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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    That's simply not true. Men who want to have sex in media are portrayed as liars, cheats, and lustful animals who only think with their penises. From Bulldog, to Barney Stinson, to Charlie Harper. And they are frequently punished for their behavior. The message is clear "Men who want sex are bad"

    While on the other hadn women who want to have sex are portrayed as strong and independent (Roz Doyle, Robin Sherbanski)

  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    That's simply not true. Men who want to have sex in media are portrayed as liars, cheats, and lustful animals who only think with their penises. From Bulldog, to Barney Stinson, to Charlie Harper. And they are frequently punished for their behavior. The message is clear "Men who want sex are bad"

    While on the other hadn women who want to have sex are portrayed as strong and independent (Roz Doyle, Robin Sherbanski)
    Wow, you're good at cherry picking... Ignoring things like Barney being probably the fan favorite of the show not despite him "wanting sex" but despite him lying to and manipulating women.
    It very much depends on the show you're watching what their stance on (male or female) sexuality is. If you feel one or the other is solely portrayed negatively, maybe you need to broaden your palate. I'm sure you'll be able to find something you like.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Watch any 1980's or 1990's horror film, for example - any girl who is sexually promiscuous is almost always portrayed as slutty in a way that apparently justifies whatever grisly murder the antagonist chooses to inflict upon her.
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  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Watch any 1980's or 1990's horror film, for example - any girl who is sexually promiscuous is almost always portrayed as slutty in a way that apparently justifies whatever grisly murder the antagonist chooses to inflict upon her.
    Doesnt the guy also get horribly murdered in those same movies?
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  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    ... it's actually not as common as you think.

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    All these green states allow shirtlessness (within certain contexts of course) regardless of sex.

    I'm not sure who would want to be shirtless in Alaska, but I suppose it's the principle of the thing.
    As always, use caution when trusting an online map. I live in Texas, and Austin is really the only area you'd want to even consider it, as the article here explains. I actually saw someone arrested last year in Galveston for this. Just because there's no official state law doesn't mean you can't get in trouble for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    More broadly, when it comes to sexual harassment in the workplace, the appearance of sexual intent (or any other impropriety) is sufficient. Even if there is consent of both parties, a half-decent HR person will put an immediate end to it. Uber notwithstanding.

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    Also important to remember that it wouldn't have to be Elliott who complained. Technically another employee who was there who felt the conduct caused concerns could file. Benefits of being a supervisor for the State. You get hours of this stuff every year. Classic example: Elliott tells explicit crude jokes to Renee. Even if Renee isn't offended, anyone overhearing who is can file (and would probably win if they could prove it, assuming a fair playing field).

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Doesnt the guy also get horribly murdered in those same movies?
    Very true. It was usually only "The Virgin" who lived.

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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Doesnt the guy also get horribly murdered in those same movies?
    Yes, but unrelated to his sexuality.

    The sole survivor can be reliably predicted to be the lone virginal young woman in the film.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Watch any 1980's or 1990's horror film, for example - any girl who is sexually promiscuous is almost always portrayed as slutty in a way that apparently justifies whatever grisly murder the antagonist chooses to inflict upon her.
    Given that in most horror films, a significant majority of the cast dies or is otherwise brutalized and abused, I'm not sure that's saying much. Sex is a convenient way to get people off alone and defenseless, so of course the people who engage in it with a freaking killer around are going to be on that list. That's more of a case of "too stupid to live" rather than "sex is bad mmk?" And even in other cases, its really, really hard to justify sex improving anybody's chances for survival without it being straight up magic or something.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2017-03-18 at 10:04 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that you are wrong, but the movies I remember had a very specific formula - the "good" person survives and the "bad" ones all die horribly.

    By "good", SaintRidley provided the perfect example; demure, compassionate, virginal, and so on. The "bad" people, on the other hand, have exactly one character trait and it's all that is needed to doom them; the guy is a boorish jock or a nasally-whining nerd, whereas the pretty girl is (more often than not) sexually active. It's a deliberate part of the audience manipulation; you're supposed to want the "good" person to survive because they're "good", so you're shown what happens to people who aren't "good" and told "this is the only thing keeping them safe".

    They're killed for being "bad" people, and she's "bad" because she likes to have sex. I honestly don't think I'm understating the shallowness of the internal logic of the movies, as tragically unevolved as we might find them today.... although maybe I just watched a lot of really bad (and not necessarrily "bad") films growing up...
    Last edited by Wraith; 2017-03-18 at 10:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    To the best of my knowledge, this trope of "the people boinking each other shall die first/soon" in horror movies was started by one of the classic horror movies, because the murderer-from-beyond-the-grave "died" because their teenage camp counselors were having sex instead of doing their jobs and keeping kids safe...so when the murderer came back, he went after the teens who were busy boinking. From there...well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The easy-to-draw lines between "sex=bad" and "chastity=good" and how a couple sneaking off to have sex is a good way to get them isolated for the kill, but that last part is a weird comparison to draw when a far easier target would be the loser girl who didn't go to whatever party the sex is happening at. The number of slasher villains who spend the first half of the film picking off lone targets to get away with murder, only to spend the last half of the movie going out in a blaze of glory by attacking people surrounded by other people, rather than continuing to pick off lone targets and continue getting away with murder, is staggering and confusing unless you accept that it's for the sake of the plot.

  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Or if you were to accept that serial killers are not the brightest or most sensible of folk out there, perhaps?
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Or if you were to accept that serial killers are not the brightest or most sensible of folk out there, perhaps?
    Serial killers often (in fiction) have a pattern. Breaking pattern is odd from that perspective as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Or if you were to accept that serial killers are not the brightest or most sensible of folk out there, perhaps?
    Killers aren't necessarily bright or sensible, and make dumb decisions, and that's why they get caught before becoming serial killers. Serial killers are usually either the guys good enough to get away with it over and over, or the dudes that managed to messily kill a bunch of people before easily getting caught. Serial killers in movies moving from one to the next seems to happen less because it's the logical extension of that serial killer's degrading mental state, and more "it's time to resolve the plot, let's have them get stupid all of a sudden". In some movies it makes sense - the killer is good at getting away, but not creative, or they have a rather alien thought process, so while they're nigh uncatchable in the first half, the heroes figure the killer's thought process out in time to have a real fight scene in the second half, but a number of directors/writers get lazy about it and just follow the standard tropes without having a real reason for them to happen that way.

  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Killers aren't necessarily bright or sensible, and make dumb decisions, and that's why they get caught before becoming serial killers. Serial killers are usually either the guys good enough to get away with it over and over, or the dudes that managed to messily kill a bunch of people before easily getting caught.
    Either that or the people who preferentially target people the police don't care about in the first place, who then have their fairly obvious crimes just ignored for a while.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    I was less refering to classic horror movie tropes and more to examples of stories where women's gender become their defining characteric in a relatively male-dominated cast. A.k.a. the Smurfette principle. (Hello Black widow)

    Another example is that where less-than-average looking man can exist and be common in TV/movieland, ugly women are usually a rather unique exception in their environment. Physical standards of media toward women are much higher; this tells a lot of the preconcieved notion that a woman without any looks isnt worth to be put on screen.

    Add the rather common fact that women characters in fiction usually have to be paired of/married off eventually, whereas still single guys are common. After all, what could possibly happen of Eowyn if she didnt picked up a husband?!

    Not to forget that the majority (by a large margin) of cheesecake in fiction are women, reduced to the level of sexual object to be lusted after. Even if a.woman isnt thete solely to be lusted, their pose/costumes are designed to emphasize their feminite feature (again, hello Black widow). Just compare male superheroes vs women, and how sexualized they are in their depiction.

  15. - Top - End - #915
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    After all, what could possibly happen of Eowyn if she didnt picked up a husband?!
    Probably? She would charge into battle, seeking glory, and die before she turned 30. That's sort of her whole character arc.

    Anyway, I see your point, but I think its more a symptom of the Smurffete thing than a deliberate decision. When you only have one woman to show their side of a relationship, it starts to look odd when you have 20 failed relationships for one character, and a successful relationship typically ends in marriage. In contrast, you have more single men because you have more men, period.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2017-03-19 at 05:42 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Probably? She would charge into battle, seeking glory, and die before she turned 30. That's sort of her whole character arc.

    Anyway, I see your point, but I think its more a symptom of the Smurffete thing than a deliberate decision. When you only have one woman to show their side of a relationship, it starts to look odd when you have 20 failed relationships for one character, and a successful relationship typically ends in marriage. In contrast, you have more single men because you have more men, period.
    Disagreed on Eowyn's fate. But beside that, thats a fair point. All of them, really. But i also would like to emphasize one important thing you spelled out: its never deliberate. I do not believe there is a pariarchal conspiracy to keep women down/objectified/etc.

    I think it happend naturally because these attitudes have been normalized. Because its just the norm for men to treat most women they get to see in media (ALL media) as some object to lust after, because they have been put there to be lusted after in the first place. Because we are used to it, it works in sales, marketting, etc.

    Its inscidious, really. Its not something to start bending yourself in super-self shame like certain political movements like to strawman gender studies. its simply a matter of acknowledging and seeing the world for what it is: women have it waaaaaaaaay harder than men because of the inherent bias society created by normalizing sexist attitude and treating it as "normal".

    Hell, i just saw an.interesting article talking about it 5 minutes ago.

  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, this trope of "the people boinking each other shall die first/soon" in horror movies was started by one of the classic horror movies, because the murderer-from-beyond-the-grave "died" because their teenage camp counselors were having sex instead of doing their jobs and keeping kids safe...so when the murderer came back, he went after the teens who were busy boinking. From there...well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The easy-to-draw lines between "sex=bad" and "chastity=good" and how a couple sneaking off to have sex is a good way to get them isolated for the kill, but that last part is a weird comparison to draw when a far easier target would be the loser girl who didn't go to whatever party the sex is happening at. The number of slasher villains who spend the first half of the film picking off lone targets to get away with murder, only to spend the last half of the movie going out in a blaze of glory by attacking people surrounded by other people, rather than continuing to pick off lone targets and continue getting away with murder, is staggering and confusing unless you accept that it's for the sake of the plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Or if you were to accept that serial killers are not the brightest or most sensible of folk out there, perhaps?
    Of course, a fair number of the killers in the more popular franchises aren't actually serial killers. Serial killers are ritualistic, where the act and the pleasure of the act is the goal.

    Jason Voorhees - Basically a repeating spree killer. He'll kill anyone coming into his territory.

    Michael Meyers - Arguably the same. He just wants to kill his family. Of course, he'll take out anyone in the way (and he has a broad definition of in the way). What we don't know for sure is what he would do if he KNEW his whole family was gone.

    Freddy Kruger - Arguably became a serial killer once he died. Of course, it's also a survival trait for him since he also doesn't really exist if he isn't remembered.

    Pinhead - Demonic entity punishing those stupid enough to mess with the box.

    Leatherface and family - Cannibals. The killing is incidental to the eating. There's nothing inherently ritualistic about it.

    Chucky - Arguably a serial killer. Charles Lee Ray certainly was. The doll has been in some movies and hasn't in others.

    Others? (And how the heck did we get on this in the QC thread anyway.... )
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  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Among other things, Her smugness really gets under my skin to start. Add on the harassment and misanthropy on top of it, a dash of hypocrisy, and coat with the implication from the creator that we're supposed to find this behavior charming, you have a recipe for a loathsome character stew.
    I don't think that's implied at all. I thought that we were supposed to find her behavior pretty loathsome.

    OTOH, Faye's behavior (especially before The Reveal) was often pretty loathsome, if you get right down to it, but most of us (that is, the readers) did find it, well, maybe not charming, but at least funny. Which maybe says more about us than it does about any of the characters or the author--though mostly I think it's because Faye is at least witty, which Renee really isn't (or hasn't really been shown to be).

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Others? (And how the heck did we get on this in the QC thread anyway.... )
    I think i am to blame. I made a quick post asking people to post something substantial than mere whining, and suddenly​ we are having meaningful discussion about gender studies in media & movie serial killers.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Well, can't say Renee isn't honest. Or that Eliot isn't clueless. Or pretends to be...

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    Well, can't say Renee isn't honest. Or that Eliot isn't clueless. Or pretends to be...
    I kind of find Elliot cute. In a "small naive child" way. The guy is so huge and strong, he never had to grow up his vicious side to defend himself.

  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    In the first two panels she looks like she's about to punch him for having to say that...

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I kind of find Elliot cute. In a "small naive child" way. The guy is so huge and strong, he never had to grow up his vicious side to defend himself.
    He's like a huge puppy. Kinda clueless and rather all loving.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Renee gets points for apologizing and seeming lile she actually means it...and also for calling a spade a spade.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Renee gets points for apologizing and seeming lile she actually means it...and also for calling a spade a spade.
    Yup. She has an uphill battle to be sympathetic, but at least she started the climb.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    New Comic: more Butts Disease. (And more inappropriate workplace behavior)

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    But seriously, everyone should know the wonders of squats.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    I don't think there's a "nice" way for me to say this, so I'm just going to come out with it and be done.

    Considering Renee's physique compared to everyone else? She is in absolutely no position to be telling other people how much exercise they ought to be doing. The best you can say is that she is being rude, at worst one might even see her as negging - "you'd be pretty if only you'd work out" sort of thing.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Renee gets points for apologizing and seeming lile she actually means it...and also for calling a spade a spade.
    Apologizing and seeming like she actually means it, for all of one strip before she goes back to sexually harassing Elliot.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 10: La Li Lu Le Lo

    Shouldn't your Officially Platonic Friend be the one that can talk to you about your butt status?
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