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2012-10-24, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
If the elf is a devoute follower of that god he'd probably find himself changing alongside his deity. Why would an elf remained fixed in his morality over that time period but not a truly immortal outsider? Or at some point he'd realize his god is changing in a way he doesn't approve and leave the church.
Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2012-10-24 at 03:12 PM.
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2012-10-24, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-24, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
The first itterated prisoner's delima games theory experiment I know of tested a set of strategies against their payoff matrix and interaction rules and came to the conclusion that "cooperate first then Tit-for-Tat" was best.
It was then pointed out that it was fairly easy to PROVE mathematically that in fact "always defect" was the dominant strategy over the space of all strategies. The test designers hadn't included a bunch of possible strategies.
Strangely, the SAME REASERCHERS who'd thought the test was "good enough" when it gave "cooperate first then Tit-for-Tat" was best suddenly decided that their test rules weren't good enough when it was shown that those rules actually gave "always defect" as the clear best strategy.
You COULD do a really complicated games theory set-up. Limited and sometimes faulty information so you're not always sure who defected, interaction times semi-random, a real chance that a major betrayal would eliminate a side and thus eliminate any chance of direct reprisal, reputation rules and ways to spoof the reputation rules. But what's the point? If you actually included everything in the real world, you'd come out that any strategy observed in large numbers of living organisms is at least acceptably close to optimal (else it would not remain evolutionarily viable), and that includes LOTS of pure predators, LOTS of parasites, and for that matter a substantial number of things that look like altruism.
Such studies almost always tell you more about the experimenters than about reality.
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2012-10-24, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- a nice pond
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
My favorite of these experiments/contests (for most of the better ones, multiple academic teams submitted "programs", algorithms dictating behavior in an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma environment, which were then set loose together and randomly paired up for interactions X number of times):
One team submitted a bunch of different programs. The first few interactions in the algorithm were a sort of shibboleth to identify other programs from this team. Once such a program was identified, one program would take a fall for the other. One program was set up to always defect when it recognized a friendly program, the others were set up to always cooperate. (When they encountered a wild program, the fall guys would always defect, to minimize unaffiliated programs' ability to gain points. I think the intended winning program went tit-for-tat with wild programs, but I could be misremembering that.)
As one might expect, the fall guy programs did pretty badly, and the intended winning program did, in fact, win, doing even better than tit-for-tat. Which is to say: Thrallherd/leadership is the winningest strategy.
As one might expect, the number of programs that a single group could submit was limited in subsequent contests. (Which is to say: sensible DMs ban thrallherd/leadership.)
(Tit-for-tat always does well. Forgive-once-then-tit-for-tat does even better, because it doesn't get locked in a mutually-destructive hate spiral with defect-once-then-tit-for-tat and its ilk. The more forgiving tit-for-two-tats does even better in a field of not-particularly-aggressive contenders, but does worse in an aggressively predatory field. Always-defect only ever does well if the environment is imperfectly iterated, e.g. if programs can't remember past interactions.)
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2012-10-24, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
Not to mention the implicit assumption in all of this that Prisoner's Dilemma is actually the right payoff matrix for good versus evil...
I mean, the crew of a ship is also playing an iterated game, called 'lets get home to port.' The payoff matrix is zero, except for cooperate. The globally optimal strategy, the equilibrium, etc are all trivially 'cooperate'. The thing is, researchers don't like to work on trivial problems because other researchers read the paper and say 'thats trivial! it should not be published', so we hear a lot more about the problems where things are paradoxical or 'interesting' and get the idea that they represent the majority of real cases, when boringly trivial problems are actually quite common.
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2012-10-24, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
I'm sorry if this is addressed, but I have to comment. I've won 9 out of 10 Catan games because of the bandit. I make other players get into "wars" when they are both poised to obtain resources I try to monopolise. Why have everyone get an even playing field in a peaceful world, when I can manipulate that to my advantage?
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2012-10-24, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
I think the problem here is really about the issue of empathy. A Wise person understands how other people feel, they know the cost of their actions in terms of the suffering they inflict. But nothing says they have to care.
After all, if you value things based on an egoistic rather than an altruistic perspective then someone else experiencing pain or pleasure is only relevant in terms of how that effects their usefulness to you. A Wise and Evil person should be able to (intuitively or through experience) grasp that concept fairly easily.
Even if you think altruism is the intrinsically "correct" focus of morality, that opinion doesn't matter one bit to someone who disagrees. Hell, even someone who "knows" that altruistic benevolence is the morally optimal path can still value themselves more than other people and choose their own advancement over helping others, morality be damned.Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-10-24 at 07:31 PM.
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2012-10-24, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
My Works:
The Commoner Handbook
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2012-10-24, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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2012-10-24, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2012-10-24, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
The idea that the only connection between wisdom & moral/value theory is a propagandist push from religion is ridiculous.
You can find ancient writings that talk about morality in a manner consistent with how we may identify as a wise approach that is separated from any religious association.Last edited by Zonugal; 2012-10-24 at 10:12 PM.
My Works:
The Commoner Handbook
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2012-10-24, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
I was not implying "religious propoganda" I perhaps mis-worded it. Replace "religious" with "Philosophical" and the proper pluralisations. Many of the Philosophies that define wisdom to involve morality disagree extensively. The only agreed upon definition is the one that comes straight out of the dictionary.
Excerpt from wikipedia to clarify my stance on wisdom.
Wisdom is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgements and actions in keeping with this understanding. It often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that universal principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions. Wisdom is also the comprehension of what is true coupled with optimum judgment as to action. Synonyms include: sagacity, discernment, or insight.
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2012-10-24, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
I'm going to take my example from the hip band The Protomen!
SpoilerThe title character, Protoman, was a hero who sought to rescue mankind from the vile clutches of Dr. Wily's robot army. He realized that this was a futile action, as none of the humans joined him in the battle. Their reliance on him was identical to their original reliance on Dr. Wily. "They don't want to change this, they don't want a hero. They just want a Martyr, a statue to raise!"
He turned against them because they didn't want to be free as he had assumed. They wanted to be ruled over, their lives made simple by the control of others.
So he abandons them to their fate and joins Dr. Wily, making him evil. But he was capable of inferring the truth(as it is in the story), that they craved control and pretended to want freedom.
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2012-10-24, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
Naturally philosophers are going to disagree on such a vague, lucid idea like what constitutes wisdom (or being wise). Philosophers disagree & argue about nearly everything. But it isn't about everyone reaching a concise definition of wisdom (or how it connects with morality) but accepting that there is a connection between the two & that they both influence the other in some manner.
The idea that we should disregard looking to understand such a connection because there has been no agreement in the philosophical community seems rather confusing & lazy to me.
Our traditional approach to morality is rather loose but there are theories, systems and writing that structure morality/values/ethics in a much more concrete manner alleviating us from abandoning any inspection into morality out of an assumption of moral relativism being the prevalent adoption/assumption of morality.My Works:
The Commoner Handbook
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2012-10-24, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
I am not disregarding "a" connection, merely stating in terms of this discussion that it is irrelevant. Wisdom is defined in D&D as per the dictionary definition. Under that understanding it is perfectly possible for someone to be both Evil and Wise in both reality and your favorite campaign setting.
Our traditional approach to morality is rather loose but there are theories, systems and writing that structure morality/values/ethics in a much more concrete manner alleviating us from abandoning any inspection into morality out of an assumption of moral relativism being the prevalent adoption/assumption of morality.
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2012-10-24, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
Than it seems like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this prevalent topic.
And agree that Ra's al Ghul is a perfect model of a wise, evil character.My Works:
The Commoner Handbook
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2012-10-24, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
A difference of internalized values is what separates 'good' from 'evil,' and application of knowledge is what separates intelligence from wisdom. Therefore, if one has a different set of values than the common 'good,' but still applies their knowledge in a world-wise way, they may be viewed as simultaneously evil and wise.
As a grim example, say a cleric (since said class came into question earlier in the thread) comes upon the knowledge that a vile plague has infected a small village. He has designs upon the region, and knows that, should a plague outbreak ravage the land, his careful machinations will be thrown into disarray. So, to keep it from spreading, he kills every last resident of the village in the night. (Insert dramatic Sephiroth-walk scene here. :P) He has spared the country a plague outbreak, preserved the region, and, if he's clever, created a 'mysterious massacre' that he can manipulate to his wishes in neighboring towns. In this way, he has been both quite evil, and quite wise. It's simply wisdom based upon a different set of values than most folks.'
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2012-11-04, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
Just discovered a cute video about Ethics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkS6WpbLUFw
(It's from the viewpoint of Aliens observing human behaviour, very amusing.)Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
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2012-11-04, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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Re: RP: How can anyone be _Wise_ yet _Evil_?
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked for review.