Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

[Gotterdammerung]

{Scrubbed}

[Big Fau]

I understand that this is not the correct way or the intended way to use the tier list. My complaint was never about the "intentions of" or "proper uses for" the tier list. My complaint was about the negative consequences caused by the tier list, as I have witnessed it, and my general disdain for those consequences.

Except you are arguing about just that. Your issue stems from the fact that some people you know have a poor understanding of the intent behind the Tiers list, and that these misunderstandings have caused friction. It's classic miscommunication.

Merely having the Tier list does not cause friction, it's people who do not understand it's purposes. This is true for any tier system for any game, not just D&D. I've seen similar arguments over Pokemon tiers and fighting games as I have for D&D, simply because those people don't understand the system.

[Petrocorus]

What about the Spirit Shaman?

It's from Complete Divine like the Favoured Soul but it's not included in the Tier list.

What tier should it be in? 2?

And what about the Dragon Shaman and DFA?

[Answerer]

Spirit Shaman is weird, it's probably borderline between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

[Lans]

What about the Spirit Shaman?

It's from Complete Divine like the Favoured Soul but it's not included in the Tier list.

What tier should it be in? 2?

And what about the Dragon Shaman and DFA?

bottom tier 1, 4, 3

[MukkTB]

Spirit Shaman is low tier 1.
A. Given a days preparation he can cast any spell on his list.
B. The Druid spell list is a tier 1 list.
That said the druid list is weaker than the Wizard list and the loss of the animal companion reduces him from doing 2.5 party members worth of work down to 1.5 or so.

I don't know what tier the favored or DFA is soul is.

I believe the dragon shaman clocks in at tier 4. It has a few things going for it here or there, but they don't come together convincingly.

[LordBlades]

Spirit Shaman is low tier 1.
A. Given a days preparation he can cast any spell on his list.
B. The Druid spell list is a tier 1 list.
That said the druid list is weaker than the Wizard list and the loss of the animal companion reduces him from doing 2.5 party members worth of work down to 1.5 or so.

I don't know what tier the favored or DFA is soul is.

I believe the dragon shaman clocks in at tier 4. It has a few things going for it here or there, but they don't come together convincingly.

Honestly, I'd say it's high tier 2 rather than low tier 1. Compared to druids it loses a ton of versatility. The druid's spell list, while good lacks both strong divinations as well as many open-ended spells (like planar binding, wish or polymorph). Yes, a spirit shaman that knows what's coming can adjust his spell list accordingly, but a spirit shaman doesn't really have the tools to know what's coming. A druid doesn't either, but as a druid you get to prepare for a larger variety of situations, especially since no situational spell is wasted on a druid as you can convert them to SNA, and there's very few situations in D&D where throwing more warm bodies at them isn't at leas somewhat beneficial.

[Arbane]

Did I imply that Marx's goal of a classless society where idealistic equality takes precedent over individual merit was reminiscent of the goals and final result of the tier system?

I think you are mistaking a diagnosis of the problem for a prescription for the solution.

One solution, BTW, is to play something BESIDES D&D. There are plenty of non-class-and-level RPGs out there, folks.

[obryn]

I don't play much 3.x anymore, but I wish I'd had this when I did. :D

Has anyone looked into this with Arcana Evolved classes? I still have d20 PTSD from when my party's Magister and Greenbond chain-demolished every obstacle while our totem warrior, champion, and ... well, whoever the other guys were; they made such little impact I can't even remember ... cheered them on. I'm guessing that, while there might be some 'buyback' for a generally more restricted spell list, combining the best aspects of wizard and sorcerer (along with some insane feats which auto-stun or force monsters to use their Int scores for saving throws, along with general higher save DCs) would push them into T1 easily.

...the game dissolved around 12th level or so.

-O

[MukkTB]

Honestly, I'd say it's high tier 2 rather than low tier 1. Compared to druids it loses a ton of versatility. The druid's spell list, while good lacks both strong divinations as well as many open-ended spells (like planar binding, wish or polymorph). Yes, a spirit shaman that knows what's coming can adjust his spell list accordingly, but a spirit shaman doesn't really have the tools to know what's coming. A druid doesn't either, but as a druid you get to prepare for a larger variety of situations, especially since no situational spell is wasted on a druid as you can convert them to SNA, and there's very few situations in D&D where throwing more warm bodies at them isn't at leas somewhat beneficial.

It comes down to the spell list. The Druid's animal companion alone is tier 4. The Druids shapeshifting alone seems to be agreed to be tier 3. The ranger with Druid shapeshifting as an ACF is reported at tier 3. So if the Druid is tier 1, its because his spell list put him there.

[MeiLeTeng]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

It's a tool, dude. You're complaining about the equivalent of a hammer. I mean I guess if you don't like hammers great, just don't use them. Right now, though, you're doing the equivalent of running through the hardware store screaming about how they ruined carpentry when they invented hammers.

[Pandoras Folly]

My onlyquestion is howmany GMs require the XP expenditures stated for spells and other magic? I know the GM I did play with that did that caused our WIZZZZAARRRD player to become apoplectic when the dm knocked him down a lvl due to XP expenditure. Frankly the dm had been planning it and the guy danced on the munchkin line regularly.

[WhatBigTeeth]

The argument gets tiring after you've seen it loop once or twice.

How could 5 more years of the same dang threads possibly not enthrall?

[Gavinfoxx]

Can we add some of the elaborations from here?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...Ftopic%3D11714

[Con_Brio1993]

It's a tool, dude. You're complaining about the equivalent of a hammer. I mean I guess if you don't like hammers great, just don't use them. Right now, though, you're doing the equivalent of running through the hardware store screaming about how they ruined carpentry when they invented hammers.

It really is hilarious.

"I understand that the people I interact with are using the tier system wrong, ergo the whole tier system is a blight on the universe with no positives!"

[Zale]

Did i imply that Communism, an idea that is noble on paper and even works for certain cultures but on the whole is usually ruined by the people who practice it, is similar to the tier system.

I am beginning to wonder if you understand that the Tier System is not some magical game-ruining force.

The Tier System is simply a nice rule of thumb that says X class has more options/power than Y class, provided all classes are equally optimized.

I fail utterly to see how that can ruin anything. Any problems are the fault of the game system of D&D itself, not the information that can be derived from it.

[navar100]

I am beginning to wonder if you understand that the Tier System is not some magical game-ruining force.

The Tier System is simply a nice rule of thumb that says X class has more options/power than Y class, provided all classes are equally optimized.

I fail utterly to see how that can ruin anything. Any problems are the fault of the game system of D&D itself, not the information that can be derived from it.

That is what the Tier System is.

That is not how the Tier System is used. It is that incorrect use that leads to ruin. That is where the fault truly comes from.

[Philistine]

My onlyquestion is howmany GMs require the XP expenditures stated for spells and other magic? I know the GM I did play with that did that caused our WIZZZZAARRRD player to become apoplectic when the dm knocked him down a lvl due to XP expenditure. Frankly the dm had been planning it and the guy danced on the munchkin line regularly.

What your DM did was in fact against the rules.

[Pandoras Folly]

What your DM did was in fact against the rules.

The dm did say are you sure you want to do this several times. The cleric also seconded the dms ruling as he confirmed the dm had stated it as one of his house rules at the beginning of the game. Frankly I hardly ever play a caster, if I want to be a wizard I play mage: the ascension although i've always favored a perma.ent HP loss rather than a loss in XP, has much more of a "sacrificed vital force" feel to it....and plays into the weak old man wizard stereotype to boot.

[IdleMuse]

What your DM did was in fact against the rules.

Even rule zero?

[Pandoras Folly]

Also. No responses to my original question.

In my experience when rules and ingredients are not ignored tier one players tend to tone it down a bit. Like in middle of a long long dungeon and the dm reminds the wizard he only has 5 more spell components. The implication of course is not x spell components, but I'm watching you like a hawk. I actually witnessed a wizard run out once.....still pretty effective though, not everything requires components.

[WhatBigTeeth]

In my experience when rules and ingredients are not ignored tier one players tend to tone it down a bit. Like in middle of a long long dungeon and the dm reminds the wizard he only has 5 more spell components.

That's not "not ignoring the rules," that's "making up new caster-unfriendly rules." The difference isn't subtle.

[Pandoras Folly]

That's not "not ignoring the rules," that's "making up new caster-unfriendly rules." The difference isn't subtle.

how is requiring a wizard to have balls of guano and sulfur on him if he wants to throw fireballs making up rules? Or a 25gp of oynx for each hit die for an animate dead?

[Larkas]

how is requiring a wizard to have balls of guano and sulfur on him if he wants to throw fireballs making up rules? Or a 25gp of oynx for each hit die for an animate dead?

Read this.

[Amphetryon]

how is requiring a wizard to have balls of guano and sulfur on him if he wants to throw fireballs making up rules? Or a 25gp of oynx for each hit die for an animate dead?

Except for specifically costly components, the ownership of a spell component pouch should provide sufficient materials for a caster. A DM that's requiring the specific tracking of extremely cheap components like guano and sulfur (or inflating the prices of same) is engaging in a houserule with the apparent intent of reigning in the caster's abilities.

[Story]

RAW a caster has infinite (noncostly) components as long as they have a pouch. And houseruling otherwise is generally pretty stupid because it adds annoyance and complication without doing anything to address the Wizard's actual power. It's like putting out a "you must be this munchkinny to play" sign.

Assuming that they also banned Eschew Material Components of course.

[JaronK]

Honestly, if a DM started caring about the free components that come in the pouch (I think they all care about the costly ones, but that's different), I'd just take Eschew Materials and call it a day. Or be a Shadowcraft Mage, since all you need then is some fleece (which you're probably wearing).

JaronK

[Hirax]

There are people that make casters obtain individual spell components worth less than 1GP? The thing that the rules themselves suggest that you not do? D&D involves enough bookkeeping without that as it is, trying to fix something by making it more tedious with more real life bookkeeping hassles is a stupid approach. Especially given that those components generally only apply to arcane spells, so you're just going to cause people to sidestep the issue by either being a cleric, or even just taking eschew materials.

[Pandoras Folly]

So...its a single use bag of holdin...

Im going to get one of those, be a thrikreen and say the bag holds all the thousands of daggers im spaming. Because that wont fly with most people. I have to account for arrows, daggers,and how many feet of rope I have. How much did raw sulphur cost in the middle ages? Also assuming you are in an area that has bats to begin with.

[Con_Brio1993]

So...its a single use bag of holdin...

Im going to get one of those, be a thrikreen and say the bag holds all the thousands of daggers im spaming. Because that wont fly with most people. I have to account for arrows, daggers,and how many feet of rope I have. How much did raw sulphur cost in the middle ages? Also assuming you are in an area that has bats to begin with.

Eschew materials. You simply added a small feat tax.