Tumble

[hivedragon]

I don't like how tumble works by RAW. How about you roll d20+dexmod+ranks in tumble-10 and add the result to your AC as you move past monsters.

[myancey]

I don't like how tumble works by RAW. How about you roll d20+dexmod+ranks in tumble-10 and add the result to your AC as you move past monsters.

Because then you take a skill that already has optimal use and break it into severely abused pieces. Why would you move using anything but tumble?

[hivedragon]

Because then you take a skill that already has optimal use and break it into severely abused pieces.

I don't understand what you mean. If anything I am making tumble less broken.

Why would you move using anything but tumble?

because you have to tumble at half your speed and you can't tumble in medium or heavy armor.

[myancey]

I don't understand what you mean. If anything I am making tumble less broken.

First off, you would be adding your Dex mod twice.

d20+dexmod+ranks in tumble-10 and add the result to your AC

The "dexmod" and remainder of AC account for the two of those.

Secondly, the net result of your proposed check simply adds your AC to the result of the original skill roll, -10 of course. But AC normally adds 10, so your proposed roll comes out as Skill roll + AC modifier. AC Modifier is defined as AC - 10. That creates a powerful result for overcoming the DCs listed in the various entries of the tumble skill.

The way your check is written, it seems as though anyone would get the opportunity to attack if the tumbler moved past. It's likely that only a natural 20 would land with the way the check is written.

because you have to tumble at half your speed and you can't tumble in medium or heavy armor.

But everyone not wearing those two forms of armor (so at least half of the classes offered in 3.5) would be. And mithril would help with that too.

And you can move at your full speed. This is from SRD:

Accelerated Tumbling

You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a -10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.

[theForce017]

I agree with myancey, tumble is not a broken skill but if you were to add it to your AC then yea it would be too useful and everyone that doesn't have a ridiculous AC due to medium/heavy armor would be using it. Not only this but if your just trying to get past a bad guy without the attack of opportunity, their are other ways around this (armband of elusive action MIC) Your dex is included in your AC for this reason. If you are a Dexterous character then you will be harder to hit due to the fact your AC includes dex.

[Ivellius]

Yeah...this actually makes Tumble even better.

As a side note, dwarves can tumble no matter what they're wearing or carrying. I really ought to make a tumbling full-plate wearing dwarf sometime.

[hivedragon]

Okay I think I'm misinterpreting something. As I understand it, if I roll 15 or higher I am immune to attacks of oportunity. My way the enemies can actually make attacks of oportunity against me.

[King Atticus]

As a side note, dwarves can tumble no matter what they're wearing or carrying. I really ought to make a tumbling full-plate wearing dwarf sometime.

Where's this come from? Because it may be the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Man, I love tumbling characters.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay I think I'm misinterpreting something. As I understand it, if I roll 15 or higher I am immune to attacks of oportunity. My way the enemies can actually make attacks of oportunity against me.

It basically does the same thing, as the average roll of ten cancels out the penalty, effectively giving you an AC bonus equal to your tumble modifier, and it works against all attacks that round, not AoOs.

[myancey]

Okay I think I'm misinterpreting something. As I understand it, if I roll 15 or higher I am immune to attacks of oportunity. My way the enemies can actually make attacks of oportunity against me.

You're not immune. You make a check--if you fail, then you provoke an AoO. SRD says that in this line:

Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally.

Also, you make rolls for each person you move past separately, as stated in SRD here:

Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie).

It is certainly not broken. Tumble needs no nerfs, and no bonuses.

Where's this come from? Because it may be the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Man, I love tumbling characters.

Yeah, I pretty much wanna do that too.

[Glimbur]

Where's this come from? Because it may be the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Man, I love tumbling characters.

You can't tumble if your speed is reduced by your armor or encumbrance. Dwarves are not slowed down by armor. Therefore... tumbling in full plate.

[King Atticus]

You can't tumble if your speed is reduced by your armor or encumbrance. Dwarves are not slowed down by armor. Therefore... tumbling in full plate.

That...is...so...glorious.

[tyckspoon]

You can't tumble if your speed is reduced by your armor or encumbrance. Dwarves are not slowed down by armor. Therefore... tumbling in full plate.

Still affected by Armor Check Penalty, naturally, but that's a fairly minor obstacle.

[Douglas]

I think there's a major misinterpretation going on here - the OP is not suggesting to have Tumble add to AC for all purposes, but rather to have it add to AC specifically vs movement-based AoOs. This is almost a straight up nerf, as enemies do at least get to roll their attacks rather than being denied the chance entirely.

[FMArthur]

Why not just Tumble versus their attack bonus, or just adopt the Tumble vs CMD that Pathfinder uses? A Tumble roll versus a bunch of flat DCs is much, much better for gameflow than what amounts to an opposed roll from everyone you pass.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think there's a major misinterpretation going on here - the OP is not suggesting to have Tumble add to AC for all purposes, but rather to have it add to AC specifically vs movement-based AoOs. This is almost a straight up nerf, as enemies do at least get to roll their attacks rather than being denied the chance entirely.

But he didn't make it clear in the text. He just said to add it to AC.

Besides, we've moved on, we're now discussing full plate wearing dwarves who do backflips.

[Douglas]

But he didn't make it clear in the text. He just said to add it to AC.

Add to AC "as you move past monsters." To me, that seems pretty clear that it's specifically for the attacks related to the mentioned movement.

[myancey]

Add to AC "as you move past monsters." To me, that seems pretty clear that it's specifically for the attacks related to the mentioned movement.

I disagree. As Swiftmongoose says, he didn't make it clear...at all. He could have meant any number of things with what he was trying to say. He wasn't exactly clear on the details. Plus...more than one person read it as saying the same, convoluted thing I thought it was saying.

Why not just Tumble versus their attack bonus, or just adopt the Tumble vs CMD that Pathfinder uses? A Tumble roll versus a bunch of flat DCs is much, much better for gameflow than what amounts to an opposed roll from everyone you pass.

Truth.

Besides, we've moved on, we're now discussing full plate wearing dwarves who do backflips.

Which is basically the coolest thing ever. Scottish accents (at least in Salvatore's books) and back flips make for wicked NPCs...or players.

[Kosjsjach]

I think I really like the idea of Tumble vs the enemy attack bonus. Is there anything I'm missing that makes this unfair or non-viable?

(Also, tumbling fullplate dwarves are indeed cool.)

[myancey]

I think I really like the idea of Tumble vs the enemy attack bonus. Is there anything I'm missing that makes this unfair or non-viable?

(Also, tumbling fullplate dwarves are indeed cool.)

It's not necessarily a bad thing. It is in the method listed above that I take issue. It's in trying to combine a skill with AC, two items begging for people to break them. Yes, a natural 20 would still succeed on making a regular attack--obviously missing the critical confirm.

Another point mentioned was that it would slow down the game progress. The current skill roll has you attempting to make a set DC as you try and pass people. This means you roll 5 15's. Otherwise, you'd need to compare rolls to the attackers, slowing the game down.

[Gan The Grey]

I just have each additional attacker beyond the first increase the DC by 2. Simple and elegant.

[myancey]

I just have each additional attacker beyond the first increase the DC by 2. Simple and elegant.

Yeah, that's a basic SRD rule for tumble as well.

Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

[Gan The Grey]

Yeah, that's a basic SRD rule for tumble as well.

See? I'm not the only one who thought it was a good idea.

Edited for clarity.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I have a glorious image of a spiked fullplate wearing dwarf who curls himself into an armoured ball and rolls around the battlefield exclusively using tumble, bull rush and overrun

[Eloel]

I have a glorious image of a spiked fullplate wearing dwarf who curls himself into an armoured ball and rolls around the battlefield exclusively using tumble, bull rush and overrun

Are there blue dwarves? Or can we please paint the fullplate blue?

[Gwendol]

However, it is easy enough to gain enough skill in Tumble to not have to roll for passing the DC. On the other hand, is it such a bad thing that some, mostly low-to medium HD classes can move around the battlefield ignoring AoO's?
The skill is hardly broken as is.

[Curmudgeon]

I think I really like the idea of Tumble vs the enemy attack bonus. Is there anything I'm missing that makes this unfair or non-viable?

Yeah, you just changed a basic mechanic from something you know how to do, to a risk. Now, if you wanted to also make any spell fail unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check higher than any enemy attack bonus in the spell's range, that might make for an equitable set of changes. Tumble is a skill that my Rogues use more than Tier 1 classes use spellcasting. Having spellcasters not know in advance if they'll be able to cast successfully might add some much-needed challenge to the most powerful characters.

Is making Tumble risky going to increase the fun of the game for players?

[FMArthur]

If you use enemies that know how to tumble and prioritize their targets in battle, and you play with players interested in performing an actual 'tank' role, then yes. There are only two classes in the whole game who are actually capable of preventing enemies from just rolling past them to punch the squishies - such as your casters, a plot escort, or your pack mules - and that's a problem.

Paladin Nobly McJust shouts "never fear, fair maiden: stand behind me I shall protect you.", and Assassin Meany McJerk just stifles some laughter, says "nope", and strolls on by to stab her in the face. Maybe he should have been a Crusader or a Knight. Or maybe he shouldn't have to do that at all to be able to protect anyone.

[NNescio]

I have a glorious image of a spiked fullplate wearing dwarf who curls himself into an armoured ball and rolls around the battlefield exclusively using tumble, bull rush and overrun

Thibbledorf Pwent?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thibbledorf Pwent?

No, he charges with his helmet spike and uses his spiked gauntlets and armor in grappling.