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Thread: Why was dex made so powerful?
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2017-08-10, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Why was dex made so powerful?
I get the feeling that there is a deep narrative reason for that, since quick and agile, and 'ducking just in the nick of time" is both a cinematic and comic book based way to add drama or tension (resolved) to an action scene. Also, martial arts.
yeah.
Your 10 Str fighter can wear his studded leather, carry a longbow, a quiver with 20 arrows, a rapier and a shield, a backpack with enough food and water for 1 day in the wilderness, and a handful of coins before he's encumbered. (with the optional encumbrance rules) Hand him a few days' worth of food and water, a couple days worth of torches, some magical items, a few hundred coins, a smattering of gems, and suddenly he's encumbered even with the default encumbrance.
I always tried to make sure I had decent dex for all characters in those days, when we didn't just roll straight numbers, since it was useful for both tossing things and dodging things. And reaction, if you got a really good roll.
Here's a note from Greyhawk, OD&D, Supp 1, that was nearly a default OD&D source: the only class that got an armor class boost for higher dex as the Fighting Man. (IIRC< page 14).
Giving everyone dex improved AC was OK, IIRC it was present in both AD&D and Basic/Expert/, so the choice to make dex more valuable came very early in the game.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-08-10 at 09:32 AM.
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2017-08-10, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
about 2/3rds of dex saves also allow strength, and there are some non-dex strength saves.
strength characters have access to Javalins as a ranged weapon, so Dex chars and Str Chars dont really have that as a weakness. STR gets alot more damage from GWM than dex from SS, and the GWF style is more damage than the Archer combat style.
by default, the MM has alot more mundane combat damage than magical, so that +1 AC cap matters.
initiative in 5E is significantly less Omnipotent than in the first 7 editions of DnD, where going first meant the difference between a TPK and a FFlawless Victory at the highest possible power playlevel.
Bows are exclusively dex weapons because the draw strength of a bow doesnt really matter once it passes ~100 lbs. it matters that you can put the arrows where they will deal the most damage, because you cant hit the point where shock alone becomes a major risk factor against survivalMy Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2017-08-10, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Seven... I'm having a hard time grouping the pre-5e game into 7 categories. If you do 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e, then you are splitting Original/basic/classic into 3 categories which... there would be at least 4, more if RC and the later sets aren't part of BECMI. If you would be so kind, could you split these out into your 7 versions (or make your own schema)?
0e D&D
0e D&D + GH supplement
holmes D&D
b/x D&D
becmi D&D
RC D&D
The Dungeons & Dragons Game (Denning Boxed set, 1991)
The Classic Dungeons & Dragons Game (1994)
1e AD&D
2e AD&D
2e + PO books
3e
3.5
4e
4essentials
Bows are exclusively dex weapons because the draw strength of a bow doesnt really matter once it passes ~100 lbs. it matters that you can put the arrows where they will deal the most damage, because you cant hit the point where shock alone becomes a major risk factor against survivalLast edited by Willie the Duck; 2017-08-10 at 10:36 AM.
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2017-08-10, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
As with most things, its a trade-off.
STR characters can get max AC without having more than 16 STR, and can dump DEX entirely.
DEX characters needs to max DEX to get max AC.
STR saves are uncommon, but tend to be pretty important. (restrained condition, usually)
DEX saves are common, but tend to be be pretty unimportant. (aoe damage resistance)
STR characters can push, grapple, and use other handy combat maneuvers.
DEX characters have a 30% chance to beat STR characters in initiative
STR characters can build for Heavy Weapons and pole arms, which have awesome feat support and open up lots of melee opportunities.
DEX characters can use ranged weapons without missing a beat. (ranged weapons also have awesome feat support)
Basically, as I see it, STR characters are generally better in melee, with more options and relevant abilities. DEX characters have the advantage of not being entirely married to melee. Encumbrance rules sort of make strength more important, but not really, since you can just get a mule or a friendly barbarian to carry your things.
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2017-08-10, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
A bad design decision is what it was. They made Dex the uber stat and now Strength is close to worthless. It's pretty easy to dump Strength altogether and not have any issues at all.
Same with mental stats: plenty of uses for Wisdom and Charisma and practically no use for Intelligence unless you're playing a Wizard. 5E is full of Wisdom and Charisma casters but only one class that has a use for Int? Bad decision.
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2017-08-10, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Strength isn't less useful on every build, just most of them. Dexterity is the more important stat only if you don't need strength.
Saying dexterity is better than strength is like saying wisdom is better than intelligence. The latter is true until you play a wizard. The former is true until you play a PM fighter.Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-08-10 at 02:31 PM.
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2017-08-10, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Alternatively, the former is true until you get caught in an entangle spell. The latter is true until you face intellect devourers.
It's easy to see what abilities have more derived features based on them, but a crippling flaw on any ability is a crippling flaw. The fact that you never use any class ability or skill based on an certain ability isn't saving you when your brain is being eaten. And every single stat has things like that to worry about.
Also, personally, I find the notion that Dex is a better save than Str to be misguided. It is more common, sure... if you are only facing PC style spellcasters. The notion that it is a common save is highly rooted in analysis of spells, but I feel like Str saves from monsters are what I actually see more often.Last edited by jas61292; 2017-08-10 at 02:52 PM.
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2017-08-10, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
It's also weird that no one has to jump across, push or climb anything in 5e. Damn lazy kids these days, adventuring without ever having to do anything physical somehow.
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2017-08-10, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2017-08-10, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Strength weapons do more damage.
Athletics can be used to knock targets prone to give everyone advantage on attacks against them.
Strength saves help you from being grappled/restrained by the multitude of enemies with those effects built into their attacks that bypass the normal athletics/acrobatics rules for grappling.
Athletics lets you climb things while the dex guy with low or even negative strength is going to suffer.
Strength is just as useful in different situations. People just see initiative and AC bonus when wearing light or no armor and flip out about it.
Perception is the best, most used skill in game but I never see people argue for maxing wisdom with ASI unless cleric/druid.
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2017-08-10, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Same example with 20 dex instead of 18 (+5init AC:12+5+2+1 defense = 20)
66% chance to win init takes 19,8 damage per round
--> 19,8 + 19,8 + ((100-66%)*19,8)=46,332[*]8 dex fullplate fighter (-1 init: AC: 18+2 shield +1 defense = 21).
34% chance to win init; takes 17.6 damage per round
--> 17.6 + 17.6 + ( (100-34%)*17.6) = 46.816 damage
So ... err ... edge the guy with 6 more initiative.
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2017-08-10, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-11, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
yes, a 6 point init difference overcompensates a 1 point of AC difference with less then half a damage per combat.
Praise the Dexterity
Hey, considering 15 stat +2 racial +2 from one ASI is only 19 ... you mind if the strength fighter takes heavy armor mastery, boosting his strength to 20 (like your 20 dex), but also getting 3 damage reduction (putting him at 40.432 damage, or 5.9 damage per combat over the dex fighter? )Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
Alucard (TFS): I do things. I take very enthusiastic walks through the woods
Math Rule of thumb: 1/X chance : There's about a 2/3 of it happening at least once in X tries
Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb
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2017-08-11, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-11, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
But just to be clear i prefer a str fighter because it opens up the option of grappling or shoving an opponent. And i think it can be advantageous to act after the spellcasters in the party with stuff like fireball and buffs/debuffs.
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2017-08-11, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
Alucard (TFS): I do things. I take very enthusiastic walks through the woods
Math Rule of thumb: 1/X chance : There's about a 2/3 of it happening at least once in X tries
Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb
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2017-08-11, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
To nitpick further 12 every long rest and 4 extra that you get when you go beyond the amounts of hit dice you regain on every long rest. And if you consider critical hits the damage from an attack from a giant ape should deal 1,4 more damage per attack to both the dex and str fighter. Which should lower the 5,9/combat to 5,452/combat.
Last edited by Galactkaktus; 2017-08-11 at 09:30 AM.
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2017-08-11, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
the first 7 editions of DnD are:
ODND
BECMI/ADND
BDND (we dont talk about this one)
2nd Ed
2nd Revised
3rd ed
3rd Revised
4 + 4E are #8 + 9 of the 10 editions.
Draw strength matters. but it matters significantly less once you pass a certain point when compared to being able to put the projectiles on target.My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
Drow avatar @ myself
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2017-08-11, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
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2017-08-11, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
I will agree, this listing has no basis in history. No way are BECMI and 1e AD&D the same thing (especially not if 2e and 2e revised aren't the same edition).
RC not being distinct I at least get. It is often considered part of BECMI, as are the '91 and '94 boxed sets. Although whether the minor differences between those and the Mentzer originals (or even the difference between the 1st and second printing Mentzer originals for Basic and Expert) are bigger differences than the differences between Mentzer and Moldvay is a pretty subjective case.
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2017-08-11, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-11, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was dex made so powerful?
Prof + Str to hit and Str to damage for bows makes significantly more sense than Dex not mattering at all.
Yes, you need to be able to hit the target - but that's what your proficiency represents. Training is what gives you proper aim (of any stats to add to that, I guess Int or Wis would make the most sense), dexterity is very abstract to apply to that.
At the very least, I don't know why they didn't make bows something that could be used with Str or Dex like finesse weapons. It makes no sense that strength doesn't confer any benefit to using a bow.