New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 7 of 13 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 385
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Saint Louis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Neither the rules for Bonus actions nor the feat specify that the trigger which allows you to take that bonus action both have to occur in the same turn though. All it says is that you can choose when during your turn (which doesn't say same turn) to take the action, this just means that it has to be your turn and not someone else's.
    Really? You are really trying to argue this?

    You can't be serious.

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    Not really. I can load a gun insanely fast but I can't run a 40 yard dash in under... Well my fastest time was probably around 8 seconds haha...

    It's all about training and if this is possible in the real world then why wouldn't it be possible in a fantasy setting?

    Having speed and quickness in one task does not automatically give it to you in another task.
    It's really not possible in the real world. Even firing once or twice every six seconds stretches believability. Firing eight or even ten times in six seconds requires either mechanical changes to the normal crossbow apparatus or else superhuman speed. And when I say superhuman speed, I mean the actual time it takes the crossbow to fire after you pull the trigger would be the slowest part.

    Remember that firearms are entirely different from crossbows. Even those trick shots who can fire revolvers faster than the eye can process can only do so because they're relying on two simple movements they can drill into their muscle memory. You need a minimum of five or six much larger movements to fire a hand crossbow, and that's still treating the drawing back as being much simpler than it actually is.

    If a player spends a little gold to get a mechanical crossbow that simplifies reloading, I have no problem with his firing eight times in a few seconds with this feat. Accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle eight times in six seconds - potentially at multiple targets - would be extremely impressive all on its own. Adding in the reloading speed of a crossbow is just... it boggles the mind. It creates a situation in which your character is achieving such high speeds that he might as well just throw the crossbow bolt.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2014-12-03 at 03:12 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Neither the rules for Bonus actions nor the feat specify that the trigger which allows you to take that bonus action both have to occur in the same turn though. All it says is that you can choose when during your turn (which doesn't say same turn) to take the action, this just means that it has to be your turn and not someone else's.
    You seem to be ignoring "You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don’t have a bonus action to take." The feat in question grating the bonus action states "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." No using the attack action and attacking with a one handed weapon, no bonus action on that turn.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Saint Louis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    It's really not possible in the real world. That's the problem. Even firing once or twice every six seconds stretches believability. Firing eight or even ten times in six seconds requires either mechanical changes to the normal crossbow apparatus or else superhuman speed. And when I say superhuman speed, I mean the actual time it takes the crossbow to fire after you pull the trigger would be the slowest part.

    Remember that firearms are entirely different from crossbows. Even those trick shots who can fire revolvers faster than the eye can process can only do so because they're relying on two simple movements they can drill into their muscle memory. You need a minimum of five or six much larger movements to fire a hand crossbow, and that's still treating the drawing back as being much simpler than it actually is.


    If a player spends a little gold to get a mechanical crossbow that simplifies reloading, I have no problem with his firing eight times in a few seconds with this feat. Accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle eight times in six seconds - potentially at multiple targets - would be extremely impressive all on its own. Adding in the reloading speed of a crossbow is just... it boggles the mind. It creates a situation in which your character is achieving such high speeds that he might as well just throw the crossbow bolt.
    My point isn't that I can shoot insanely fast but that loading a gun is different than running. You can be insanely fast at one aspect but insanely slow at another.

    Plus this is a fantasy game where you can fire however many shots with a crossbow with the proper training. This isn't real life where we have specific limitations. Within the game they can break those limitations without technology.

    No mechanical changes needed, though if you made those mechanical changes I would say it would give the wielder the Crossbow Expert feat for free. And then all you did was put a price tag on a feat.

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    It's really not possible in the real world. That's the problem.
    This is a fantasy elf game with magic, how in the hell is that a problem? Are only magic users able to do "impossible" things in your version of D&D?

    No, no amount of "that isn't possible in real life" is ever going to be valid in D&D. Fall speed is linear, giant creatures ignore the square-cube law of muscle mass, and people can do ****ing magic. Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiantOctopodes View Post
    You seem to be ignoring "You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don’t have a bonus action to take." The feat in question grating the bonus action states "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." No using the attack action and attacking with a one handed weapon, no bonus action on that turn.
    Nowhere does that say it has to be on the same turn. Literally nowhere. And to Morbo yes I am dead serious, it's not different then the logic that lets you fire off the same bow later in the turn after changing the conditions.
    For that matter why can't I phase through walls and steel? The rules in the PHB only would make it count as difficult terrain.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    The feat also let's you ignore the loading quality.
    What does the loading quality have to do with being loaded. The quality just says that you can only reload once per turn so the feat just means that you can potentially reload more then once, it doesn't say anything about not needing to load ammunation.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    My point isn't that I can shoot insanely fast but that loading a gun is different than running. You can be insanely fast at one aspect but insanely slow at another.
    And my point was that even people who can be insanely fast at a specific task can't approach the speeds necessary to pull this off. The best-drilled troops who used crossbows could fire twice a minute. The game's normal rules allow characters to fire five times faster than that, which stretches believability. Firing fifty times faster than anyone ever has requires superhuman abilities, and I want to know why these superhuman abilities only show up when reloading crossbows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    This is a fantasy elf game with magic, how in the hell is that a problem? Are only magic users able to do "impossible" things in your version of D&D?

    No, no amount of "that isn't possible in real life" is ever going to be valid in D&D. Fall speed is linear, giant creatures ignore the square-cube law of muscle mass, and people can do ****ing magic. Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise.
    {scrubbed}

    My only issue, as I've said before, is with the internal consistency. Why is this character capable of superhuman speed, but only within the confines of loading crossbows?
    Last edited by Savannah; 2014-12-05 at 09:55 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    It's really not possible in the real world. Even firing once or twice every six seconds stretches believability. Firing eight or even ten times in six seconds requires either mechanical changes to the normal crossbow apparatus or else superhuman speed. And when I say superhuman speed, I mean the actual time it takes the crossbow to fire after you pull the trigger would be the slowest part.

    Remember that firearms are entirely different from crossbows. Even those trick shots who can fire revolvers faster than the eye can process can only do so because they're relying on two simple movements they can drill into their muscle memory. You need a minimum of five or six much larger movements to fire a hand crossbow, and that's still treating the drawing back as being much simpler than it actually is.

    If a player spends a little gold to get a mechanical crossbow that simplifies reloading, I have no problem with his firing eight times in a few seconds with this feat. Accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle eight times in six seconds - potentially at multiple targets - would be extremely impressive all on its own. Adding in the reloading speed of a crossbow is just... it boggles the mind. It creates a situation in which your character is achieving such high speeds that he might as well just throw the crossbow bolt.
    Please note that 8 or even 10 attacks would require using an action surge and/ or magic to achieve. It's not meant to be physically possible at that point. Just like a Rage pushes Barbarians to superhuman heights (to where even though they specifically *can't* use magic while raging, they *can* fly across an 80 ft chasm), or a Bard's inspiration is somewhat boosting their inner resolve, self belief and determination, and somewhat pseudo-magical, the fighter's action surge is somewhat pseudo-magical as well. 10 would require you to also have magic going that quite specifically boosts your speed to super human levels. Having an issue with the 3-4 achievable normally (1.5 second per shot) is totally fine, but keep in mind that any random guy off the street fires these crossbows at 6 seconds per shot. Compare more accurately with a bolt action rifle than a crossbow as it exists in our world. Is it unreasonable that with extensive training, someone would be able to achieve 3-4x the rate of fire of someone totally inexperienced with the weapon?

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Nowhere does that say it has to be on the same turn. Literally nowhere. And to Morbo yes I am dead serious, it's not different then the logic that lets you fire off the same bow later in the turn after changing the conditions.
    For that matter why can't I phase through walls and steel? The rules in the PHB only would make it count as difficult terrain.
    So your arguing that having ever fulfilled the requirements for a bonus action allows you to take one at whatever point you choose in the future? No DM worth his salt would ever let that fly.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    I think they reload crossbows by hand in D&D - Grab string, pull back to hook.

    Or they use physics-defying winches. Pump Action Crossbows FTW.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-12-03 at 03:26 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiantOctopodes View Post
    Please note that 8 or even 10 attacks would require using an action surge and/ or magic to achieve. It's not meant to be physically possible at that point. Just like a Rage pushes Barbarians to superhuman heights (to where even though they specifically *can't* use magic while raging, they *can* fly across an 80 ft chasm), or a Bard's inspiration is somewhat boosting their inner resolve, self belief and determination, and somewhat pseudo-magical, the fighter's action surge is somewhat pseudo-magical as well. 10 would require you to also have magic going that quite specifically boosts your speed to super human levels. Having an issue with the 3-4 achievable normally (1.5 second per shot) is totally fine, but keep in mind that any random guy off the street fires these crossbows at 6 seconds per shot. Compare more accurately with a bolt action rifle than a crossbow as it exists in our world. Is it unreasonable that with extensive training, someone would be able to achieve 3-4x the rate of fire of someone totally inexperienced with the weapon?
    That's... actually a very good point. Thanks for that.

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    So your arguing that having ever fulfilled the requirements for a bonus action allows you to take one at whatever point you choose in the future? No DM worth his salt would ever let that fly.
    Yes that's my point, I'm trying to showcase how messed up the logic of being able to fire the bow more then once is via the feat by extending it further. The rules don't say anything against it so why not! It's fantasy so why does common sense matter!


    I mean what even is a crossbow? The rules don't clarify so is it just a large sponge I bounce things off of?
    Last edited by Regulas; 2014-12-03 at 03:27 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise.
    You made this same argument earlier in the thread, but I believe you missed my reply: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=98.

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    I mean what even is a crossbow? The rules don't clarify so is it just a large sponge I bounce things off of?
    I'm pretty sure there's a picture in the book showing what a crossbow looks like. Pictures are just a simple way of condensing a thousand words of rule text.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's a picture in the book showing what a crossbow looks like. Pictures are just a simple way of condensing a thousand words of rule text.
    Is there a title beside the picture saying that that is a crossbow?

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    {scrubbed}
    My only issue, as I've said before, is with the internal consistency. Why is this character capable of superhuman speed, but only within the confines of loading crossbows?
    {scrubbed}

    And second, ever seen an experienced piano player play a fast section? Their hands move pretty damn fast. Hell, in the real world people can throw baseballs at 90mph. Does it really seem at all inordinate that someone in a fantasy game can reload a crossbow pretty quick?

    And I don't see you arguing that playing a mobile, wood elf monk, which actually does let you run like The Flash, should get more attacks as his speed increases. Know why? Because that isn't what the monk trained to do.
    Last edited by Savannah; 2014-12-05 at 09:56 PM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    pwykersotz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Western Washington
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    This thread is amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    It's a clever use of mechanics. Some people around here will claim ANYTHING clever is abusive exploitation, cheese, and against RAI. See BM riding companion, mounted combatant rules in general, wizard's illusory reality with adamantine, dueling polearm master quarterstaff with shield, and basically anything having to do with familiars.

    Edit: oh, and fabricate. Some people around here want to strike it from the spellbooks, and drop rocks on any player who uses it.
    I think there's a line between clever and abusive. For me here is where that line is: If a specific interpretation and use of a mechanic gives you utility or power beyond any other equivalent level spell or class feature, or if it purports to automatically grant a resource normally controlled by the GM, it's abusive. If it provides utility or power that is in line with or less than equivalent level spells or class features, it's clever.

    For example, Simulacrum armies: Abusive.
    Using Cone of Cold to make an ice bridge across a lake: Not abusive.
    Firing the same crossbow twice: Probably not abusive.
    Using the dev's wording to apply the feat to spells: Abusive.

    My 2cp.
    Attacking the darkness since 2009.

    Spoiler: Quotes I like
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal regarding What would a Cat Lord want? View Post
    She wants the renegade Red Dot brought to her court in chains.
    Quote Originally Posted by pwykersotz regarding randomly rolling edgelord backstories View Post
    Huh...Apparently I'm Agony Blood Blood, Half-orc Shadow Sorcerer. I killed a Dragons. I'm Chaotic Good, probably racist.

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Yes that's my point, I'm trying to showcase how messed up the logic of being able to fire the bow more then once is via the feat by extending it further.
    That only works if the absurd conclusion you're trying to demonstrate follows clearly from the proposition you disagree with. Here, it doesn't: nothing in the interpretation that the triggering crossbow can also take the bonus action even slightly suggests that it should be possible to take the bonus action in a later round.

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    You made this same argument earlier in the thread, but I believe you missed my reply: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=98.
    No, I saw it. It's just wrong. D&D physics and real world physics are different. Nobody can debate that point with a straight face. Show me an example where the physics are identical, and I'll show you why you're wrong.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Nowhere does that say it has to be on the same turn. Literally nowhere. And to Morbo yes I am dead serious, it's not different then the logic that lets you fire off the same bow later in the turn after changing the conditions.
    For that matter why can't I phase through walls and steel? The rules in the PHB only would make it count as difficult terrain.
    The difference here is that while the rules don't say that you can't phase through walls, or (per your logic) store up 10 rounds worth of actions, then use them all at once to get a 10 action turn (or better yet, travel in combat time all the time, so since you've moved 5 miles prior to this encounter, that's gotta be what, over 100 actions you have stored up when combat starts? And as an added bonus, you can never be surprised, since you're already in combat, and thus it isn't the first round), or things of that nature, the rules specifically say you can take a bonus action at a time of your choosing during your round if granted it by an ability. I'm not arguing that "the rules don't say I can't", I'm arguing that "the rules say I can". Also, if you're going to to complain about my logic, get it right- the worse one by far would be to attack someone with a sword, walk somewhere, drawing your hand crossbow while doing so, and since it was already loaded, firing it using the granted bonus action, as it was not even in your hand when you made the attack (as after all, that is *not* listed as a requirement of gaining the bonus action).

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    No, I saw it. It's just wrong. D&D physics and real world physics are different. Nobody can debate that point with a straight face. Show me an example where the physics are identical, and I'll show you why you're wrong.
    Have you never read a roleplaying game book's first few pages? You keep mistaking the GUI for the processor.

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    pwykersotz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Western Washington
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    No, I saw it. It's just wrong. D&D physics and real world physics are different. Nobody can debate that point with a straight face. Show me an example where the physics are identical, and I'll show you why you're wrong.
    That's pretty harsh. I thought it was an eloquent and rational point.
    Attacking the darkness since 2009.

    Spoiler: Quotes I like
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal regarding What would a Cat Lord want? View Post
    She wants the renegade Red Dot brought to her court in chains.
    Quote Originally Posted by pwykersotz regarding randomly rolling edgelord backstories View Post
    Huh...Apparently I'm Agony Blood Blood, Half-orc Shadow Sorcerer. I killed a Dragons. I'm Chaotic Good, probably racist.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    That only works if the absurd conclusion you're trying to demonstrate follows clearly from the proposition you disagree with. Here, it doesn't: nothing in the interpretation that the triggering crossbow can also take the bonus action even slightly suggests that it should be possible to take the bonus action in a later round.
    I disagree that the condition to use the bonus crossbow attack is only decided when you make the bonus action, if that's the case then I would ask why I even have to make it in the same round.

    When you make the initial attack if you don't have the loaded bow in hand then I would argue you don't get a bonus attack at all to begin with so can't decide to take it later on and thus would not be able to modify the conditions.

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Everybody arguing with everybody here. Just drop it and ask your DMs, folks
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2014-12-03 at 03:40 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    No, I saw it. It's just wrong. D&D physics and real world physics are different. Nobody can debate that point with a straight face. Show me an example where the physics are identical, and I'll show you why you're wrong.
    I'm not trying to argue that they're identical. I'm trying to argue that treating the rules as a (very coarse) model of real world physics is a legitimate playstyle, and that the viewpoint of those who subscribe to that interpretation is worth hearing. Statements such as "Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise." act only to categorically dismiss those viewpoints.

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I'm not trying to argue that they're identical. I'm trying to argue that treating the rules as a (very coarse) model of real world physics is a legitimate playstyle, and that the viewpoint of those who subscribe to that interpretation is worth hearing. Statements such as "Your physics has no place in D&D when the text says otherwise." act only to categorically dismiss those viewpoints.
    Notice the part I bolded. If you're changing the rules, not adding to but changing them, just to suit your ideas of real world physics, then you're not playing D&D.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    I disagree that the condition to use the bonus crossbow attack is only decided when you make the bonus action, if that's the case then I would ask why I even have to make it in the same round.

    When you make the initial attack if you don't have the loaded bow in hand then I would argue you don't get a bonus attack at all to begin with so can't decide to take it later on and thus would not be able to modify the conditions.
    Yours is indeed a valid interpretation of the RAW, but so is the alternative.

    Your interpretation has the notable advantage of giving effect to the word "loaded". Giving effect to all the terms is an important interpretive principle. However, it is also true that one tries to avoid interpretations that are better expressed by alternative formulations. In this case, your interpretation could have been better expressed by following the two-weapon fighting phraseology: "with... a [crossbow] that you're holding in the other hand." This weighs against your interpretation. Because that alternative formulation is found in the same ruleset under analogous conditions, your interpretation is also weakened by another important interpretative principle: different formulations should be interpreted differently.

    The alternative interpretation renders the word "loaded" superfluous, but doesn't otherwise have any interpretative problems. It has the additional advantage of reading the text narrowly, although that's less of an inherent benefit when interpreting RPG rule text.

    Because both interpretations are valid, I'd argue the text is ambiguous. As it happens, we have a tweet from a developer clarifying that the word "loaded" was indeed superfluous. You're welcome to consider that unimportant to textual analysis, but don't be surprised when a large portion of the community relies on that expression of intent to resolve the ambiguity.

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    I disagree that the condition to use the bonus crossbow attack is only decided when you make the bonus action, if that's the case then I would ask why I even have to make it in the same round.

    When you make the initial attack if you don't have the loaded bow in hand then I would argue you don't get a bonus attack at all to begin with so can't decide to take it later on and thus would not be able to modify the conditions.
    I get the point you're trying to make, I really do, even if I disagree with it. And again, as long as you're consistent with it that's fine, which means that Bards can only use Battle Magic if they already have a weapon in their hand when casting a spell, and can only make the weapon attack with that specific weapon they're holding, as you're arguing you must be ready to use the bonus action *right then* even if you're not going to use it, and can't change anything to be able to take advantage of the granted bonus action.

    That's a houserule, but hey, whatever works for your table.

    Bonus actions are their own thing, distinct from whatever actions or abilities spawned them. They are actions in and of their own right. You're saying that someone can make an attack with a melee weapon, walk across a room, tie a quick knot (but only with one hand, can't put down that crossbow or you'll lose the action!) and then take a shot with the loaded hand crossbow they've been holding this whole time, but they can't attack with a melee weapon, draw a loaded hand crossbow from a holster, and fire it right into the same person in front of them. That, even though they both met the requirements to gain the bonus action (attacking with a one handed melee weapon), because the person was not ready to use said bonus action *right then* they lose it. Beyond not being supported by the rules whatsoever, I personally find that a little silly, but hey, whatever works for you.

    Edit: Xetheral, I wish there was a "like" button for your post.
    Last edited by GiantOctopodes; 2014-12-03 at 04:08 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Notice the part I bolded. If you're changing the rules, not adding to but changing them, just to suit your ideas of real world physics, then you're not playing D&D.
    Thanks for clarifying! If one treats the rules as a model, then I think it makes perfect sense to choose to interpret ambiguities in that model by relying on knowledge of the thing (i.e. physics) being modeled. I don't see how the resulting interpretation is any less "D&D" than any other method of resolving ambiguities.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    pwykersotz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Western Washington
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Notice the part I bolded. If you're changing the rules, not adding to but changing them, just to suit your ideas of real world physics, then you're not playing D&D.
    That has implications far beyond the thread as I've read it so far (and little to do with Xetheral's point). Are you suggesting that I'm not playing D&D if I rule that a fall from over 400' is instant death and that crossbows can only ever fire once before breaking? Or are you hyperbolizing the specifics of accepting that trying to make a combat system that never strains physics is improbable?
    Last edited by pwykersotz; 2014-12-03 at 04:08 PM.
    Attacking the darkness since 2009.

    Spoiler: Quotes I like
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal regarding What would a Cat Lord want? View Post
    She wants the renegade Red Dot brought to her court in chains.
    Quote Originally Posted by pwykersotz regarding randomly rolling edgelord backstories View Post
    Huh...Apparently I'm Agony Blood Blood, Half-orc Shadow Sorcerer. I killed a Dragons. I'm Chaotic Good, probably racist.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •