Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

[Arkhios]

Ah true enough but I would take 3 attacks (PAM + extra attack) over 1 strong attack every day of the week for the bigger chance to land at least some damage each turn to be honest. :)

Sure, you might. That, however, wasn't the point to my understanding; the point was that Tomelock could mimic relatively well both Chainlock and Bladelock (in this case) - not as good as either, but close.

[Polarthief]

How is the Shillelagh cantrip superior until level 12 when you only get one attack with it while blade gets 2 at level 5? O_o

I sort of did forget about that in my specific circumstance because I'm going Tomelock 5/Soul Sorc 15 (Soul Sorc gives EA at L6), but as Arkhios pointed out, EA is pretty weak with BB/GFB (since you're casting a spell and not taking the "Attack Action", EA doesn't trigger from BB/GFB).

Sure, you might. That, however, wasn't the point to my understanding; the point was that Tomelock could mimic relatively well both Chainlock and Bladelock (in this case) - not as good as either, but close.

Exactly, though I could argue about being as good as Bladelock, depending on what you specifically wanted to do. There's no question that Chainlocks have better familiars than Tomelocks (though if you only wanted him to cast Touch-ranged spells, they'd be pretty equal), but until L12 and assuming you're going Cha, Shillelagh is going to be pretty strong. The only best-case scenario I can think of is if you went Lore Bard 6-8 picked up Shillelagh, went Bladelock 12. Now you have EA, BB/GFB, Shillelagh, and Lifedrinker (Lifedrinker does stack with Shillelagh AFAIK, giving your weapon a base 1d8+2x Cha), though then you're stuck as a "Blade"lock using a club or staff.

Aaaaanyway, that's what I was getting at. The versatility of the Tomelock is unparalleled and can work as a fine melee-lock if done properly. Bladelocks may get EA, but then they need to MAD Str and/or Dex, while Shillelagh completely removes the need to dump ASIs into them (might want some base Str or Dex for armor though). Having to trade more to-hit for Charisma/vice versa/giving up feats kinda blows, at least that's how I see it. Think of it this way: Would you rather boost one stat that boosts your spellcasting and melee damage, or one stat that only does one or the other? The only huge downside is losing Lifedrinker, though with Shillelagh, you get more to-hit and base attack damage for only one stat (though again, Lore Bard 6 would let you use Cha for everything).


PS: I could be wrong about all of this anyway. After all, I only just got into D&D ~3 months ago, so feel free to take or leave my posts, it's just my 2cp. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I definitely want to be told why so I can learn for next time. Most if not all of my points are also based on idea/theorycrafting as I haven't played that much.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Actually, TomeLock can't just take the BladeLock's stuff so easily.

Both the Thirsting Blade and the Lifedrinker Invocations specify that they only grant their benefits to a Warlock's Pact Weapon (BladeLock feature), and Shillelagh doesn't qualify for those.

[Polarthief]

Actually, TomeLock can't just take the BladeLock's stuff so easily.

Both the Thirsting Blade and the Lifedrinker Invocations specify that they only grant their benefits to a Warlock's Pact Weapon (BladeLock feature), and Shillelagh doesn't qualify for those.

I'm aware and never said that Tomelock can take TB (not like it would want it since GFB/BB would probs be better) or Lifedrinker, and what says Shillelagh doesn't stack with TB/LD? Just use a Club or Quarterstaff as your Pact Weapon (as a Bladelock), problem solved (though you'd need to take Lore Bard 6 in order to do this). The only rule on your Pact Weapon is that it must be a melee weapon (RAI further specifies it must be a typical Simple or Martial weapon). Clubs and Quarterstaves are melee weapons (and to add to that, both are also Simple for the sake of RAI).

I was pointing out that Shillelagh is like Lifedrinker in a way. Lifedrinker just adds your Cha mod to your weapon damage on top of the pre-existing Str or Dex mod it already has. If you used Shillelagh though, you'd roll 1d8+Cha for your weapon's damage, then Lifedrinker adds +Cha, effectively making a Bladelock/Lore Bard with Lifedrinker+Shillelagh deal [2 * (1d8+2x Cha)] on two attacks (Attack + Thirsting Blade) or 1d8+2x Cha + BB/GFB if you went with those instead. Oh and because you're using Shillelagh, all your attack rolls add Cha, not Str/Dex, meaning you don't need to go as MAD and can use extra ASIs on Con or Feats (or whatever else you'd like, it's your character). If you're a Dex-Bladelock, your best weapon is a Rapier at 1d8+Dex anyways (pre-magic weapons), so why not just make it Cha if you're willing to put 6 levels in Bard? ;)

[Smorgonoffz]

I'm playing a warlock in a A.L game , we reached second level and i wanted to rebuild my pc into a bladelock.

Should i Start with 1 level of fighter and then Warlock alll the way, or should i wai till i'm 3rdlevel and do 2 fighter rest warlock?

Race: Variant human or another race?


Also aside from eldritch blast, should i choose among the scag cantrips?


Thanks to everyone

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I'm playing a warlock in a A.L game , we reached second level and i wanted to rebuild my pc into a bladelock.

Should i Start with 1 level of fighter and then Warlock alll the way, or should i wai till i'm 3rdlevel and do 2 fighter rest warlock?

Race: Variant human or another race?


Also aside from eldritch blast, should i choose among the scag cantrips?


Thanks to everyone

Speaking as someone playing a Lock/fighter, wait until level 3, go Fighter 1/Lock 2 IN THAT ORDER, take a level of Fighter at 4 for a total of Fighter 2/Lock 2, and then Lock all the way.

[DeAnno]

Speaking as someone playing a Lock/fighter, wait until level 3, go Fighter 1/Lock 2 IN THAT ORDER, take a level of Fighter at 4 for a total of Fighter 2/Lock 2, and then Lock all the way.

I'm a little surprised a Bladelock doesn't want Fighter 3 for Superiority Dice. I did something similar with Fighter 2/Warlock X but I was more Eldritch Blast focused.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm a little surprised a Bladelock doesn't want Fighter 3 for Superiority Dice. I did something similar with Fighter 2/Warlock X but I was more Eldritch Blast focused.

Maybe later, but I'd say that's delaying spell advancement, Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker too much.

[Asmotherion]

If the campain allows no multiclass, my best bet to being deadly is bladelock. Magic initiate to get shillellagh and try to get wisdom as high as possible (after your charisma hits 20 ofcourse). For a wile this build rellyes more on eldrich blast (as all warlocks should) but at higher level this becomes an awesome dammage dealer. Combine this with Armor of Agathis + Fiend Pact + That invocation that allows you to spam false life, use one more of your spell slots for Mage Armor and your defances are now at least decend or higher. Then, one more spell slot for hex, leaving you with one spell slot for versality to either cast a nice (persistant or not) Aoe (very situationar), or simply cast fire shield to punish melee attackers even more. And now you're out of spell slots till your next short rest... if you have any complains look at your cantrips, at-will invocations and Dammage dealing/deffences ability; still not satisfied? If not, then you shouldn't have been a warlock in the first place.

Also you need polearm master to pull this off effectivelly, as it gives you more attacks. Then War Caster, as it allows you to cast some spell when the opponent runs away from you (after realising that hitting you in melee is not a great idea, as you are effectivelly a mine), since some effects can be usefull (look at Shocking Grasp [in case characters provoke attacks of opportunity when comming toward a creature instead of just leaving the reach, which is true to my tables, and I suppose to a vast majority of other tables as a homebrew rule] and Lighting Lure [So that nobody ever runs away from you]). Sentinel will punish someone for running away making said person loose the rest of his turn.

You also don't need to raise Str which, if you did want to raise you'd probably have been an eldrich knight instead. He is the magic using fighter, you are supposed to be more of a scholar.

Now if you want more versality, you always have pact of the tome, but if you were interested in versality so much, you could have been a wizard (or dip into warlock and then wizard)

If you're more interested in rp and went warlock just for the awesome fammiliar (sorry but it is mainly a fluff pact), you are not optimised. You could have had a fammiliar as a wizard or an animal companion as a ranger if you wanted it for tactical reasons, and get much more (versality for wizards/tactical advancment for ranger). You however have gained my respect as you are more interested in Role Play than optimisation, and I salute you for that. :)

If you wanted a Spell Striker (not the ygo card) you should really have considered Sorcerer with a 2 warlock dip.

I know it's cheese and all, almost a taboo in this forum to talk about it, but it's so much of a great option that it cannot NOT be mentioned.

[Rysto]

I really don't get what a WIS-based Shillelagh brings to a Warlock. Why not skip the feat and just pump DEX or STR instead?

[Arial Black]

Speaking as someone playing a Lock/fighter, wait until level 3, go Fighter 1/Lock 2 IN THAT ORDER, take a level of Fighter at 4 for a total of Fighter 2/Lock 2, and then Lock all the way.

My current CoS PC started as Ftr 1 and then went bladelock all the way. Getting a 2nd, 3rd or 4th level of fighter gets you good stuff (and I would choose battlemaster), but analysing it showed me that getting at least 9 levels of warlock before levels 2, 3 and 4 of fighter are the way to go.

I want to use armour of agathys and hex in nearly every fight, so the sooner I get 9 levels of warlock then the sooner I cast my spells with 5th level slots and the sooner I get 25 temporary hit points, do 25 cold damage when hit, and the sooner I only have to cast hex 1/day and leave a spell slot for something other than these two spells.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I really don't get what a WIS-based Shillelagh brings to a Warlock. Why not skip the feat and just pump DEX or STR instead?

Considering it costs you a feat and who knows how many ASI's, (which could be used for DEX instead) I wouldn't recommend this.

[Rysto]

I could sort of see taking it with Pact of the Tome, because then it's CHA-based, but then you have to contrive another way to get a second attack on the Warlock (5 levels of valour bard, maybe?). It seems unwieldy no matter how you do it.

I suppose Warlock 3/Paladin X would a decent staff and board option.

[Xetheral]

I could sort of see taking it with Pact of the Tome, because then it's CHA-based, but then you have to contrive another way to get a second attack on the Warlock (5 levels of valour bard, maybe?). It seems unwieldy no matter how you do it.

I suppose Warlock 3/Paladin X would a decent staff and board option.

Favored Soul Sorcerer is another good choice for Extra Attack.

[Asmotherion]

I really don't get what a WIS-based Shillelagh brings to a Warlock. Why not skip the feat and just pump DEX or STR instead?

It's not big but in my experiance I (and most people) prefear to fail a str saving throw than a wis saving throw (as in, take some damage/not resist a field control effect rather than becoming charmed/dominated/confused)

The whole thing was mostly about concept though. Like, it's more magical... or whatever...

If you can multiclass, bard 5 to get it as a cha cantrip and then perhaps pal 2 to get access to holly smite... and the concept is not bad either... like, a warlock who praises his patron with his songs and gets a fluff variation of holy smite, like "wild smite" "eldrich smite" "unholly smite" etc...

The only problem with this build is that it nukes strong, but is out of spell amo quickly.

[Smorgonoffz]

Late reply, i decided to wait till level 4 to rebuild the character into a bladelock.

Anyways what invocations should i take as a straight warlock into Cos:

Agonizing blast is a given/must

For my second invocation what should i take:

Devil sight or mage armor at will?

[EvilAnagram]

Would start at 1 fighter 5 warlock 20 STR, polearm master, level 3 spells and overall useful stuff and coming levels would all give something useful, 7 action surge, 8 lvl 1 cleric stuff and reaction damage, 9 pact feature, 10 lvl 4 warlock spells, 11 feat/ASI. So feels like it should be pretty fun to level feature wise. :)

Sounds like fun!

I've had a busy couple of weeks, so excuse my tardiness on responding to people.

This puzzles me. What has this got to do with TWF?

You only have proficiency with your pact weapon and some less than stellar weapons, so Dual Wielding isn't terribly helpful. On top of thay, you won't add Str, Dex, or Cha to the bonus action attack, so it's really adding a d6 of damage at most, and Hex will reduce the number of times you will utilize the TWF attack. Contrast that with Polearm Bladelock, who gets way more bang for his buck.

In short, I disagree with the gap between Fighter (Dark Blue) and Barbarian (Red). They should really be the same color.

This build is occasionally an underpowered Barbarian and occasionally a Warlock two levels weaker than it should be. A Fighter Bladelock is a decent melee caster all the time. Also, Action Surge is excellent both as a caster and as a melee warrior.

Sure, you might. That, however, wasn't the point to my understanding; the point was that Tomelock could mimic relatively well both Chainlock and Bladelock (in this case) - not as good as either, but close.

Great conversation, but I think I rated them well. The Tome itself provides solid options, but it alone cannot replicate the other two as completely as you argue. It provides many options, but no cantrip can make or break a concept.

Late reply, i decided to wait till level 4 to rebuild the character into a bladelock.

Anyways what invocations should i take as a straight warlock into Cos:

Agonizing blast is a given/must

For my second invocation what should i take:

Devil sight or mage armor at will?

Devil Sight is great, especially if your grab Darkness. Don't underestimate Repelling Blast, though. It's a surprisingly useful control tool.

[acidphoenix]

*slight bump*

Do you think you could add the Undying Light patron to the guide?

Also, well done with this- I used this to help a (multiclassed from bard, along with your bard guide) plan out feats and invocations and such for warlock levels.

mostly i did undying light because Night, Warlock of the Undying Light just sounded so silly and was so unfitting of her character that it would obviously emerge a great character (and also for searing flame and the +cha to fire spells but pff)

[EvilAnagram]

*slight bump*

Do you think you could add the Undying Light patron to the guide?

Also, well done with this- I used this to help a (multiclassed from bard, along with your bard guide) plan out feats and invocations and such for warlock levels.

mostly i did undying light because Night, Warlock of the Undying Light just sounded so silly and was so unfitting of her character that it would obviously emerge a great character (and also for searing flame and the +cha to fire spells but pff)

Yeah, I'm going to get around to it. Life is busy at the moment, but I might be able to get it done this week.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Yeah, I'm going to get around to it. Life is busy at the moment, but I might be able to get it done this week.

I'm looking forward to seeing that.

For the time being, are you holding off on adding the "Undying Light" Warlock Pact (from Unearthed Arcana) until it's published elsewhere?

[acidphoenix]

I'm looking forward to seeing that.

For the time being, are you holding off on adding the "Undying Light" Warlock Pact (from Unearthed Arcana) until it's published elsewhere?

You... do realize that that was what i just asked.. in the post the post you're responding to quoted, right?

[JakOfAllTirades]

You... do realize that that was what i just asked.. in the post the post you're responding to quoted, right?

I should have realized it was!

I was rushing out the door (on my way to a D&D game, LOL) as I caught up on this thread and I thought you were asking about the Undying pact from SCAG; I really should have taken the time to read more carefully! And I've always wondered if two pacts with such similar names would create any confusion. Thanks for that, WOTC.

The Undying pact from SCAG is already in this guide isn't it?

Yes, it would appear to be!

Never mind, then.

Senility is such a royal copper plated b***h....

[Kazumi]

[*]Plane Shift: I mean, if you want to go to another plane, this is the spell to take. If you don't want to go to another plane, I advise against taking this.

Making my first post in forever to point out that Plane Shift is an extremely effective combat spell. Your target has to make a charisma save or take an unplanned vacation to the elemental plane of fire or the Abyssal Layer of Really just an Excessive Amount of Torture. And it's a permanent effect, they have to make their own way back. Meaning they usually don't come back. It's a two roll spell, sure (Melee spell attack and charisma save), but it's really the closest thing to a proper save-or-die in 5e. Its ability to completely eliminate an enemy and its utility combine to make it a truly excellent spell, even in a 7th level slot. Just don't use it on anyone with plot armor thick enough to actually crawl out of whatever pit you stuff them in.

[Millstone85]

[*]Plane Shift: I mean, if you want to go to another plane, this is the spell to take. If you don't want to go to another plane, I advise against taking this.

Making my first post in forever to point out that Plane Shift is an extremely effective combat spell. Your target has to make a charisma save or take an unplanned vacation to the elemental plane of fire or the Abyssal Layer of Really just an Excessive Amount of Torture. And it's a permanent effect, they have to make their own way back. Meaning they usually don't come back. It's a two roll spell, sure (Melee spell attack and charisma save), but it's really the closest thing to a proper save-or-die in 5e. Its ability to completely eliminate an enemy and its utility combine to make it a truly excellent spell, even in a 7th level slot. Just don't use it on anyone with plot armor thick enough to actually crawl out of whatever pit you stuff them in.

It is a pretty cool attack. And it also seems to me that a plane shift arcanum would make your party one day away from any location within your own plane.

I guess it really depends on how difficult it is to find a 250 gp fork attuned to a plane.

[Feuerphoenix]

I did not quite get the point of expended spell lists from your patron. Does that mean, you have these spells prepared, or that you also may choose spells from this list?

[Gastronomie]

I did not quite get the point of expended spell lists from your patron. Does that mean, you have these spells prepared, or that you also may choose spells from this list?

You may also choose spells from this list.

Some are really good choices. Others are not.

[Feuerphoenix]

Too bad :( a paladin knows more spells than a full caster...modern times :P

[JumboWheat01]

Too bad :( a paladin knows more spells than a full caster...modern times :P

They're probably trying to make up for all those "Lawful Stupid" times that caused a Paladin to no longer be a paladin back in the day.

If Warlocks got all their spells from their patron like how divine classes get theirs from domains, oaths and lands, it would be sweet. But I suppose that's a "divine class perk." The jerks.

[BladeWing81]

[CENTER]
Pact Boons
Pact of the Blade[/COLOR]: You get a magical weapon that can never be taken away from you, and you always get to be proficient with it. If you find a magic weapon, you can meditate on it and be proficient with it, too. At the cost of Invocations, you can be pretty freaking nasty in melee, but you will suffer from fairly weak defenses. At later levels, you can deal a whopping +14 damage per attack using Hex.

How do you get the +14 Damage per attack with hex??

[Aett_Thorn]

How do you get the +14 Damage per attack with hex??

I think that this is total bonus, not just due to Hex. With the right Invocations, you'll do Weapon Damage + Str/Dex bonus (5) + Cha bonus (5) + Hex (1d6). So basically, Weapon damage +10 + 3.5 average. Close enough to +14.