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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperdragon View Post
    I also do not care much. I also have no idea why so many do.
    Yes, it can be an expression of racism/sexism if group X is underrepresented/presented in a bad light, but it does not have to mean that.
    I even find current mainstream media silly which aim to "just cater for every group equally". If a story does not require a strong woman/orc, I really do not see the point in writing it in "just to have it".

    I also find it a bit strange as we're reading a work here from an author who has shown in his work that he does not have strong, "strong politically incorrect" prejudices against this or that group, so I think the entire issue should "just rest".

    Not every story has to make a point about X being equal, where X is every possible race, gender, orientation, philosophy and every possible combination of them. It simply gets silly and overclouds the actual telling of the story.

    If it is addressed I think a story should pick one or two and elevate them to "I have a point" and the others can slide. And OotS *did* pick something: Can you kill based on race (or more exactly, based on alignment listed in the MM) and the clear answer is "No". It also picked another thing (and I like it this has no RL parallel at all): Can you discriminate based on Character Class or Class Features? And the answer is also No. (Roy, Tarquin etc)
    Why does Rich also have to address gayness or gender and whatnot of all sorts? Not every fantasy story that is told has the requirement to also address the "Big Issues of Life", like equalty of gender, race, whatnot. It actually looks silly if some work attempts that (just watch any show (in the OotS-verse, of course) that comes out these days with the "usual mix of ethnicities, ranging from Human over Elf, to Half orc, Assimar (mix of Donkey and Celestial), Tiefling and an equal mix of strong females and males everywhere").
    It'd be different if the story here in question would explicitly show women/halflings as weak, catering to RL stereotypes and being totally useless*, but as that is really not happening, I'd, personally and in no way asking anyone not-to-do-it!, say this entire discussion belongs beyond the sideline of "we could discuss political correctness (and I think this is what it is in the very end), but let's rather enjoy the story (which does not discriminate racially/sexually)".

    PS: With me saying "I find it silly in general for any story", I do not mean that it's silly in general or consider anyone who said anything here to be silly.

    * Please do not call me out on "But the Flumphs are shown as totally useless!". No, they have romance and feelings as well!
    well i cant say about early on, but the last page or so has been people replying to Rich himself explaining how they feel and why they look at the subject. I haven't seen any indication of people saying that he should do anything. The closest is giving examples of how he could have. In a hypothetical example.

    ------------
    And i think most people are basically saying something similar to what i said. Its not about being represented and doing the slightest bit of anything like what you said.

    Its just that alot of us want to see stories where its not some strange world where we dont exist.

    There isnt a direct equivalent, but you might say it would be like if you had a story where everyone was white. Sure maybe it takes place in a part of the world where everyone IS white. But it would make sense to occasionally see a non-white tourist or someone from a tv show that originates in another country. Other wise its this strange world that is like earth but where black people and latin people dont exist (for example).

    The inverse is also true. I liked Boy Meets Boy, but sometimes i got the feeling that it was taking place in some strange alternate universe where everyone is either gay, bi, or bi curious and straight people where these enigmas that are either homophobic psychos or super squishy Kawaii girls (or bi or bi curious) .

    Again, I dont think anyone is telling Rich to do or change anything. I think they are just explaining how one could do things differently.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You do realize that there's no narrative reason for V's children to be adopted except to raise the possibility that it's a gay or lesbian marriage, right? I mean, if I wanted to eliminate that as one of the potential options, I would simply have to have made their children biologically theirs. Which would have taken no explanation at all. And which I did not do.

    And that's all I'm going to say about that.
    I was not actually sure if the intention was merely playing with the whole running gag of V being so ambiguous, but my personal take on it is that they are indeed a same gender marriage. Of course, I am projecting here, and I respect you wanting V's gender to be a mistery. Clearly in this case if I am able to get to that conclussion, is because you wanted to leave that possibility open, for what I am thankful.

    My point here was, even if you are a straight male, you do not need to worry about your ability to portray an acceptable gay character or relationship, because for me, you already did. That is, of course, my view, and I am not implying that V or Inkyrius are one gender or the other.
    Last edited by Leirus; 2013-04-09 at 09:59 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerlis View Post
    There isnt a direct equivalent, but you might say it would be like if you had a story where everyone was white.
    Far from what I say. I say you do not have to force every possible diversity into an fictitious work, this isn't denying diversity in D&D or saying everyone in any story must be "male, white, and straight".

    I also know it wasn't stated explicitly by anyone, but I pondered "Where does this massive interest come from?" Especially as it started to go beyond "Where are the strong female leaders?" or "Females are underrepresented!"

    And I think has something to do with what I wrote. Sure, people are always interested in all topics related to sexuality, but when I read this thread I had the impression it went a bit beyond it (no, I am not judging in any way). To that I replied as someone asked about "if it was that important".

    Yes, I know this wasn't about people telling Rich stuff, but I think it was about the metalayer, about what stands behind this discussion. You cannot complain I missed what you said above as I was not talking about it, but if you want you can tell me it all isn't about what I just said (it's only complete in connection with the post you quoted).
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. :/
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You do realize that there's no narrative reason for V's children to be adopted except to raise the possibility that it's a gay or lesbian marriage, right? I mean, if I wanted to eliminate that as one of the potential options, I would simply have to have made their children biologically theirs. Which would have taken no explanation at all. And which I did not do.

    And that's all I'm going to say about that.
    Thought so. Inkyrius has too square a chest to be female and as you "weren't thinking" in the old days you would not have fought to have more than a token female in your group. Thanks for the information.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Thought so. Inkyrius has too square a chest to be female and as you "weren't thinking" in the old days you would not have fought to have more than a token female in your group. Thanks for the information.
    There are flat-chested women, actually, if it's the graphic representation that bothers you.
    Or Inkyrius could be a transexual man or woman, or intersex, which all could justify a small chest.
    Therefore, your theory that V and Inkyrius are both gay (non-trans) men is not wrong, but it's not the only acceptable one, either.
    So... back to square one?
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Thought so. Inkyrius has too square a chest to be female and as you "weren't thinking" in the old days you would not have fought to have more than a token female in your group. Thanks for the information.
    What?

    Are you saying Vaarsuvius must have been planned as male to begin with, because the group already had a token female? And also that Inkyruius has to be male -- based on character design -- so they must be a gay couple?

    Because that isn't what I took out of that. It's not clear what gender V is, or what gender V's spouse is, and the idea that they MAY be gay is raised by them having adopted children, although by no means is it certain. And I have no idea what gender the Giant may have had in mind for V originally.

  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Jesus Christ, I am way too tired to be commenting if that's what that came out as.

    I meant they shouldn't ignore it or treat it as unnatural.
    Out of curiosity, what would you think if He actually answered this?
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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what would you think if He actually answered this?
    This question makes no sense, because that wasn't a question to answer and there's no indication of who this 'he' is.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You do realize that there's no narrative reason for V's children to be adopted except to raise the possibility that it's a gay or lesbian marriage, right? I mean, if I wanted to eliminate that as one of the potential options, I would simply have to have made their children biologically theirs. Which would have taken no explanation at all. And which I did not do.

    And that's all I'm going to say about that.
    Now I'm disappointed.
    I really thought you had thought of the possibility that V could be a heterosexual woman who has more important things to do than breed, and that Inky is a heterosexual man who really wants to have children.

    Or, of course, that V is in fact ambigiously-sexed, not only ambigiously-gendered, and elves of the ambigious sex are unable to father OR mother children. That would only make their relationship heterosexual if Inky is definitely male. (Or female, although he does look very male to me ...for a stick figure, that is)

    @B. Dandelion: I would love to think that V was meant to be female, but I see no hint in the early comic strips that the Giant was more aware of the "male as default" problem than other authors, and therefore I fear that V was probably meant to be male. If I remember correctly, the scene in Haley's room took place after the Giant had already become aware of V's ambiguity.

    I do prefer the idea that V is female, but I don't think it likely it was planned like that from the start.
    If the Giant told us she's female, I wouldn't object, but it has been clearly stated that we'll never know.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2013-04-09 at 11:19 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Because the only reason to not have equal representation is heteronormativity and cultural inertia.
    ...

    Rich himself just spelled out another reason on the previous page of the thread...

    And again, IMPHO, cultural inertia is not a totally invalid reason either. Cultural products (I don't disagree at all with the way Shadowknight defined "art" a few pages ago, so for the purpose of this discussion I'll be considering that an author who lives off his/her work is "a creator of cultural products", not "an artist") don't exist in a vacuum, and the unfortunately-largely-culturally-inert audience (you know, the ones paying your bills in the end) is something that you kinda sorta have to consider.



    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    For example, if the story were exactly the same way it is now, except that Roy and Belkar were women, would the story suddenly turn into a big political statement about gender-balanced parties led by an African-American woman? Or would it be the exact same story it is now, with the caveat of also not contributing to the pervasive trend where women and LGBTQ characters are being hugely underrepresented in just about every piece of media put forward?
    If you want an honest answer, it would be the exact same excellent story as it is now, except that instead of featuring a bunch of PCs that's instantly recognizable to the average reader as the purely archetypal D&D adventuring group, it would have been featuring a clearly significantly nonstandard PC mix as the protagonists.
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  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    This question makes no sense, because that wasn't a question to answer and there's no indication of who this 'he' is.
    She addressed her comment to Jesus Christ. I know that it wasn't on purpose, I just though it might be interesting to think about what you would do if he responded whenever we addressed him like that. It's something I've been working on for a while.
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    The cognitive dissonance in this post is frankly awe-inspiring.

    I would continue the discussion, but if you can't see how the PoV you're using to find one difference huge and another small is just as relative as mine, then clearly we will never see eye to eye.

    Then we must agree to disagree.
    The reason I'm able to say the genetical difference is "huge" between a modern human an a housecat and and "small" between a modern human and his direct caveman ancestor is simply that 1) I have the actual rough numbers in my head + 2) I did not think a biochemist would actually attempt to challenge that statement. I'm currently a bit late and will have to go, but I'll get back to you eventually on that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
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    For starters, it's essentially claiming that all young girls consistently suffer from the effects of growth hormone deficiency, which has a constellation of symptoms that would be very easy to spot.

    The International Olympic Committee has specifically had to restrict the entry of hyperandrogenic women, precisely because their athletic performance tends to be well above the female norm, due to their levels of male sex hormones. Conversely, transsexual men and women are allowed to compete in their respective categories, because their altered hormone regimens induce performance within the norm for their target sex.

    You are claiming that cultural differences in gender perception result in differences in childhood exercise that systematically reduce the performance of ALL women. Therefore, yes, I'm afraid that a single counter-example deflates this argument.

    Besides, the attitude that cultural gender roles will systematically limit achievement in ALL cases is as dehumanizing as the idea that biological sex will do so. It dismisses variations in life experience and personal choice just as the latter dismisses variation in natural talent. Even with cultural differences between gender- which I believe are virtually irrelevant to something like bodybuilding, unless severe malnutrition was a factor- there are going to be a certain number of women where optimal environmental variations coincide with optimal genetic variations to allow for maximum theoretical performance. These are the women you would see at the top of their game, and they still can't match the top men.

    Your reaction, in essence, is to call them lazy or their parents negligent, and that is uncalled for.
    I have to say you're definitely impressing me with both your perseverance and mastery of the English language... (overall, not merely this one post.)
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  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    ...

    Rich himself just spelled out another reason on the previous page of the thread...
    A reason which, in the end, only exists because people get it into their head that, say, gay characters need to be written 'differently', when no such difference exists.

    Also, CAN WE PLEASE DROP THE IRRELEVANT HUMAN BIOLOGY DISCUSSION? It's not even tying into media in general, let alone this comic, so can't you please use PM's as is constantly offered?
    Last edited by Raineh Daze; 2013-04-09 at 11:43 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    One other instance I might mention was Ron Edward's Sorceror and Sword supplement...
    *smacks forehead* That should be Sex and Sorcery, not Sorceror and Sword. I think I may have misquoted some of the rules, but I find the premise intriguing regardless.

    So, anyways. My basic point here is that there are ways of playing an RPG, or enjoying fantasy/SF/horror etc., that explicitly rely on exploring the powers and responsibilities associated with biological sex. And automatically dismissing this as heteronormative propaganda is going to throw out a good deal of baby with the bathwater.

    I'm not sure how relevant any of this is to the OOTS storyline, specifically- it's been touched on slightly with the belt-of-gender-changing and Kazumi's pregnancy, I guess. But both events made the explicit point that, in D&D, sex differences are purely cosmetic, so clearly it's not falling into the category I mentioned above. And yeah, I guess, on that basis, you could argue that women should be, statistically, represented a little more frequently in the strip.

    One thing I have noticed is, while there are several significantly powerful women characters in the strip, they're all described as being of well-above-average physical attractiveness (with the possible exception of Therkla.) I wouldn't say they're particularly sexualised, but it does seem to be a trend.

  16. - Top - End - #466
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperdragon View Post
    Far from what I say. I say you do not have to force every possible diversity into an fictitious work, this isn't denying diversity in D&D or saying everyone in any story must be "male, white, and straight".

    I also know it wasn't stated explicitly by anyone, but I pondered "Where does this massive interest come from?" Especially as it started to go beyond "Where are the strong female leaders?" or "Females are underrepresented!"

    And I think has something to do with what I wrote. Sure, people are always interested in all topics related to sexuality, but when I read this thread I had the impression it went a bit beyond it (no, I am not judging in any way). To that I replied as someone asked about "if it was that important".

    Yes, I know this wasn't about people telling Rich stuff, but I think it was about the metalayer, about what stands behind this discussion. You cannot complain I missed what you said above as I was not talking about it, but if you want you can tell me it all isn't about what I just said (it's only complete in connection with the post you quoted).
    now thats what i'm talking about. There shouldn't be any notion that wanting to or thinking there should be non-norm demographics in a story is deliberately putting them in.

    You dont force brown people into a story, because there are brown people everywhere(unless they are far away), you dont force women into leadership positions in your story because unless your story has some cultural reason for there not to be they should be in leadership positions anyways. And you dont force gay people into a story because they where always there. And what i was saying with the "white person" metaphor is the fact that when certain demographics that should be occasionally apparent are noticeably absent it seems very odd. Like (like my example), how a world where people who naturally have dark skin dont exist would be weird. Especially in a fantasy world where entire continents of people are forced to be in the sun constantly and thus develop dark skin as a basis.


    So yes, assuming you are saying that certain demographics shouldn't be forced into a story....I agree. Because baring some logical reason such as the world being different enough to not include a demographic (which is perfectly acceptable) then some things being non existent is weird.

    This whole thing is really no different than people wanting people to write more realistically, with heroes with real flaws that act like normal people and go to the bathroom. And people notice when there are no toilets, when there are no children, when there is no rain except when a character is sad, when there is no dark skinned people in an ancient culture, no gay people when 1 in 5 people can be, when everyone only changes shirts every 2 years.
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  17. - Top - End - #467
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Two events that have likely shaped my history on this issue:

    1.) At one point in the past, I did a very short-lived comic for Wizards of the Coast called "Five Foot Steps." Unlike OOTS, it took place in the real world, among a group of D&D players. The cast consisted of two white men, two white females, a black man, and a brown-skinned man with non-specified ethnicity (who happened to also be in a wheelchair). Almost the exact same breakdown as the Order, if you happen to read V as female. Only one character, one of the white men, had any portion of their sexuality discussed during the comic's five-page run (and he was straight).

    The reaction, universally, was that the cast was ham-handedly diverse; that obviously, Wizards had forced me to include people of color and the differently-abled because they were a huge corporation and had to be politically correct. This was not true—they gave me no input whatsoever on the content of the strip. But the very existence of a group of D&D players with three races in it was enough to confuse people.

    That made me angry and annoyed, and I resolved to bring even greater racial balance to OOTS from that point on, just to prove the point. Unfortunately, I didn't have such a learning experience with LGBT inclusion. In fact, I had almost the opposite...


    2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

    I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.
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  18. - Top - End - #468
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    And again, IMPHO, cultural inertia is not a totally invalid reason either. Cultural products (I don't disagree at all with the way Shadowknight defined "art" a few pages ago, so for the purpose of this discussion I'll be considering that an author who lives off his/her work is "a creator of cultural products", not "an artist") don't exist in a vacuum, and the unfortunately-largely-culturally-inert audience (you know, the ones paying your bills in the end) is something that you kinda sorta have to consider.
    Then the artist would be opening themselves up to criticism (including, quite possibly, self-criticism), the way any artist who compromises their principles for monetary gain opens themselves up to criticism. I don't see why "I did it for the money" should grant an artist immunity.

    There's a tumblr called Clients from Hell, where designers who are doing work for hire complain anonymously about their clients' unreasonable demands. A frequent demand is "Those stock photos are too..um...ethnic. Do you have anything that wouldn't upset people in Iowa?" Sometimes the designers still do the job, because they need the money, but to their credit they complain bitterly about it. If, as you say, a writer feels pressured to leave "ethnic" people out of their work...okay, maybe they need the money, but I would expect them to complain about it, and work in small ways to change it. Otherwise they're legitimate targets for criticism.
    Last edited by jere7my; 2013-04-09 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerlis View Post
    And what i was saying with the "white person" metaphor is the fact that when certain demographics that should be occasionally apparent are noticeably absent it seems very odd. Like (like my example), how a world where people who naturally have dark skin dont exist would be weird.
    Exactly. It's as if a hundred years of fantasy fiction went by without anyone mentioning clouds, and as soon as somebody put some white fluffy sky-things into their story everybody started looking for an ulterior motive.

  20. - Top - End - #470
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    This is about representing race in media, but I feel it's pretty useful for this thread as well.
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

    I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.
    Can't say I share their opinion. Seems a bit of an overreaction. I found the situation amusing, at least... honestly, anything can be used for comedy, and precluding one thing just makes me think you should ban it all. Someone is always going to get offended.
    Things to avoid:

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  22. - Top - End - #472
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    A reason which, in the end, only exists because people get it into their head that, say, gay characters need to be written 'differently', when no such difference exists.
    This is not universally held to be true among various under-represented groups, though. I have literally had conversations where friends belonging to such a group have said to me, "I wish they didn't write [under-represented group member] to act just like a [over-represented group member]." It wasn't about OOTS, but the sentiment still exists. Nobody is shy about telling the straight white guy that he will never, ever understand their point of view, no matter how hard he tries.

    In other words, whether or not such a difference actually exists, it is faulty to assume that everyone agrees on whether or not a difference exists—and that all the people who think that there is a fundamental difference are on the same side of the larger argument.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Someone is always going to get offended.
    Unfortunately, this sentiment is a straight line back to non-inclusion. It's too easy for an author to say, "Someone is always going to get offended, so no need to include black/gay/disabled people!" I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.
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  23. - Top - End - #473
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Two events that have likely shaped my history on this issue:

    1.) At one point in the past, I did a very short-lived comic for Wizards of the Coast called "Five Foot Steps." Unlike OOTS, it took place in the real world, among a group of D&D players. The cast consisted of two white men, two white females, a black man, and a brown-skinned man with non-specified ethnicity (who happened to also be in a wheelchair). Almost the exact same breakdown as the Order, if you happen to read V as female. Only one character, one of the white men, had any portion of their sexuality discussed during the comic's five-page run (and he was straight).

    The reaction, universally, was that the cast was ham-handedly diverse; that obviously, Wizards had forced me to include people of color and the differently-abled because they were a huge corporation and had to be politically correct. This was not true—they gave me no input whatsoever on the content of the strip. But the very existence of a group of D&D players with three races in it was enough to confuse people.

    That made me angry and annoyed, and I resolved to bring even greater racial balance to OOTS from that point on, just to prove the point. Unfortunately, I didn't have such a learning experience with LGBT inclusion. In fact, I had almost the opposite...


    2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

    I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.
    That makes sense. The one thing I wonder about is female characters. Not meaning to put you on the spot or anything, but is it easier to get into the head of a female character as opposed to a LGBT one? Or do you already find it more taxing to write Haley as opposed to, say Roy, and the extra weight of a gay character would just compound that? Or some other explanation I didn't think of? No pressure to respond, of course.
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This is not universally held to be true among various under-represented groups, though. I have literally had conversations where friends belonging to such a group have said to me, "I wish they didn't write [under-represented group member] to act just like a [over-represented group member]." It wasn't about OOTS, but the sentiment still exists. Nobody is shy about telling the straight white guy that he will never, ever understand their point of view, no matter how hard he tries.
    That's... odd.

    Unfortunately, this sentiment is a straight line back to non-inclusion. It's too easy for an author to say, "Someone is always going to get offended, so no need to include black/gay/disabled people!" I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.
    And then people get offended by the non-inclusion. Ah, Catch-22, how often you show up.

    Honestly, the best anyone can do is to write something that's as unoffensive as they can get without sacrificing the story, and hope for the best. Overthinking the significance of everything pleases nobody: people find something to take offence at, creators don't write anything... (somehow, this even manages to come up in forum roleplays )
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

    I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.
    Hmm, there is a bit of dispute whether or not stuff like drag and such is offensive to trans* people. I personally don't think so because gender expression and gender play, no matter how lighthearted it is is something personal.

    However, there's a few reasons for those iffy feelings. Society tends to confuse crossdressing and similar things with transgender folk, which often leads to dismissal of trangender people's identities and such. And there's often a bit of a risk of misogyny and transphobia coming from drag queens themselves. (Not all of them of course.) (I'm not that familiar with drag kings, so I'm not sure if it's true there as well.)

    So it's a bit of a mixed thing I guess. Iunno, you can see it from both sides. You could also argue that Roy's desire to undo the effects of the Belt is sympathetic to people who feel bodily dysphoria.
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  26. - Top - End - #476
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

    I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.
    Probably this person was not familiar with the source material and had suffered bigoted jokes like the ones Belkar makes Roy, so he could not see those strips under any one other light than that. I think the blame of that is not on you, but on the persons who made him feel like that in the first place.

    Then again the transsexual colective has had it pretty rough, and most of the society is unable to really understand them, gays and lesbians included. So maybe I am being unsensitive here?

    Mhm. I see how could this be troublesome for an author.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    That makes sense. The one thing I wonder about is female characters. Not meaning to put you on the spot or anything, but is it easier to get into the head of a female character as opposed to a LGBT one? Or do you already find it more taxing to write Haley as opposed to, say Roy, and the extra weight of a gay character would just compound that? Or some other explanation I didn't think of? No pressure to respond, of course.
    The truth is, I thought I had included female characters. Not in the initial group of six—I totally cop to having Smurfetted that one, even if V reads as female to you—but in the time since. I never crunched the numbers. I was under the impression—literally until this thread—that I had done a good job including female characters.

    Plus, what I knew was that the first significant major character that I introduced after the first 50 strips was Miko—a major, complex character who had a lot of energy devoted to her and was the first non-OOTS member to be featured on the cover of one of the books. And the reaction was that she was universally despised and people actively wished for her death.

    Then, when I had an opportunity, I decided to give one of my existing minor female characters more spotlight time. When Roy was dead, Celia came in to provide another female voice and prove that Haley wasn't speaking for all women. And the reaction was that she became universally despised and people actively wished for her death.

    So, yeah. It's not unreasonable for me to have concluded at that point that I was not cut out to write female characters beyond the most cursory surface treatment, other than Haley herself. And as we've seen on this thread, my portrayal of her has still gotten crap.
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  28. - Top - End - #478
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This is not universally held to be true among various under-represented groups, though. I have literally had conversations where friends belonging to such a group have said to me, "I wish they didn't write [under-represented group member] to act just like a [over-represented group member]." It wasn't about OOTS, but the sentiment still exists. Nobody is shy about telling the straight white guy that he will never, ever understand their point of view, no matter how hard he tries.

    In other words, whether or not such a difference actually exists, it is faulty to assume that everyone agrees on whether or not a difference exists—and that all the people who think that there is a fundamental difference are on the same side of the larger argument.
    It's a bit of a fine line to thread, because you don't want to risk tokenizing, but you also don't want to completely negate your character's identity.

    I think it's an argument for more diversity on a bigger scale though, because the more for example queer characters there are, the more canvas you have as it were to explore different angles, to explore characters for whom their struggles is a big part of their story contribution but also characters for whom it is a minor detail, and lack of diversity in media in general can lead to a bit of an overstretchedness by trying to represent all those different angles with only a few characters.

    -----

    Re; above. I think it's because minority characters tend to stick out more? Like, a character being straight for example tends to be seen as default so we don't attach as much mental space to that as a character being queer. Same with male vs. female characters.

    (Also a small note; I'm using queer as a (reclaimed) catch all for LGBTQ+ most of the time, but I'm aware that it can be a hurtful word for some, so I don't mind dropping it if it's hurting someone in this thread.)
    Last edited by Astrella; 2013-04-09 at 12:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    It's not as if your male characters don't become universally despised and have people actively wishing for their deaths. It's really a hit-and-miss thing. Just kind of unfortunate that you made both the lawful-to-the-point-of-insanity paladin and pacifist-in-totally-the-wrong-setting female.

    I don't think people have taken issue with your portrayal of Haley, per se, more whether she can be counted as leading the OotS (and... well, there's more to that then gender). Only reason it got so much attention is the lack of other female leaders to actually... well, talk about, beyond a hormonal teenaged sorcerer.

    Note: In case anyone thinks I'm being hypocritical, I never took issue with Haley's leadership ability, just whether she was actually leading the group. And I have no desire to reignite that discussion.
    Things to avoid:

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Unfortunately, this sentiment is a straight line back to non-inclusion. It's too easy for an author to say, "Someone is always going to get offended, so no need to include black/gay/disabled people!" I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.
    This last sentence made me laugh

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