Use magic device?

[BenTheJester]

Hmmm I just checked UMD for the first time, as I had never played a character with it as a class skill, and never gave attention to the details when one of my fellow players made a roll.

I was shocked to discover the DC to use wands is static. What the hell? This means that given enough money, you can cast 9th level spells, with fairly good odds of success?

Am I missing something?

[rezplz]

Wands only go up to 4th level spells.

[Boci]

Plus, even if 9th level wands did exist, don't you need to emulate the 19 metal state to cast 9th level spells as well?

[Milskidasith]

How would a skill check against using an item be anything but static? I mean, you could make checks harder and harder to make as you increased in level, but then it would be Truenamer Part II: Revenge of the Terrible Game Design.

Emulating a 19 in the ability score is a DC 34, which, while hard if you only have ranks in UMD, isn't hard with an item, or just having a 13+ in the mental stat and having a +6 item of it.

[Eldan]

He probably meant that it should increase with spell level of the spell to be used from the item.

[truemane]

Well, aside from the fact that Wands can only have spells of 4th level or lower, not really. UMD is horribly broken and has been the woe of many a DM for years and years. And not only that, but like all static DC's, once you pass the 'tipping point; you go from 'fairly good chances' to 'excellent chances' to 'can't fail.'

And the DC is only 20. So a decent Charisma score and a few ranks and really, you're seriously off to the races.

EDIT: Why would you have to emulate a 19 in the relevant attribute? You only have to have the spell on your spell list to use a wand, not actually be able to cast it.

[Boci]

EDIT: Why would you have to emulate a 19 in the relevant attribute? You only have to have the spell on your spell list to use a wand, not actually be able to cast it.

I wasn't sure. I remeber someone mentioned it in a fighter vs. wizard thread. That's why I asked.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Plus, even if 9th level wands did exist, don't you need to emulate the 19 metal state to cast 9th level spells as well?

I don't think so, Tim.

[Boci]

I don't think so,

Okay, my mistake, Must have remembered wrong.

Tim.

Huh?

[Jack_Simth]

Wands only go up to 4th level spells.

True, but staves go higher, and those use the same check.

[TheCountAlucard]

Huh?

He was feeling like referencing the words of Wilson Wilson Jr.

[The Glyphstone]

Then again, Staves + UMD is a whole nother ballgame of cheese...

[Crafty Cultist]

Huh?

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[UglyPanda]

Does it matter? Magic items themselves cost craptons as they go up in power. You won't reliably be able to use magic items until mid levels and you won't be able to afford enough good items until later. And at high levels, UMD is nothing compared to the classes who don't need items to cast their spells.

[AslanCross]

True, but staves go higher, and those use the same check.

Nope. Staves require both the appropriate ability score and having the spell on your spell list. It takes two UMD checks to activate a staff.

The ability score emulation is rather difficult to make (Check result - 15 = effective ability score ), but admittedly that's easy enough to remedy.

EDIT: My bad, it seems you only need to emulate having the spell. That said, it doesn't use the static Wand activation DC.

[Gralamin]

Nope. Staves require both the appropriate ability score and having the spell on your spell list. It takes two UMD checks to activate a staff.

The ability score emulation is rather difficult to make (Check result - 15 = effective ability score ), but admittedly that's easy enough to remedy.

EDIT: My bad, it seems you only need to emulate having the spell. That said, it doesn't use the static Wand activation DC.

Uhh, no they don't. Runestaffs require it to be on your list, but all staffs require is:

Activation
Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).

The Spell Trigger activation is the same as a wand, so activating a staff is the same as a wand, you can just also emulate a caster level higher then the staff, if you wished.

[Lycanthromancer]

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Sorry; I had to get that out of my system.

[PhoenixRivers]

Wands have weaknesses:

1) Can't use metamagic.

2) Uses minimum stat necessary. Thus, Level 1 wands have a save DC of 11.
Level 2? 13. Level 3? 14. Level 4? 16. That is horribly low. By the time one can afford a level 4 wand, a dedicated caster should be slinging a DC 16 with his level 0 spells.

Those two generally limit them to low level utility and such. Things where the low caster level and save DC don't matter.

As for DC 34 to emulate a 19 stat? Assuming level 10 rogue?

13 ranks + 4 Cha + 3 Feat (Skill Focus) +2 Feat (Magical Aptitude) +2 MW Item + 3 Circlet of Persuasion = +27

That's not too heavy in optimization (14 starting Cha, +4 item, 2 feats, and two other reasonably costed items), and can hit it 70% of the time. You need even less with a method of taking 10 on UMD (Drop 4 Cha and a feat, most likely, savings: 16k gold and a feat, or 4 points on your point buy and a feat).

[Kaiyanwang]

Wands have weaknesses:

2) Uses minimum stat necessary. Thus, Level 1 wands have a save DC of 11.
Level 2? 13. Level 3? 14. Level 4? 16. That is horribly low. By the time one can afford a level 4 wand, a dedicated caster should be slinging a DC 16 with his level 0 spells.

Well, sorry if it could be considered a semi-derailment, but in magic of Faerun there are gems that can be added to the wands to enhance their CL and DC.

Not more than 2 in both cases, and are linked to elements and schools, but a 5-10% more could be something.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, sorry if it could be considered a semi-derailment, but in magic of Faerun there are gems that can be added to the wands to enhance their CL and DC.

Not more than 2 in both cases, and are linked to elements and schools, but a 5-10% more could be something.

Yeah, it's further investment in an item that will never be decent as an offensive tool without an Artificer and a couple feats.

[Boci]

You could just use spells that do not allow a saving throw. Enervate, ray of dizziness..

[PhoenixRivers]

You could just use spells that do not allow a saving throw. Enervate, ray of dizziness..

Enervate, possibly, though both are expensive. Ray of Dizziness, duration would be a bit short, but it's a decent idea.

The general idea is to find ways to ignore saving throws, and find something not too level dependent. Something that will get you 3-5 rounds, and an effect that's good.

[ericgrau]

A 1 level dip into a caster class gives the same thing but with automatic success. IMO that's the best way to do gishes. By the time you can match that with a rogue 4th level spells aren't a big deal.

[PhoenixRivers]

Hm. Level 6 Rogue.

9 ranks UMD + 3 Charisma + 5 feats + 2 UMD skill tool = +19.

That's a wand on a 1. And the wizard doesn't even have level 4 spells yet.

You can have a +0 Cha with a circlet of persuasion. About the same investment at this level.

Generally, I prefer to make my gishes with a level of Psywar or 3.

[ericgrau]

What's a UMD skill tool? And don't say "a MW tool". What is it actually? I'm tired of people being a bit too liberal with masterwork tools. Level 6 WBL is 13,000 gp. A circlet of persuasion is 4500 gp. Cha 18 and 2 feats is an awfully big investment for something a wizard gets not at level 7, but at level 1. He can use level 4 wands at level 1. A dip seems easier than a UMD focus. UMD is better used on the side. And in that case it takes a rogue a bit longer.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What's a UMD skill tool? And don't say "a MW tool". What is it actually. I'm tired of people being a bit too liberal with masterwork tools.

Pointy hat.

[Lapak]

What's a UMD skill tool? And don't say "a MW tool". What is it actually? I'm tired of people being a bit too liberal with masterwork tools.

A mysterious yellow tome, inscribed with 'Advice on the Use of Magical Devices for those of Limited Intellectual Capacity.' An odd-looking figure with very large, very round eyes adorns the front cover. The book is filled with easy-to-use tips, important reminders, and checklists that can be briefly consulted when attempting to use a device.

(In other words, I agree with you. Any attempt to describe masterwork tools for a lot of skills seem silly. Sense Motive, for example; are you carrying around a portable polygraph or something?)

[Ravens_cry]

A mysterious yellow tome, inscribed with 'Advice on the Use of Magical Devices for those of Limited Intellectual Capacity.' An odd-looking figure with very large, very round eyes adorns the front cover. The book is filled with easy-to-use tips, important reminders, and checklists that can be briefly consulted when attempting to use a device.

(In other words, I agree with you. Any attempt to describe masterwork tools for a lot of skills seem silly. Sense Motive, for example; are you carrying around a portable polygraph or something?)

Maybe it's a gem that grows warm when someone is being untruthful, or maybe it's a pendulum that might waggle one way for truth and another way for lies. It's fluff, you decide.
Though I get the joke, a small handy booklet with hints and tips on the activation of magical devices actually makes sense for UMD. At least in the default Pathfinder setting, printing presses DO exist, even if only for woodcuts.

[PhoenixRivers]

What's a UMD skill tool? And don't say "a MW tool". What is it actually? I'm tired of people being a bit too liberal with masterwork tools. Level 6 WBL is 13,000 gp. A circlet of persuasion is 4500 gp. Cha 18 and 2 feats is an awfully big investment for something a wizard gets not at level 7, but at level 1. He can use level 4 wands at level 1. A dip seems easier than a UMD focus. UMD is better used on the side. And in that case it takes a rogue a bit longer.

Skill tools, however, are RAW. If you think it's liberal, you're misplacing a word. It's "literal". As in, you take the literal meaning of the words in the SRD, and there you go. As for "what it is"?? By RAW, it is a "Masterwork Skill Tool". That's the SRD entry, I believe. Whether it's a crystal that slightly distorts the ability of an item to detect, or a stone that exudes an aura that facilitates whatever, it's fluff. You can argue "nuh uh, your fluff doesn't make sense"...

Well, neither does arrows that fly straight, instead of a parabolic path. Neither does drowning to heal. I'm not arguing common sense, so shelve that debate right now. I'm arguing based on the crunch.

So, you say that a 4500gp investment at level 6 is enormous...

Then you say that a wizard, at level 1, can use a 21,000 gp item... about 12 levels before 21,000 gp is even close to the level 6 rogue's 4500gp investment.

Other things. Yes. A Level 1 wizard can use a level 4 wand. True.
A Level 1 wizard can use any level 4 wand. False.
Divine Power, for example. Show me the stock standard level 1 wizard doin' that one. Not gonna happen.

The Rogue? Level 4 wand, whether it's Sor/Wiz, or Cleric, or Druid, or Paladin, or Ranger, or even Bard.... Yup.

The one level dip gets you some wand usage. If you're really gonna wandcast your spells, a wizard dip is a horribly subpar way to do it. To reliably use spells in combat, you're either going without armor, or spending a metric buttload on the right armor (+1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt)...

Face it, Wizard is a freakin' great class... But it's horrible for a dip. If you're doing a wand focus, you get about 25% of the wands out there. If you're doing a scroll focus? Same. Even UMD works better than a wizard dip. Heck, even sorceror works better than a wizard dip, though it's not really better.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying that rogue is a good way to gish. I'm pointing out that a rogue can easily do it before level 4 wands even become cost effective. Even removing the +2 skill item, that's level 8, when level 4 spells are the best thing out there, and still nobody can afford the wand. It was a refutation to:

By the time you can match that with a rogue 4th level spells aren't a big deal.

As for the other part:

A 1 level dip into a caster class gives the same thing but with automatic success. IMO that's the best way to do gishes.

...?
Odd, I always thought Caster level 5 and Abjurant Champion was a good way to gish.

Or Duskblade.

Or Psywar.

Better than 1 level wizard ninja wand-wielder gish, at any rate.

[Lapak]

Maybe it's a gem that grows warm when someone is being untruthful, or maybe it's a pendulum that might waggle one way for truth and another way for lies. It's fluff, you decide.

Those both sound like minor magical items to me, not mundane skill tools.

Though I get the joke, a small handy booklet with hints and tips on the activation of magical devices actually makes sense for UMD. At least in the default Pathfinder setting, printing presses DO exist, even if only for woodcuts.

Which leads me to the problem with this, and the lie-detectors, and most other arbitrarily-fluffed MW tools for skills which are used in the field: they require no hands free and are used with no actions involved. A book of tips to UMD with? That would require at least one free hand and probably a round or so of actions to find said tips. The pendulum would need to be in hand and able to freely swing. And so on. Some tools, it makes sense for: MW Move Silently tools might involve muffling covers for metal objects and such, and that wouldn't need time to use. But I can't think of a Spellcraft tool that would be non-magical, always-on and hands-free, which are pretty much requirements for the uses you typically put Spellcraft to.

I don't have any problem with other people handwaving MW tools, but I personally need an explanation before I OK them - I don't require realism in my D&D worlds, but I do require that we be able to imagine what's happening.