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Thread: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
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2008-05-05, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Having once regularly played M:TG in the past, I kinda knew this before reading up about it. So, I'm not really phased by this - its just an explicit example of how WotC is composed of a bunch of ********s.
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2008-05-05, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Am I the only person who likes playing a Blaster wizard? They're the person to turn to when it comes down to laying down the hurt on a mob, after all, and like hell I'm going to let the Fighter and Rogue take off small bits of enemy HP when I can hit the baddies with a Maximized Fireball or two before they even walk over to melee range. Battlefield control for me means Wall of Ice on one side, Wall of Ice on the other, and a corridor of Delayed Blast Fireballs in between, World War I style.
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2008-05-05, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
I am half convinced this is just an after the fact cover up for crappy game design.
In a purely competative (and lets not forget collectable) game like MtG there is a purpose to imbalance between cards and combo's.
In a role playing game players are supposed to be a team, hell even the DM is on side as it were. We just paid cash money for second rate never to be utilised content, how is that good? For every pat on the back you are giving to your clever gamers you are giving a slap in the face to the rest of your players (no doubt to be referred to as idiot gamers)
Just because you might consider yourselves in the former catagory, doesn't make the implied sneering at what is possibly the large majoity of their customers any more palletable.
Poor show if true, pathetic cop out if not
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2008-05-05, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Am I the only person who likes playing a Blaster wizard? They're the person to turn to when it comes down to laying down the hurt on a mob, after all, and like hell I'm going to let the Fighter and Rogue take off small bits of enemy HP when I can hit the baddies with a Maximized Fireball or two before they even walk over to melee range. Battlefield control for me means Wall of Ice on one side, Wall of Ice on the other, and a corridor of Delayed Blast Fireballs in between, World War I style.
Only compared to what else a wizard can do. And we know who your post is from, you don't have to tell us Every. Single. Time.
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2008-05-05, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
I'm not surprised at all.
I just am really glad for ToB, which does a pretty good job of making all the roles insane monsters in combat.
However, I do have to say that so long as everyone is consistent on the power level, it can still be fun. My players meet and discuss their builds together to make sure everyone can contribute equally, and they know I operate under one primary rule that they are explicitly told: Start core and expand however you want. But anything you access, I access. If they stick with sword and board and blasty wizard's that's what they'll face. If they break out CoDzilla, ToB, and Batman, you can bet that the enemies will use it against them. And they know I am one of the better optimizers in the group.
I have yet to have a game that unbalanced when I told them that.
Maybe I just have especially nice players.
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2008-05-05, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Am I the only person who likes playing a Blaster wizard? They're the person to turn to when it comes down to laying down the hurt on a mob, after allTime travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-05-05, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
I must say I'm actually surprised by this one. While I wasn't so sure about the bigger faults, I figured the feat recommendations and such in the book were just the product of naivete or insufficient playtesting. The thought that they were put there to intentionally screw people who followed their recommendations... That burns me up. The Toughness example in particular annoys me. I mean, sure, it's pretty obvious if you take a closer look at the feat lists that it's terribly subpar, but to think that when they recommended it in the book they were doing so with the knowledge that it was subpar...
I don't know how much say the other authors of the PHB had in this, so I'm not going to blame them... yet... but Monte Cook just lost favor in my eyes.Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
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2008-05-05, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Actually, does anyone notice that the two quotes say subtly different things? The latter seems to be saying "some choices are better than others, smart players can tell the difference, and this selection process will enhance the experience for them." The former seems to be suggesting that "you've got to plead CharOp for help or spend weeks and weeks pouring through rulebooks or all your gamer buddies will laugh at you". I mean, I can see where he's comming from, but those aren't really the same thing. Half of my gamer buddies are still playing with Timmy Cards, and everyone manages to have fun anyway.
Also, it appears they're talking about subtle balance issue (for example, how Trip and Sunder are almost invariably better than Disarm, and how Mithril Bucklers can be worn by wizards for free), rather than the big issues of Fighters sucking, Wizards and CoDzillas ruling, etc. I do think WotC screwed up on those issues, but I do believe that was an accident. On the other hand, I'm fully in favour of some approaches being better than others - half the fun for me as a player is finding new builds and figuring out what works best.
Basically, I think there's a difference between "better/worse" and "broken". I think there's a lot of broken content, but I think what they're talking about is the better/worse catagory, and I support them in that.
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2008-05-05, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
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2008-05-05, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Russian roulette.
...
I'm not moved. The inherent DnD imbalance is because of the playtesters issue stated above. And WotC's need of producing splatbooks (which for some inexplicable reason always aim to one up the core) doesn't do wonders for balance either. This is just the icing on the cake.
And a touch of elitism does wonders for one's ego. Publishers are people too.Founder of the Fanclub of the (Late) Chief of Cliffport Police Department (He shall live forever in our hearts)
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Shameless shill:
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2008-05-05, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
It's been said, but I will reiterate. Feats and spells having some that suck and others that rock? Not a problem. Entire classes being sucky, no matter how you run them? Lame. (And, again, I doubt this is what Monte Cook meant, but it still needs saying. Over and over again.)
The Bear is Back.
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2008-05-05, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Even that is rewarding with enough skill.
"For the Overmind!"
On the article...
Some decisions were just a bit too stupid. I mean, really... I don't see a significant amount of stuff in the books played, ever. They are just wasted space. Even the 'bad players' know to avoid some of the stuff.
If you are going to make crap in books, at least perfume it.Avatar by Alarra
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2008-05-06, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Here's my thoughts after reading that.
1) D&D is a cooperative, not competitive game.
2) Believe it or not, a lot of new players actually DO listen to advice given in a rulebook and expect it to, you know, be marginally useful. Intentionally going out of your way to dupe new players into picking bad options is not a good way to promote a game.
3) Every inch of space you wasted with those crappy feats, options, and bogus design suggestions could have instead been used for better and more interesting character options or even clarifications on certain rules write-ups so as to not make them confusing and easily exploitable.
4) Don't do that again, it's stupid.
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2008-05-06, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
/signed
There is a huge difference between the types of "intentionally "sub-optimal" options" represented in D&D 3.5.
Power Attack plus Two-Handed Weapon is more potent than Power Attack plus sword and board.
Spiked Chain plus a huge investment in feats gives a Fighter a lot of options and potent advantages in combat.
Two-Handed Sword is marginally better than Battleaxe by the numbers.
All of the above are Easter Eggs that a skilled or experienced player can use to make their character more effective than the character of the player sitting next to them who hasn't yet figured these things out.
But, selecting Monk or Fighter as your character class being an intrinsically inferior option to selecting a Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Priest as your character class, that's not an Easter Egg for the skilled players to find. What it is is not just poor, but incompetent game design.
That's called escalation. What better way to ensure that your latest addition to the game is purchased, than to make owning it provide an advantage to those who purchased it? It's been done by many other companies before, probably most famously by Games Wreckshop who re-release the same games every few years and then publish rules for special units in their house organ White Dwarf which are more potent than anything in the core game, as well as a steady stream of supplements containing new races, weapons, leaders, and units all more potent than those published in the core system. It wrecks the game over time, and so they are forced to do it all again after the cycle of supplements has been exhausted yet again. Of course since this is their business model they don't mind at all that the imbalance they deliberately craft into their games over time forces a reboot. They want to sell you the new release of the core rules again, after all.--
Cheers,
Kompera
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2008-05-06, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
I think selling you the new redesigned model set to go with the rules update is more central to their business model. Especially since they started selling the core rulebooks separate from the starter game kits.. you get a $50-$60 hardback copy of the rules that they hope leads into hundreds of dollars of model purchases.[/tangent]
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2008-05-06, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Shame on you. You gain three negative levels for that. (worst band ever BTW. PM me if you want real reasons why)
Anyway: OMG? Could it be true that WoTC created something that truly only benefits those willing to go out of their way to 'master' it?
I quit MTG because it practically only cattered to the "hardcore" crowd. I like to beleive D&D is innocent. So, in that fasion, I am going to remove all the information gained from this thread from memory.The Necroswanson's Deviantart.
Freemanatar by Phase, thank you ever so much.
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2008-05-06, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
man what
You realize that clerics, druids, and wizards are all core, right? Of the Big Five classes, three are from the core book.
While we're at it, Shapechange and Polymorph (the only spells so strong WotC gave up on them) are also core. And core has multiple arbitrarily-high-power loops.
There is no book (except Serpent Kingdoms, which gave us Pun-Pun) that is worse balanced than Core.
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2008-05-06, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
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2008-05-06, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Sure, we do. And Greater Celerity is nice, but it's no Gate. Incantatrix is ridiculous, but it's still not arbitrarily high-powered, which is what stuff like planar-binding efreets, Gate chains (especially via Candle of Invocation), etc are.
Of course core + splats has more broken and more overpowered. My point is just that Core is more broken than any single other book. Any two or three, even.Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-05-06 at 01:20 AM.
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2008-05-06, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Complete Champion.
But in general, I do agree. The power of splatbooks is not that they're instrinsically stronger than core, it's that they multiply the options available for players to cherrypick out of. Rare indeed is the book that is fundamentally more powerful than Core (ToB is the only other example I can think of, and that's if you ignore casters), but players are always going to choose the options that work the best for their character. Easy example - the Urban Ranger is basically equivalent in power to the normal Ranger, but anybody who chooses that variant will chose it because it makes their particular character better. If it was standard, and the classic Rangerwas the variant, the same would happen with it only showing up when it improves the particular character in question. So, by offering two equivalent ways of doing the same thing, you've increased the power available to players because they can choose the version that synergizes best with their concept. Not that options are a bad thing; the alternative is everyone playing a Commoner with the same stats, same feats, and same gear. And nobody wants that.
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2008-05-06, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
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2008-05-06, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
I sees a tangent, I runs with it. :)
I quit playing GW games when I purchased a pile of their miniatures which were being offered for sale at their eponymously named store. Hey, they never had a sale before, I dropped a bundle. I even remarked on the unprecedented sale to the two clerks in the store. "You guys never run sales, what's up?" "Oh, nothing really." I then spent hours painting my new miniatures. And then I showed up to play in one of their evening games hosted in their stores. And was told that they had released a new miniature line and that no one could play with the "old" miniatures in their store. Regardless of the fact that they had been purchased there.
They got me, but that was the last cent I've ever spent on a GW product and the last time I set foot in one of their stores. I even like their paints but found a different manufacturer to avoid spending another dime on GW products. And I tell this story to all of my gaming friends, to attempt to dissuade them from taking the GW hook.--
Cheers,
Kompera
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2008-05-06, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Except not. It can't compete with the Infinite Titan Gate Chain, or just with infinite Wishes.
But in general, I do agree. The power of splatbooks is not that they're instrinsically stronger than core, it's that they multiply the options available for players to cherrypick out of. Rare indeed is the book that is fundamentally more powerful than Core (ToB is the only other example I can think of, and that's if you ignore casters)
, but players are always going to choose the options that work the best for their character. Easy example - the Urban Ranger is basically equivalent in power to the normal Ranger, but anybody who chooses that variant will chose it because it makes their particular character better. If it was standard, and the classic Rangerwas the variant, the same would happen with it only showing up when it improves the particular character in question. So, by offering two equivalent ways of doing the same thing, you've increased the power available to players because they can choose the version that synergizes best with their concept. Not that options are a bad thing; the alternative is everyone playing a Commoner with the same stats, same feats, and same gear. And nobody wants that.
But, yes. Splatbooks tend to raise the average power--but that's for the best; a Core + CWarrior game is more balanced than a Core-Only game, for example.
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2008-05-06, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
Playing Rivers in Welcome to Thorns [Exalted 3E]
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2008-05-06, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Matthew quoting T. Foster: "...by Monte Cook's own admission, they included a bunch of intentionally "sub-optimal" options and advice in the 3.0 rulebooks as a way to encourage "rules mastery" among the player-base..."
The more likely explanation is that the designers of 3rd Ed. were pulling in two or three different conceptual directions and that their conflicting visions of the game system resulted in a downright kludgy mess. A simple case of "Too many cooks..."
Exacerbating this you had:
1) a probably less-than-rigorous playtest regime, which sounds (at least from anecdotal evidence) like the players were working under the assumption that 3rd Ed was going to play much more like 2nd Ed than it actually does.
2) the bloody mess that was the 3.0 to 3.5 update (druid vs. ranger 'balance', Skip's raging Sorcerer-phobia, and the balls up with the Diplomacy DCs table in the 3.5PHB, along the deliberate obfuscation of what CR actually means in the 3.5DMG, all spring to mind here)
3) rules sprawl combined with WOTC's downright lazy 'rush it out; reap the profit' playtesting and editing.
*Intentional* imbalance in Core D&D? Pull the other one!
Interesting insight though. Cheers
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2008-05-06, 05:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Reason for Imbalance in D20
Well, first I think the initial idea has some 'flaws'.
Creating an 'unbalanced' game so people can grow through experience and creativity sound as a nice base for the game, but they take it wrong. People that are exeperienced and creative should get better within the system by using superior tactics, not by useing superior 'cards' and knowing what cards are trapped .
Nevertheless this is more a personal feeling and I can see this work for a particular type of game, something like munchkin maybe.
But then they make one of the most horrifying mistakes I've seen for a while. It looks like they take the mindset of a collectors, PvP game and project this on a 'sharing', teambased game where balance is prefered.