General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yes for all three in the case of V:tM. Y'know who did it? White Wolf.

Fantastic! Where might I find such things?

[Caliphbubba]

Fantastic! Where might I find such things?

I think this might be the 25 year anniversary stuff that is coming out soon? (or is out? not quite sure)

[TheCountAlucard]

I think this might be the 25 year anniversary stuff that is coming out soon? (or is out? not quite sure)

Actually, the conversion guide's been out, published in November 2010. It's available on DriveThruRPG for ninety-nine cents.

[Caliphbubba]

Actually, the conversion guide's been out, published in November 2010. It's available on DriveThruRPG for ninety-nine cents.

oh sweet! thanks for the info.

[Morty]

Actually, the conversion guide's been out, published in November 2010. It's available on DriveThruRPG for ninety-nine cents.

Could you link it? I'm looking through the catalogue and I can't seem to find it...

[Mr.Bookworm]

Here it is.

Given how well it sold, I really, really hope they do some more of those. One for Mage, in particular, would be awesome.

[Morty]

Ah, so that's it. Thanks. I'm considering buying it, but the language barrier may be a problem - my Requiem book is in Polish and even if I could get my hands on a Polish Masquerade rulebook - which shouldn't be that hard - I doubt the translation guide is available in it. Oh, well. At worst I'll spend some time translating it for my players who're less proficient in English.

[CN the Logos]

The Fae on earth aren't gods. A powerful enough Motley can stand against the wrath of the Fae, and protect an entire Freehold from it, killing the aspects of the Keepers that are foolish enough to fight them.

The most powerful of the Changelings can even be expected to lead raids against Arcadia itself. Rescuing as many as possible from the clutches of the Keepers or stealing their treasures. Perhaps they can even upset the schemes of their captor, leading other Fae to take them apart.

You can't overturn the whole of Faerie, any more than the Mages can lead a quest through the Abyss to the Supernal world and expel the dark oracles. But you can do some good. You can beat a few villains. That's as much hope as there is in the World of Darkness.

...Well, I fully admit, it's a matter of taste on my part. Although if Changeling has as much hope as Mage, someone needs to tell that you the vast majority of its fans; the general impression I've gotten has been "doom, doom, doom, doomy doom doom." And if that's not the case, that's a problem with the (viral) marketing.

I still say the premises are leagues apart of terms of grimdarkness though. Mages gain their powers through a moment of enlightenment, and are on a quest to redeem the world from the powers of darkness. Their enemies are powerful, but don't really care; the Gnostic Archons Exarchs think they're so far above them that they really don't bother doing anything about the material world (their servants do, but they're comparatively squishy and deluded), and the inhabitants of Primordial Chaos the Abyss aren't really plotting. They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

Changelings, on the other hand, get their powers from an act I previously compared to rape because from a psychological standpoint it might as well be, they aren't as powerful or versatile as mages, and their enemies are still actively hunting them. There's also the matter of the tone set by the inspiration. Classical fairy tales (ones that actually involves fairies as well as ones that didn't and ones that didn't involve folkloric fairies but had things that might be Fae-esque by Changeling's standards ) often ended horribly, sometimes even when the ending was supposed to be happy. Gnosticism, in contrast, has the enlightened humans ultimately overthrowing the evil gods that rule this world, or simply walking out of their ineffectual grasp as the gnostics ascend to a higher plane of existence.

There's also a disconnect for me in terms of what the fae are supposed to be in NWoD, exactly. They don't seem to work as they should for any of the classic explanations for their existence in folklore, and while I don't require slavish adherence to the original myths in my work, I do want to end up with a cosmos that fits together in a way that makes sense. If they feed on emotions and mortal action, what separates them from demons? If they're elementals, "airy" spirits, or djinn, why don't they use the spirit rules? If they're fallen angels, why can't they perceive the divine fire? If they were formed from the collective subconscious, isn't there another plane of existence for beings like that?

I guess the explanation could just be "they're here, they don't make sense, get used to it," but that answer doesn't satisfy me at all. There are plenty of weird things in nature, but things generally fit together in a way that makes some sense, or gives the appearance of it. Beyond that, though, I expect my settings to make metaphysical sense because I have to portray them as Storyteller and react to them as player, and I can't do that as well if things seem too arbitrary.

TL;DR: Changeling's premise and cosmology are interesting, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing it, and I don't know how to work it into the game I'm already playing.

...Now, on an unrelated note. Has anyone got an idea of what a dragon should look like in NWoD? It doesn't have to literally be a gigantic lizard, the dragon in question is inspired by the classic mythological motif of dragons symbolizing primordial chaos, but I'd like something to start with, stats-wise. I'm not sure how speed and strength should scale up with size.

In fact, if anyone has a chart or even an idea of how speed and physical attributes should scale with size, that would be awesome. Thanks.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think there are canon occurances of qashmallim that resemble dragons.

[Mr.Bookworm]

There's Dzarumazh, from Grim Fears, a Changeling book. He's an earth-bound True Fae whose real form is a dragon.

Tone him down by quite a bit (he's the single most powerful thing ever given stats in the nWoD) and he'd make a good template for that.

[Pokonic]

Well, there are the fey examples as said already, and in Hunter there is a line someware that states that they have had to deal with large, firebreathing reptiles in the past.
I also know there are stats for them as reptile Hosts, pretty much reskinned Molk'e, somewhere on the net, but I dont know where they are.

EDIT: Went on the wiki and looked, and they are not in the homebrew section. For shame,they had a good writeup for them as well.

Also, I remember that one Kerberoi was mentioned resembling a asian dragon somewere. Anybody else knows what dominion that I am talking about?

[Blackfang108]

NOTHING in nWoD is as hopeful as Mage.

every other group has: "well, I can't change the world, but I can make my corner better" as the best they can hope for.

Even if I disavow Vampire as a gameline. (I HATE Vampires, of almost all incarnations, with all that is left of my heart and soul. Hail Father Wolf and Mother Luna.)

EDIT: and the Changelings DO make sense. They're Half Human, Half Fey.

What separaes them from demons? Crunch: they have a Virtue. Demons don't. There's more fluffwise, but it's late and I can't come up with a coherent point.
They aren't fallen angels, and I have NO idea where you got that one.
The Elemental Changelings aren't pure elementals, and the Fey aren't elementals at all.
And they're not part of a collective subconscious.

They just ARE. They're Forces of "Nature."

Also, rape is a great way to describe it, for our puny mortal minds. But it's not just the abhorrent physical act.

Changelings were raped physically(in the current sense for some, in the sense that rape and theft are synonymous for all), mentally and (most importantly) metaphysically.

"show me on thedoll where the True Fey touched you."
*points to the hand holding the doll."

EDIT 2: proofreading.

[Yuki Akuma]

Promethean is the single most hopeful game in the entire setting.

It's also the most horrifically depressing.

[CN the Logos]

EDIT: and the Changelings DO make sense. They're Half Human, Half Fey.

Never said the changelings didn't make sense. The fae have to be using those stolen children for something, and "reproduction" is as good an answer as any. It's the True Fae that don't seem to fit, from my perspective.

What separaes them from demons? Crunch: they have a Virtue. Demons don't. There's more fluffwise, but it's late and I can't come up with a coherent point.

If the only metaphysical difference is that one is evil, why separate them into distinct classes of being at all?

They aren't fallen angels, and I have NO idea where you got that one.

Perhaps in that link I posted above, which gave a bunch of mythical explanations for fairies, none of which Changeling uses? I understand what I've read of Changling's fluff; I'm just having a difficult time reconciling it with the rest of the NWoD and actual folklore.

The Elemental Changelings aren't pure elementals, and the Fey aren't elementals at all.

Traditionally, elementals are a class of spirit between humanity and the angels. They're divided into gnomes, sylphs, undines (or nymphs), and salamanders. They are fae-esque, if not fairies outright.

And they're not part of a collective subconscious.

I seem to remember reading something about them needing recognition and conflict to survive, but I admit my experience with Changeling amounts to reading the fluff online, looking at more fluff on the White Wolf wiki, reading a good chunk of the book in the bookstore, and looking at some interesting threads on White Wolf's forum, so I'm not sure how it works exactly.

They just ARE. They're Forces of "Nature."

If they were forces of nature, they'd be covered under the spirit rules. And having the antagonistic gods "just be" sort of worked for Lovecraft, but he was writing thinly-disguised philosophical tracts, and wasn't (intentionally) creating a roleplaying game in which someone else would have to create stories based on his that would make sense in a tabletop setting. Moreover, for all his talk about the terrible truth, Lovecraft's universe (or what he clarified of it) makes sense. It's bleak and uncaring, and the gods that aren't oblivious to your existence want to break you, but it all sort of fits together. Whereas the True Fae are just sort of their own thing, with a separate power source, mana equivalent, and realm from the other things that are sort of like them and occupy the same niche in mythology.

I admit, it's pretty subjective, and someone else might rather eliminate the qashmal, demons, etc... from their version of the WoD. I'm just not enthused about Changeling based on what I've read of it. Everyone here who enjoys Call of Oberon should feel free to keep on enjoying it.

[Morty]

As far as the scale of depressiveness and hopefulness goes, I'd say Hunter is somewhat hopeful... if you look at the big picture.
On the personal scale, it's extremely bleak, as hunters fight an uphill battle and tend to have short careers before they end up dead, locked in an asylum, enslaved, on the street and such. But on the big scale, it's all about normal humans who stand up and tell the supernatural where to stick it. Small comfort for a hunter who gets beaten to death with his own arm by a werewolf, but still.
And personally, I enjoy Changeling. Not everything has to be categorized and labeled.

[CN the Logos]

Promethean is the single most hopeful game in the entire setting.

It's also the most horrifically depressing.

It's my favorite line along with Geist, but yeah, it's heartwrenching. Some of the setting stories are outright tearjerkers (the one where a former Promethean realizes he's reached the New Dawn when someone gives him a ride because they felt bad for him having to walk in a downpour at night, John Ash's musings, Zo Malek's entire story arc... )

So far in my Promethean chronicle, which has covered the first twenty-two days of the player character's life, she has been:

- Attacked by a Pandoran left behind by her creator.

- Shot by a gang of slavers.

- Shot by one of the guys she helped defend from the slavers when he caught her healing via car battery.

- Forced to flee into the desert alone, in the middle of a sandstorm, with only a map and compass, the food she could carry, and the pack animal that hated her the least.

- Caught in the middle of a fight between an escaped convict and the Frankenstein bounty hunter (first fellow Promethean she's seen!) pursuing him, both of which were heavily armed. On the plus side, she may have made a new friend. On the ever-present negative side, he is very much Stannum, with a Humanity around fivish.

And we haven't even made it to the end of the first month yet! Next session, more slavers!

[Urpriest]

Haven't read Changeling, have read Mage: aren't the Fae just supposed to be the residents of Arcadia, in the same sense that each of the other watchtower realms has its respective denizens? For that matter, are Sin-Eaters/Geists connected to Stygia, or Werewolves to the Primal Wild?

[The Glyphstone]

Haven't read Changeling, have read Mage: aren't the Fae just supposed to be the residents of Arcadia, in the same sense that each of the other watchtower realms has its respective denizens? For that matter, are Sin-Eaters/Geists connected to Stygia, or Werewolves to the Primal Wild?

WW leaves it up to individual ST's if Mage's Arcadia is the same as Changeling's Arcadia, without ever stating it officially yes or no in canon.

[CN the Logos]

Haven't read Changeling, have read Mage: aren't the Fae just supposed to be the residents of Arcadia, in the same sense that each of the other watchtower realms has its respective denizens? For that matter, are Sin-Eaters/Geists connected to Stygia, or Werewolves to the Primal Wild?

IIRC, Stygia is stated to be separate from the Underworld in one part of Mage, but then the book adds that you can switch that up if you wish to make that watchtower reachable via a perilous quest through the Underworld. I don't have the page numbers though.

[Blackfang108]

If they were forces of nature, they'd be covered under the spirit rules. And having the antagonistic gods "just be" sort of worked for Lovecraft, but he was writing thinly-disguised philosophical tracts, and wasn't (intentionally) creating a roleplaying game in which someone else would have to create stories based on his that would make sense in a tabletop setting. Moreover, for all his talk about the terrible truth, Lovecraft's universe (or what he clarified of it) makes sense. It's bleak and uncaring, and the gods that aren't oblivious to your existence want to break you, but it all sort of fits together. Whereas the True Fae are just sort of their own thing, with a separate power source, mana equivalent, and realm from the other things that are sort of like them and occupy the same niche in mythology.

I didn't say they were Spirits, I said they are Forces of Nature. If I meant that they were spirits, I would have asid that.

Why would a Force of Nature be forced to be a spirit? Not all of them are spirits in the first place.

[Urpriest]

Actually, CN, if your problem is with True Fae origins, aren't they semi-canonically just Changelings with Wyrd>=10? So True Fae come from Changelings, which in turn are created by True Fae. If you want an ultimate origin, Turtles All The Way Down seems appropriate.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, CN, if your problem is with True Fae origins, aren't they semi-canonically just Changelings with Wyrd>=10? So True Fae come from Changelings, which in turn are created by True Fae. If you want an ultimate origin, Turtles All The Way Down seems appropriate.

Considering time doesn't flow at all the same way in Arcadia as it does in the fallen world, that makes perfect sense.

[Selrahc]

Changeling definitely has depressing elements. I'd just say that it isn't as depressingly hopeless as was being said. Since one of the main themes is hiding from cruel immortal taskmasters though... it can be fairly depressing.


Re: Arcadia
Arcadia is truly another world. The Fae are aliens. That is the theory presented in Hunter, and maybe it's true in a certain sense.

It's not part of the standard cosmology, because it isn't connected to it. Except via the contracts... The beings empowering the contracts are a "normal" part of the cosmology.

The Fae are the source of Wyrd, and Wyrd is what allows the contracts to be created. What are the beings that empower them? Whatever is convenient. I'd assume that they were Dreamtime creatures, since that is the area that the Fae have most influence over.

[CN the Logos]

This is why I shouldn't post my fluff grievances after trying to pull an all-nighter.

Actually, CN, if your problem is with True Fae origins, aren't they semi-canonically just Changelings with Wyrd>=10? So True Fae come from Changelings, which in turn are created by True Fae. If you want an ultimate origin, Turtles All The Way Down seems appropriate.

This is probably what I'll go with if any of my players ever express interest in playing it, or if I ever need a changeling NPC.

Changeling definitely has depressing elements. I'd just say that it isn't as depressingly hopeless as was being said. Since one of the main themes is hiding from cruel immortal taskmasters though... it can be fairly depressing.

Hey, nothing wrong with playing Call of Oberon. In fact just calling it that is making me slightly more favorably disposed towards it.

Re: Arcadia
Arcadia is truly another world. The Fae are aliens. That is the theory presented in Hunter, and maybe it's true in a certain sense.

It's not part of the standard cosmology, because it isn't connected to it. Except via the contracts... The beings empowering the contracts are a "normal" part of the cosmology.

The Fae are the source of Wyrd, and Wyrd is what allows the contracts to be created. What are the beings that empower them? Whatever is convenient. I'd assume that they were Dreamtime creatures, since that is the area that the Fae have most influence over.

The idea that the Fae aren't dreams, but are connected to our world via dreams and presumably shaped by them works, I think. It reminds me of Lovecraft's Dream-Cycle, but that's not a bad thing at all.

Leaving the whole fae issue behind for the moment; would anyone be interested in reading my Promethean campaign log if I were to start posting it here (in another thread, of course)? I've been keeping it to help me keep track of things more easily, and I could always use ideas and suggestions to improve my GMing.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Getting into the whole Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism debate for a second, out of official gamelines, Geist seems to be the most upbeat, if not the most hopeful. I feel that award has to go to Hunter, for the aforementioned "This is why we have the masquerade; because the humans are a real problem if you get enough of them together" reasons. The most depressing award out is probably for Changeling, on grounds of the game's premise being "metaphysical rape in all possible senses, with looming threat of being forcibly returned to something even worse." But that may just be me, and bear in mind that most of my knowledge of the games comes from TV Tropes. Except Geist and Changeling. Those I've read well enough.

Leaving the whole fae issue behind for the moment; would anyone be interested in reading my Promethean campaign log if I were to start posting it here (in another thread, of course)? I've been keeping it to help me keep track of things more easily, and I could always use ideas and suggestions to improve my GMing.

I would be. I find Promethean interesting, though I haven't actually read any of it, just a bit of the TV Tropes page.

They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

Also, I'm stealing this for my sig. I cannot read it without giggling.

[TheCountAlucard]

Leaving the whole fae issue behind for the moment; would anyone be interested in reading my Promethean campaign log if I were to start posting it here (in another thread, of course)? I've been keeping it to help me keep track of things more easily, and I could always use ideas and suggestions to improve my GMing.

Sure thing.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh yes, please.

[Yuki Akuma]

SO hey, now that there's a WoD discussion thread, does that mean that there'll be a ton of WoD games now?

>.>

I wanna play Promethean. ;.;

[TheCountAlucard]

SO hey, now that there's a WoD discussion thread, does that mean that there'll be a ton of WoD games now?

I can only hope so.

I wanna play Promethean. ;.;

Someone should totally start such a game...

Someone...

[Pokonic]

Originally Posted by CN the Logos
Leaving the whole fae issue behind for the moment; would anyone be interested in reading my Promethean campaign log if I were to start posting it here (in another thread, of course)? I've been keeping it to help me keep track of things more easily, and I could always use ideas and suggestions to improve my GMing.

Yes, please!