OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[Ruck]

Yes, but I have a hard time imagining that Dwarven law doesn't have a law against damage of other people's property.

Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

[hroþila]

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote? 'Cause I think that might be where the disconnect is here.

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)

No, I don't think he necessarily cares about individuals (any more than would be expected of a presumably non-Evil deity).

[Windscion]

I don't understand why people think that breaking the wall or ceiling would trigger petrification, given that whoever does so will be standing outside of the zone of the spell effect.

Also, enroll me in the church of sudden sunlight please.

[Ganbatte]

which leaves Dvalin in a tough spot, barring a Sending from the Council saying, "Hey, so we voted this way, but I strongly suspect like 70% of us are Dominated right now."

That would actually be hilarious

[Peelee]

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote?

Not only to care about the mortals like that, but also then care so little that he effectively babysits the elders to make sure they do what they're supposed to do, despite all the safeguards already out in place.

Its an incredibly specific level of caring and respect (and lack thereof), really.

[Kish]

No, I don't think he necessarily cares about individuals (any more than would be expected of a presumably non-Evil deity).

The parenthetical makes this a less straightforward answer than it might seem.

How much do you expect of a (you can call him Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good; I think the former is more likely but I also think based on what the comic's shown so far it doesn't matter that much) deity?

[Xyril]

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)

I'm very curious why you feel that way--actually, I guess I'm a bit more specific curious what you would see as a more "neutral" portrayal of the gods. I think his portrayal has been very consistent with the way many pantheistic religions portray their deities--as imperfect individuals, some more selfish, some outright benevolent, many who can't be characterized easily as good or evil. He brings a few new things to the table--the various ways mortals power the gods, for example--and an interesting exploration on how this relationship might impact their relationship with each other and with mortals. Many of the deities seem to legitimately care about their worshipers as more than a necessary source of nourishment, and even the apparent indifference or capriciousness of the gods are explained by their justified reluctance to undermine a set of rules that exist for a very good reason.

Moreover, as far as we know, the gods and their realms are the totality of existence. While it might seem callous that the gods would prioritize their own survival over those countless individual worlds, there's a good chance that if they're wiped out, there will be nobody left to remember the worlds that died, to build new worlds, and to bring hope of one day ending the cycle of constant destruction. Plus, if Minrah's speculation is correct, all the souls in all of the afterlives would be Snarl food.

Also, Thor really is the best god ever.

[Rrmcklin]

For me, my only question is how the vote is conducted and how Davlin is given the answer. Depending on the answer to that question is how believable I'll find this situation. Note, I expect a satisfying answer to this question exists because I think the Giant is a good writer, I'm just saying it's a question that I have.

That being said, I do appreciate the elaboration on how the vampires plan on using the Council's own procedures for their plan, I had been wondering about that. Based on what Durkon said a few strips ago, there should be another barrier right?

[M.A.D]

That discussion wasn't about the mortal defenses that were bound to be present at the meeting but rather the existance of Dvalin, a demigod, standing above all this process and thus theoretically in charge of making sure the vote was legitimate and represented the will of the council as per his oath.

Nothing that this strip tells us about the barriers addresses that, so the doubts about the plan that were explained back then are still all here.

Also nobody ever talked about apologizing, but changing one's mind. There's nothing to apologize for here even if that theory was proven incorrect as it was just a theory.
It seems you're the one who's trying to start a fight, albeit quite unsuccesfully.

I've followed your arguments since the last thread. I think we all weren't on the same page from the start.

You're under the assumption that DnD gods are omnipotent, all powerful, all seeing, and always so perfect that they wouldn't allow any mistake on the mortal's parts. And any such attempt to pool the proverbial wool over their all-seeing eyes are to be met with divine retribution of fire and brimstone.

I assure you, they're not. They're only as powerful as the story requires them to be. They're flawed and arguable and limited. Heck, if you were reading OoTS from the beginning you should have known that too.

Now, let's establish that Dvalin can, as a god, make mistakes. And assume what he knows, his enemies knows too. And finally, assume he's unprepared for all situations, whereas Hel has had time to plan based on what she knows of him and everyone else. Heck, involving Dvalin wasn't even the main thing. It was like, the second option of her contingency plan.

From the beginning, there was that bet between Thor and Hel. And what that led to was The Dwarves developing into the most lawful, rule-abiding, honour-bound society in the world. Note that it's "society", as in what they accept as the social norm. It obviously have to vary from person yo person.

So what would a god-king of that society do about dwarven vote-tempering, having made an oath and bound to it? Nothing. He's a dwarf. He was born so lawful that he doesn't have a reason to believe another dwarf would temper votes. And as a model votee, he cannot get involved with his own voters. That is to say, the total process of dwarven voting is completely free of influence from Dvalin, otherwise it's meaningless to have a vote.

The Dwarven council, on the other hand, did what they could against foreign enemies, while also leaving a loop hole that their own dwarven people can exploit. Either that or they're lawful to the point of being absolute certain that a dwarf would never betray his own kind. But in any case, it's got enough build-in defenses that only a dwarven vampire who knows the upper echelon's system inside out could get through it to tamper with the vote. I'd say it's enough of a one-in-million thing to not consider.

[Xyril]

Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

Plus, there's a ton of stuff that the law has ways of making right (i.e., holding one person responsible for fixing) that isn't criminalized, and thus not "breaking the law" per se. Deliberately damaging property is a criminal offense in most real world nations, but a system where property crimes are handled by something like a tort system is certainly plausible.

Then again, these guys think that trees are evil beings who need to be smote; it wouldn't surprise me if they thought the stone roof was an innocent being that needed to be protected.

[dtilque]

I don't understand why people think that breaking the wall or ceiling would trigger petrification, given that whoever does so will be standing outside of the zone of the spell effect.

It depends on whether the person is inside or outside. If it happens, I expect it will be a last ditch tactic when everything else failed. But for there to be an "everything else", he'd have to be inside.

Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

They wouldn't need a specific law for the Council Chamber, just a general law on destroying property. And I'd expect that law to apply to any community property as well as other people's personal property. Why should it not?

[pendell]

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf

Wait just a minute, Grey WOlf. The last time we had this conversation you insisted that the elders meeting were not top-level politicians. We had agreed that they were not the current Dwarven government or parliament. You stated that they were simply old people , holdovers for ceremonial purposes like the house of Lords. Have you changed your mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

Prediction: In face of the petrification spell should there be any physical attacks on the voters, Belkar takes the bullet and attacks them. He is petrified just like Kraagor and the prophecy comes true.

[pendell]

Prediction: In face of the petrification spell should there be any physical attacks on the voters, Belkar takes the bullet and attacks them. He is petrified just like Kraagor and the prophecy comes true.

I don't think so and I'll tell you why; because the petrification only lasts until the meeting adjourns. That would not fulfill the prophecy. He's supposed to die permanently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tervalas]

Turns them to stone inside the blue barrier....always helps to have a weapon of Thor you can throw from outside.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think so and I'll tell you why; because the petrification only lasts until the meeting adjourns. That would not fulfill the prophecy. He's supposed to die permanently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

In my defense, I had first read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

No, wait.

[zimmerwald1915]

In my defense, I had first read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

No, wait.

That's not on.

(I also read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep, coming off about 12 hours of work. Explains the snafu re: polymorph, though I think I'd still like to see the Order as a party of dwarves)

(Also re: the disintegrate discussion upthread, surely passwall would be the better spell? Assuming the field doesn't wrap around the chamber inside the wall, which it probably does?)

[Ruck]

That's not on.

(I also read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep, coming off about 12 hours of work. Explains the snafu re: polymorph, though I think I'd still like to see the Order as a party of dwarves)

(Also re: the disintegrate discussion upthread, surely passwall would be the better spell? Assuming the field doesn't wrap around the chamber inside the wall, which it probably does?)

Would Passwall create a hole to allow sunlight through?

They wouldn't need a specific law for the Council Chamber, just a general law on destroying property. And I'd expect that law to apply to any community property as well as other people's personal property. Why should it not?

I mean, why should they? This requires several assumptions of facts not in evidence. And the storyteller in me thinks that Durkon's new hammer + Durkon being the son of a gifted sapper is going to come into play here.

[Ganbatte]

I've followed your arguments since the last thread. I think we all weren't on the same page from the start.

You're under the assumption that DnD gods are omnipotent, all powerful, all seeing, and always so perfect that they wouldn't allow any mistake on the mortal's parts. And any such attempt to pool the proverbial wool over their all-seeing eyes are to be met with divine retribution

hroþila sssssave meeeee

I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.

*dusts out*

I assure you, they're not. They're only as powerful as the story requires them to be. They're flawed and arguable and limited. Heck, if you were reading OoTS from the beginning you should have known that too.

I do! Which is why I never once argued otherwise!

Aaaaaahhhh

Now, let's establish that Dvalin can, as a god, make mistakes---
So what would a god-king of that society do about dwarven vote-tempering, having made an oath and bound to it? Nothing. He's a dwarf. He was born so lawful that he doesn't have a reason to believe another dwarf would temper votes. And as a model votee, he cannot get involved with his own voters. That is to say, the total process of dwarven voting is completely free of influence from Dvalin, otherwise it's meaningless to have a vote.

Okay, but there's no indication in the comic that Dvalin has this "dwarfs wouldn't cheat" mindset you describe.
A valid theory but a theory still, meaning it's not enough to dissuade from the doubts born from the elements the comic does provide.

And besides watching over a voting is not the same as influencing the voters. They're two entirely separate worlds.
A judge overseeing a ballot to make sure no foul play is at hand isn't influencing the people putting in the voting papers, it's just a judge doing his job to make sure the result is legitimate.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would Passwall create a hole to allow sunlight through?

Spell creates a tunnel with a radius between 3 and 5 feet judging by it's use in Girard's pyramid, and more importantly, 20 feet deep at Vaarsuvius's level (it's not on Durkon's spell list, but neither is disintegrate). It gets you further through a thick stone wall (such as the side of a mountain) than disintegrate does, and uses a lower-level slot meaning you can cast more of them.

[The_Weirdo]

That's not on.

Sorry, what do you mean? o_O

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry, what do you mean? o_O

"Not on" = not a polite or courteous or considerate thing to do. In this case, making me think you were Pendell for a moment.

[The_Weirdo]

"Not on" = not a polite or courteous or considerate thing to do. In this case, making me think you were Pendell for a moment.

Thanks!

Respectfully,

zimmerwald1915 Ever played Persona 4? If so, shout: "You are not me!" at me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait just a minute, Grey WOlf. The last time we had this conversation you insisted that the elders meeting were not top-level politicians. We had agreed that they were not the current Dwarven government or parliament. You stated that they were simply old people , holdovers for ceremonial purposes like the house of Lords. Have you changed your mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Current ones? No. But the building was created back when, one assumes, the council of clans was the highest level of government.

And heck, even the modern ones should have a fair share of evil heads of clans that would still complain if the building defences targeted them.

Grey Wolf

[georgie_leech]

By Odin's Beard, Gontor IS the most Evil of life-forms: A Lawyer!

You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.

Objection: Politicians exist.

[factotum]

I just had a thought as to how Durkon et al. can break the Ex-Exarch's plan:

Spoiler

Show

The Dominated people in the council chamber have been told to obey any instruction given them by a vampire, but they're just regular dwarves with no supernatural ability to tell who's a vampire and who isn't--so if Durkon, Minrah and Hilgya put fake teeth in and pretend to be vampires, they ought to be able to countermand the Exarch's orders at the critical moment.

[The_Weirdo]

I just had a thought as to how Durkon et al. can break the Ex-Exarch's plan:

Spoiler

Show

The Dominated people in the council chamber have been told to obey any instruction given them by a vampire, but they're just regular dwarves with no supernatural ability to tell who's a vampire and who isn't--so if Durkon, Minrah and Hilgya put fake teeth in and pretend to be vampires, they ought to be able to countermand the Exarch's orders at the critical moment.

It is the kind of thing Hilgya would suggest - and at which Durkon would balk.

It would also drive some people here crazy.

[Dion]

It is the kind of thing Hilgya would suggest - and at which Durkon would balk.

It would also drive some people here crazy.

It sounds to me like the kind of thing Elan would suggest, and Roy would balk at.

Except Elan is chaotic good and Hilgya is chaotic evil, so Elan would use grape jelly for fake blood, and even put fake teeth in Banjo.

[alwaysbebatman]

And besides watching over a voting is not the same as influencing the voters. They're two entirely separate worlds.
A judge overseeing a ballot to make sure no foul play is at hand isn't influencing the people putting in the voting papers, it's just a judge doing his job to make sure the result is legitimate.

But that's NOT his job. The President who has to abide by and enforce the outcome of a vote can't *also* be an election judge. It would be a conflict of interest.

[Dion]

But that's NOT his job. The President who has to abide by and enforce the outcome of a vote can't *also* be an election judge. It would be a conflict of interest.

Also, the vampires literally announced their plan out loud in front of every high cleric of the northern pantheon in comic 1016 (including Dvalin’s own high cleric).

If Dvalin does not already know the vampire’s plan after it’s been literally announced in public to his own high cleric, then Dvalin is so completely disinterested in the mortal world that he won’t figure the plan out now, or ever.

If he does know, then I think we can safely assume there is some silly rule that causes him to be unable to do anything useful with the information.