items, whether as a conscious choice or simply as a result of forgetting. It's basically impossible to force a player to choose to focus on more things simultaneously and still feel like a friendly and fun game long-term, so you've gotta make them want it (or come to terms with them not wanting it).

Dig deeper. Look at root causes and see what you can see.

[Allanimal]

I think it would be funny if they retreated from a dungeon after one easy-ish encounter, when they go back, they find the dungeon has been cleared out already by another band of adventurers. All that XP and loot gone, save a few coppers that they couldnt be bothered to haul off.

[Elkad]

I keep a reserve. But I'm expecting the DM to occasionally throw a 6th encounter at us for the day.
Or give us something we are supposed to run from, and then beat it anyway.

But I'm not a 15-minute day guy. I'm the guy yelling at the party to stop wasting time looting and push on to three more rooms while our short-term buffs are running.

Which means you can often clear way more than 4 encounters.

[Faily]

"You can't use your potion of Cure Serious Wounds if you're dead."

Honestly, if they don't use the consumables given to them, then well... drive home the point eventually.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lot of good advice here; time limits, gentle reminders, one-way dungeons. All very workable.

I'm gonna go with vicious mockery (not the 5e bard spell). If the social dynamic of your group allows it, calling your players a bunch of lilly-livers, whining about "oh noooo. We might not have everything we need to overwhelm every encounter. Our characters might struggle or *gasp* even die!" can light a fire under their butts. Seriously, you have action points, res magic is a thing, and you can replace nearly anything in a big enough city (anything that isn't unique in Sigil and even a lot that is unique in Union.)

Combined with any of the above, show don't tell approaches, it tends to bring out a more competitive aspect of a lot of players.

That aside, consider some of your assumptions about the game. Do you hand out treasure rarely enough to justify pot-hording? Are your encounters regularly near-lethal challenges that warrant great caution or cake-walks that make using pots a waste of money? Sometimes player behavior that looks over-cautious to you looks perfectly reasonable on the other side of the screen and -they're- the ones who're right about it.

[Jay R]

You know the ones. They don't use their resources because they "might need them later". They retreat back to town to heal after every encounter even if they lost 1 - 2 hp. Those types.

What's your solution, GitP?

Those are two different situations.

When the group retreats after each encounter, the solution is rivals. The party beats the goblins in the first level of the dungeon and retreats to heal. The next day, on their way out, they pass another party coming back with all the loot (and XPs) from the dungeon.

But the party who never uses their assets? That’s their business, not mine. I decide what the monsters do, what the top villain does, what the minions do, what the townsfolk do, what the animals do. I do not decide what the PCs do.

[Luckmann]

You know the ones. They don't use their resources because they "might need them later".

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

They retreat back to town to heal after every encounter even if they lost 1 - 2 hp. Those types.

Consider the dungeon ecology. Going back to town is usually a 8-12 hour trip, or more. Leaving for so long should have obvious consequences in most cases.

[Lapak]

A relatively impartial mechanic I'm growing fonder of is the Angry GM's Tension Pool.

Capsule version: every time the party burns time during an adventure, you add a 6-sided die to the Tension Pool. When they do something reckless or attention-getting, you roll all the dice in the pool. When there are six dice in the pool, you roll it and empty it.

Whenever you have reason to roll the pool, if there are any 1s showing the party suffers from some kind of complication, which could consist of any of the reactive things mentioned above: they discover the next passage has been heavily trapped, the inhabitants organize an ambush or counter-attack, doors that were open the last time they went through them have been locked and barricaded, etc.

The reason I like this is that reactive dungeons run purely on DM intuition can get pushback where the players complain you are out to get them for being smart; reactive dungeons that are triggered by random dice rolls which are in turn triggered by the party's actions both feel impartial and feel like they are in the party's control. Don't want to risk the Tension Pool getting rolled? Keep pushing on. Going all the way back to town? That's burning so much time that the pool will go to six full dice and get rolled, meaning that things are very likely but not absolutely going to be somehow worse when you get back.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Angry GM's Tension Pool

I love it. I'm stealing this, it's great.

[Jay R]

Don’t forget that the wilderness constantly adapts. The party killed six ogres at the entrance to the dungeon, and went back home to heal?

When they return, there are 12 ogres burying their kin.

Or eight gryphons eating ogre flesh.

Or six ogre zombies.

The crucial fact is this: a safe place that you aren’t guarding does not necessarily remain safe.

[Elkad]

"The party escapes into the rope trick, deep inside the dungeon. It's dark in the room below. Hours pass. Suddenly there is a flash of light, and then the whole room is on fire. Goblins, under cover of darkness, have filled the whole room with firewood, brush, and oil, and set it alight. Your rope trick has 30 minutes left, and the fire will likely burn for many hours. What do you do?"

[Remuko]

A relatively impartial mechanic I'm growing fonder of is the Angry GM's Tension Pool.

Capsule version: every time the party burns time during an adventure, you add a 6-sided die to the Tension Pool. When they do something reckless or attention-getting, you roll all the dice in the pool. When there are six dice in the pool, you roll it and empty it.

Whenever you have reason to roll the pool, if there are any 1s showing the party suffers from some kind of complication, which could consist of any of the reactive things mentioned above: they discover the next passage has been heavily trapped, the inhabitants organize an ambush or counter-attack, doors that were open the last time they went through them have been locked and barricaded, etc.

The reason I like this is that reactive dungeons run purely on DM intuition can get pushback where the players complain you are out to get them for being smart; reactive dungeons that are triggered by random dice rolls which are in turn triggered by the party's actions both feel impartial and feel like they are in the party's control. Don't want to risk the Tension Pool getting rolled? Keep pushing on. Going all the way back to town? That's burning so much time that the pool will go to six full dice and get rolled, meaning that things are very likely but not absolutely going to be somehow worse when you get back.

that is a really neat idea. still def something id warn the party about before a campaign (which i assume you do). its pretty clever.

[Lapak]

I love it. I'm stealing this, it's great.

For a guy whose whole schtick is "I know better than you," he has some genuinely good ideas.

If it's a physical tabletop, he recommends keeping the Pool dice in something you can add to as obviously as possible, like a small glass fishbowl, so it's very clear when dice are going in and it's easy to pick up and roll the pool whenever you need.

And yeah, this is something that's effective because you make it clear to the players what's going on ahead of time; the point is to get the players to be the ones pushing the pace and they only do that if they get the point.

[Fizban]

A relatively impartial mechanic I'm growing fonder of is the Angry GM's Tension Pool.

I don't particularly like Angry's tension pool, simply because it's not as revolutionary as he'd like it to be (it's fine, I'd rather just keep and exercise full control). Why? Because random encounters are already supposed to exist, as do dungeon timetables.

Of course, the existence of random encounters is part of the reason some parties are terrified of fighting too much. You should always hold something back, because you might be attacked while resting, or on your way to resting, or just by reinforcements. And learning when to drain the tank all the way is absolutely an adventuring skill. The problem is inconsistent and/or adversarial DMs who punish you for doing so by deciding to spring extra enemies on you with fiat because you're weak, or who make an encounter that clearly looks like the last wave and then surprise there's another wave!

But because the Tension Pool is deliberately triggering events based on player actions, it's super weird if those events are things that should not have had any influence from player actions, such as "random" cave-ins or the arrival of reinforcements which weren't present in the dungeon already. And combining the Tension Pool with a dungeon timetable (and plotting nearby enemies, etc) just means its a re-skinned random encounter table.

Most of the power of the Tension Pool is just that you're specifically communicating to the players that their time-wasting is causing dice to be rolled. An adversarial (or inconsistent) DM could be trying to hide when they're rolling dice behind the screen, so they can get those stupid players for standing around in their dungeon, so, don't do that? When you roll for random encounters do so loudly and obviously, and if it interrupts what they were talking about then hey, they just dramatically realized they were being loud/wasting time right before something happened. Or didn't.

For time-only conversion's sake, note that the net chance of rolling at least one 1 on six 6 sided dice is about 67%. I can't remember if Anrgy was using 10 minutes or 1 hour, but this means that when the tick hits 6, something will probably happen, much more so than a traditional random encounter table. And this also means it can be gamed, hard, by a party that gets *out* on the count of 5 (causing the exact opposite of desired behavior)- unless you go back on the concept, and decide that leaving also causes something to happen anyway.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, I'm a scared player but I have to fight no matter how scared I am.