Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

[Sunken Valley]

Alright, This is my theory on the Incredibles. Everyone knows I dislike this for one reason: I think Syndrome is the true hero. I think he is working for the government, not evil and a better person than mr Incredible. The next 3 posts will explain why.

PS: please inform me if you see any subtle political stuff. I have posted this elsewhere and I don't want the mods to get me due to an editing slip

[Sunken Valley]

Chapter 1: Syndrome the Government Consultant

Super-heroism is outlawed in the Incredibles universe because the property damage caused by their escapades results in numerous lawsuits and a bad public image. The government still harbours these superheroes, helping them maintain their civilian identities and cope with normal life. However, some supers do not approve. These powered beings chafe under the restrictions imposed by ordinary duties and wish for a chance to use their greatness. In the first 30 minutes of the film, Mr Incredible not only super-heroes in secret with his friend Frozone, but loses his temper with his boss, punching him through 5 walls (the latter blunder not only mind-wiped by government agents but implied to have happened before, with the end result being Mr Incredible and his family re-located). Mr Incredible was a reasonably sane individual as a hero. Other supers have a lesser grip on sanity. This is where Syndrome comes in.

To explain why Syndrome is useful to the government I must mention what his “evil” plan is. Syndrome has no super-powers, unless you count his vast intellect as one. He has used his inventive mind to become a weapons designer granting him a vast fortune. As a result, he is a bit cocky and could be considered a “prick”. You know who else that description matches? Iron Man. Yes, Syndrome is just like Iron Man: a maverick government consultant who operates on his own agenda, but an agenda inevitably on the government side. His greatest invention is the Omnidroid, a killer robot which he commands. Syndrome lures supers to his private island one by one with the help of his secretary Mirage, an attractive woman who offers the supers a chance to use their powers and costumes again. Whilst there they are asked to fight the “out of control” Omnidroid and try to stop it. In this gambit Syndrome is in a win-win situation. He fully intends to kill the super involved with the Omnidroid, so if they die, mission accomplished. If per chance they succeed, he asks them back and then builds a new more powerful Omnidroid specifically to kill them. Syndrome is shown to have done this to 15 super powered beings (with Mr Incredible intended as the 16th and final target). The next step of his plan is to launch a giant Omnidroid right into a city and then defeat it himself using gadgets to make himself into a superhero. This will then inspire a new age of powerless superheroes that use gadgets to fight crime, either ones they made or ones from Syndrome’s company.

Although Mirages’ line to Mr Incredible that both of them are “off the grid” (aka protected by the government) are a telling hint Syndrome’s actions are fully evidenced in the film as endorsed by the government by one gaping plot hole. Every super in the film has a government handler to check up on them and support them. Mr Incredible has one and both his wife and Frozone are mentioned as having their own. This implies that the 15 supers Syndrome killed had handlers as well. In this case, why was Mr Incredible never informed by the government that his life may be in danger and that supers are missing? Some of the disappearances are reported by the newspapers but Mr Incredible is never informed of them by his handler. The government are not stupid in this film, they would have noticed that 15 supers are missing, some of whom with connections to each other. Therefore, they knew Syndrome was doing it but kept quiet. Supers presumably cost a large amount of money to support and relocate and they may also be dangerous and crazy. If the government killed supers themselves, the scandal would be tremendous. So the government outsources the problem to a private organisation who will accept the job for little to no pay (highly likely, given the advanced technology Syndrome’s weapons possess has made him a billionaire). If anything, it is likely the government owes Syndrome for weapons and is paying him off by letting him kill supers (as mentioned later on, Syndrome has a grudge against super powered individuals).

Syndrome’s methods of doing so are also more dignifying to supers than dying of old age, suicide or snapping and becoming a villain (which, given Mr Incredible’s circumstances, is more than possible). In Wagner's Ring the greatest honour was dying in battle as only then could one go to Valhalla, the greatest heaven. For a superhero it would be infinitely better to die in action than live a life where they could not do the jobs their powers gave them. Take for instance Syndrome’s first target: Universal Man. Universal Man does not have a secret identity. He did not see the point of having one as fighting crime was what he did. His NSA fact-file on the 2-disc DVD recommends that he be kept busy. A ban on Superheroes would be a death sentence to him. When killed by the Omnidroid, Universal Man can now say that he died the way he lived: a superhero.

Furthermore, being killed by Syndrome is more dignifying to the families of the supers. Every superhero who comes to Syndrome’s island comes of their own free will. They are also paid handsomely for their services. Mr Incredible was able to use the money he was paid to defeat the Omnidroid to buy not only a car which did not break under his super strength, but was also enough to lie to his wife about being fired earlier in the film. The cash strapped government clearly did not give the supers any of these things. Syndrome did and he hates supers. Upon the hero’s eventual fall at the hands of the Omnidroid, this money makes a great pension for the bereaved families of the supers. This saves the government money, and further highlights Syndrome as a philanthropist. Syndrome’s end goal of making a new age of powerless gadget super-heroes is also beneficial to the government, as the members presented in the film expressed a desire for a return to the days of superheroes. Gadgets allow this by making superheroes more a part of public life than the distant idols they were. It also makes them more controllable by the government as gadgets can be destroyed, unlike superpowers. Finally, Mirage defects to Mr Incredible’s side and according to The Incredibles comic book is now working for the government. Given that Mirage only sides with Mr Incredible after the rest of his family breach the island and her pardoning for being accomplice to Syndrome this may have been a hasty government cover-up. As to the question of why a government would support sending a 50 foot killer robot into its own city, it would not. Syndrome did that on his own initiative. However, this is not an evil action.

[Sunken Valley]

Chapter 2: Syndrome the Well Intentioned

Syndrome has regularly been described by critics, commentators and wiki-editors as a complete monster who repeatedly crosses the moral event horizon. The critic Confused Matthew refers to Syndrome as “so evil and sadistic that it was unpleasant just to watch him on screen”. Admittedly Syndrome does taunt Mr Incredible and his family regularly but the rest of his actions are not evil. Many of them are not “good” by the usual standard but all are well-intentioned and after all, there is no one way to do the right thing. Some are positively good, stripping Syndrome’s actions of the evil everyone else believes he has.

Syndrome’s first “evil action” in the film would be the murder of the 15 supers killed by his Omnidroid. Although I have mentioned that all of them went on the island of their own free-will, all died in dignity and all received a lot of money that was not the only reason. The real reason is that almost every one of those “Super-heroes” was dangerous to society. Syndrome was doing a medal worthy service by getting rid of them. The 2-disc DVD has fact files for 12 of those 15. I have already mentioned Universal Man and his lack of secret identity. Now I will mention the rest:

• Psycwave. Power: Mind Control. This alone is dangerous. Mind control can really mess up the world. Too deadly to fall into the wrong hands.
• Everseer. Powers: Clairvoyance, Telepathy and Magni-Vision. A mind reader who can observe from a distance and see the future. This is dangerous to the government as he would know supers were being killed. Plus, he was a paranoid germophobe. Certainly the type to believe in conspiracies.
• Macroburst. Power: Wind Control. This androgynous person was the kid side-kick of Everseer. He/She would likely have been inducted from an early age in Everseer’s conspiracy theories. He may also have been in contact with Everseer.
• Phylange. Power: Sound Manipulation. Phylange’s file describes him as selfish and not very popular amongst his peers. This sounds bittered.
• Blazestone. Power: Fire. She was a reformed villain. Her file recommends that she be under supervision. Supervision which would likely be costly.
• Downburst. Power: Matter Creation. The husband of Blazestone. He worked for the government even after the ban to find a way to use his powers to mass produce manufactured products. This could be dangerous if Blazestone managed to convince him to turn to evil.
• Hypershock. Power: Seismic Waves. His file also asks for supervision as he has a bad temper. Earthquakes controlled by a bad-tempered person? Risk.
• Apogee. Power: Gravity Control. This is a lethal power but Apogee sounds on her interview like a nice person. People do change over time though.
• Blitzerman, Tradewind, Vectress. They don’t have files on the DVD. This may mean they were “un-personed” because they were evil.
• Stormicide. Power: Gale Force Bursts. Looked after a sick Uncle. Depending on the circumstances of his inevitable death, this may have bittered her against the world.
• Gazerbeam. Power: Laser Eyes. He was a defence attorney who campaigned to remove the ban on super-heroes. Not only would he have noticed the disappearances, but the government would not want the ban to be overturned with dangerous supers like:
• Gamma Jack. Power: Radiation. A megalomaniac, who could disintegrate at 100 metres, was only in the super-hero business for the ladies and believed that supers were a “superior race”.
• Mr Incredible. Power: Super Strength. Punched his boss through five walls and was recently fired from work. A time bomb waiting to go off.
Nearly everyone on this list was dangerous. This would also explain why when Mr Incredible hacked Syndrome’s computer, his wife Elastigirl and Frozone were not on his records despite Syndrome clearly knowing about them. They had not shown any clear signs of violent behaviour.

Syndrome’s second “evil action” was being a weapons designer. Despite the negative connotations this profession possesses it is an important job. People need weapons so a weapons designer provides a valuable service to society. It is not a job to be vilified.

Syndrome’s third “evil action” was to torture Mr Incredible. Mr Incredible had sent a distress signal before his capture. As Syndrome knew Mr Incredible had hero contacts (hero contacts who could not be dissuaded by the government) he was trying to gain information as to which one it was. Jack Bauer interrogates people all the time, using much more dangerous methods than electrocution (Syndrome’s weapon of choice) on much weaker men. It is not wrong to torture for information.

Syndrome’s fourth “evil action” was to send missiles to blow up a plane with both Elastigirl and both her and Mr Incredible’s two eldest children, Violet and Dash. This is believed to be Syndrome’s most evil act, mainly because he did not stop when told that there were children on the plane and he gloated at Mr Incredible upon realising they were people he cared about. However, not only is it not evil to gloat, Syndrome did not “know” there were children on board. He was only told, he did not hear Violet or Dash. He only heard Elastigirl saying there were children aboard. It might have been a lie. He is also completely entitled to blow up Elastigirl. Syndrome lives on a private island. Elastigirl was trespassing on his land. As his island is not under any countries trespass laws, Syndrome is entitled to do what he wants. Elastigirl was clearly affiliated with her husband therefore dangerous. Furthermore, Violet and Dash were not supposed to be on the plane. They were supposed to be in school. At ages 10 and 14 it’s their own fault if they get caught in a dangerous mission. Plus, they skipped school! A truly heinous crime.

Syndrome’s fifth “evil action” was to not care about Mirage. After the plane blows up, Mr Incredible grabs Mirage and threatens to kill her if Syndrome doesn’t release him. Syndrome calls his bluff and even though Mr Incredible has nothing to lose, he can’t do it. Syndrome taunts him on this, calling him weak. This event sours Mirage’s opinion of Syndrome. But Syndrome was actually showing great wisdom by knowing his opponent. He would have intervened if Mirage was in real danger. But she wasn’t. He made a calculated risk and it paid off. Plus, Mr Incredible was the one making death threats (disrespectful).

Syndrome’s sixth “evil action” was to send his giant Omnidroid to attack a city. This was not supported by the government, but it was a good action. Syndrome’s eventual plan of creating the new generation of supers was a good idea. However, for a major change in world views to occur, a great event must happen to change everyone’s mind, to show everyone that supers are needed. By sending a giant killer robot, impervious to the army and the police, the need for supers is shown. This would also spread peace in the world as people would be too worried about giant robots to fight (Syndrome sent the robot in a rocket which he sent into space first). This plan is in many ways similar to that of Ozymandias from Watchmen. Ozymandias planned to teleport a mutant squid he created into Times Square. This mutant squid would send a psychic wave across New York, killing thousands of people, including the squid. This would unite the world against a common enemy (aliens) and stop all wars (including the cold war). In a way Syndrome is doing this by preventing the threat of Supers rebelling and empowering the common man to be greater.

Syndrome’s seventh and final “evil action” was to attempt to kidnap Mr Incredible’s youngest child, baby Jack-Jack and raise him as his own son. This would in the long run have benefitted Jack-Jack. The Incredibles are clearly a dysfunctional family. Mr Incredible punched his boss through 5 walls and at the end of the film does not appear to have got a new job, Dash uses his super-speed to play pranks at school, which his father supports (in a selfish attempt to live through his child), Violet is shy and uses her invisibility to stalk boys and Elastigirl is unable to control her family and prevent them from starting a fight at the dinner table. What kind of lessons would these people be teaching Jack-Jack? Undoubtedly he would be surrounded by bad role-models. This is made worse by the reason why Syndrome failed in his kidnapping: Jack-Jack’s shape-shifting powers allowed him to best Syndrome. As seen from the short film Jack-Jack Attack Jack-Jack shape-shifting is so powerful it allows him to access numerous other powers (including flight, super strength, fire, invulnerability and phasing). This immense power and the inability to use it under the ban would likely have driven Jack-Jack violent and given him a superiority complex in later life. Furthermore, Syndrome was able to get to Jack-Jack because the baby sitter the child’s family left him with gave Jack-Jack flat out to the weapons designer due to her fear of the baby’s powers. Any family who would leave their boy in the hands of such a clueless person are obviously irresponsible. This tradition is continued by the end of the film’s implication that baby Jack-Jack superheroes with his family. One should not have a baby super hero no matter how powerful. It’s dangerous. In such a scenario, a child would be taken into care. This is what Syndrome was doing, he was again helping the government deal with their super problem by being super-social care. Syndrome would have also made a good father. When we see him in the process of kidnapping Jack-Jack he is feeding the babe milk and filling a box with his toys. Is this really the actions of a maniac? Syndrome is also rich. Jack-Jack would have lived a life of luxury with his new father. Syndrome would have spent a lot of time with his son. It is implied that Syndrome was ignored as a child by his parents. He would have done the opposite to any children he had. He would also have been nice to Jack-Jack given that he appears a pleasant person to his henchmen and Mirage. Only when taunting Mr Incredible is he unpleasant. Furthermore, Syndrome told Mr Incredible how he intended to train Jack-Jack as a super. This would prevent Jack-Jack from being a lazy playboy like many heirs and heiresses and allow him to harness and control his powers. This would give him a better experience in the long run.

Syndrome’s actions can now no longer be seen as evil. They were always for the good of society and never truly for any darker purpose than self-defence or helping others. But so does this lead into Syndrome being a benevolent force? Chapter 3 will reveal all.

[Sunken Valley]

Chapter 3: Syndrome: Empowering the Common Man

To start looking at what makes Syndrome heroic it is first important to examine his back-story. As a child, Syndrome was a big fan of Mr Incredible before the ban to the extent that he tried to sneak into the latter’s superhero missions under the guise of “Incrediboy”. When I was younger I approved of this decision as I was of the age where I supported such vigilantism. Now I do not. Being a child sidekick is dangerous, irresponsible and could get you killed at an age too early to fully experience life or have a successful career afterwards. Plus, it is implied in the film that Incrediboy had pestered Mr Incredible many times before. Mr Incredible was, dare I say, right to have turned him down. However, he did so very badly. He did not use the argument I did. He told Buddy to go away because “he worked alone” which is very rude. He obviously knew it was wrong as he later apologised to Syndrome for being rude (the sincerity of his apology is doubtful at best as Syndrome had the Omnidroid’s blades to his neck). In fact, since Mr Incredible does work with other heroes during the film (including the flashback) it is highly likely that Mr Incredible would have let Incrediboy join him if not for his lack of powers. Mr Incredibles rejection turned Incrediboy/Syndrome against supers. For you see, this is the key difference between Syndrome and Mr Incredible that makes Syndrome a better role model: ambition. Syndrome knows he does not have powers and he has the dream of being a super hero (a good dream if you start at adult). He also knows he can’t be a superhero due to the ban. So instead he becomes a supervillain/weapons designer. Syndrome knew as a child that he was a good inventor (as Incrediboy he had Rocket-boots he made himself. As a child). He followed these talents to their natural conclusion and designed weapons. Not only that, his weapons are revolutionary. To date no one has made rocket boots, flying saucers, killer robots and zero point energy (an energy that levitates and immobilises anything inside it.). Syndrome managed to rise to the top and reach a position to create his utopia. Mr Incredible has no ambition. After the ban he could not be a superhero but he could have used his super strength to be a police man, fire man or builder. He becomes an insurance salesmen, a job that not only does not need his strength but is the opposite to helping people (to the extent that Mr Incredible loses the company money by giving his clients advice to how to navigate the system and punches his boss through 5 walls due to frustration with the little man’s lack of empathy). He instead has to do his superheroing against the law and in secret. This is not a positive role model. This is a wreck who lives in a broken family and is unable to follow his dreams even though he could easily. Whereas Syndrome was a disadvantaged child who rose to the top and became successful. Furthermore, according to Brad Bird (Incredibles creator) Syndrome gained his name because he is antisocial as in “antisocial behaviour syndrome”. Do you know who else had that? Ludwig van Beethoven, Winston Churchill and Steve Jobs. All inspirational people. Syndrome can now join them as a pioneer of weapons design and give his message to the world.

Speaking of message, I will now go on to mention the film’s flawed and warped moral. Whilst The Incredibles has an obvious message on the importance of family, this was a co-incidence and not, according to Brad Bird, the film’s intended message. The true message of the film is that some people are naturally better than others and that these people are being suppressed and held back by society. Now this message has a ring of truth, but it is not only not very family friendly it is also un-democratic. Society is there to represent the interests of the majority whilst making sure that every minority is happy. The idea of people being better than others is discrimination and a philosophy that leads to genocide. This is further warped when the better people are superhuman beings who can control minds and disintegrate people on a whim. These people aren’t rulers, they’re threats which no one can handle and create a brutal caste system. This is not a positive message. Syndrome on the other hand advocates a positive message. Syndrome wants to create a new era of super-heroes who are ordinary people relying on gadgets to catch criminals, just like people such as Ironman or Batman. This is expressed mainly by the infamous quote “When everyone’s Super no one will be.”. This is not a negative message. It represents a technological utopia where people not only have a better quality of life, but they are also equal, which makes them more diverse and removes discrimination. As the first gadget- based super, Syndrome is an inspirational citizen leader, inspiring others to follow his path. I have previously mentioned Syndrome’s similarity to Ozymandias and his message of world peace. However, what I did not mention is that his plan worked. World peace was brought about by the mass deaths of New York City. The protagonists of the graphic novel all agree that the plan was a good idea after all and promise not to tell anyone that Ozymandias was responsible, letting him get away scot free. His plan had a positive result and rightly so. Syndrome unfortunately doesn’t get this. Although he is the first costumed vigilante on the scene of the attack, he drops his remote for the robot before he can finish destroying it and gets knocked out, recovering shortly after the robot is destroyed. How is it destroyed? When the Incredibles get on the scene, it overwhelms them and is only defeated when Mr Incredible finds the remote and finishes what Syndrome started. I see this as unfair. Without Syndrome, the robot could not be stopped and all he did was drop his remote. Does that mean he does not deserve credit for stopping the robot just because he is clumsy? Just because he does not have powers? This is blatant discrimination and disrespect. Powered people stole Syndrome’s plan and didn’t give Syndrome any credit. I think Syndrome deserved a second chance due to his positive message as opposed to the warped one of the supers. But this was not the worst thing to happen to Syndrome.

A subject of The Incredibles that is close to my heart is the matter of Syndrome’s death. After his failed attempt to kidnap Jack-Jack, Syndrome gets into his private jet, swearing vengeance on the Incredibles. As he does so, Mr Incredible picks up his car (a car Syndrome bought for him) and throws it straight at Syndrome (a glaring lack of respect). This causes the jet to explode, killing Syndrome in the process. The movie tries to make Syndrome look like he killed himself by having him thrown into his jet engine and still alive, but getting his cape caught in the engine (the film had previously discussed how capes were the cause of numerous super deaths due to them catching on things) and him being dragged into the engine by his cape screaming. However, given that he would not be in the jet engine if not for Mr Incredible throwing the car, that the plane would have exploded anyway (it did not explode because Syndrome’s corpse got stuck in the engine, planes are designed to prevent that) and that Syndrome’s rocket boots were broken by Jack-Jack, Mr Incredible murdered Syndrome. There are several problems with him doing this. The first is that it was pointless. The government had already said that they had frozen Syndrome’s assets and were waiting to arrest him when he came back to his island. Mr Incredible knew this and had no reason to doubt it (I have already shown that I do). Syndrome certainly did not know about this. Therefore, it was pointless to kill Syndrome as he would have been arrested anyway. Even if the Incredibles wanted to capture Syndrome themselves, Violet could have incapacitated him with one of her force fields. There was no need to kill him. Another problem with killing Syndrome is the unwritten law. This law is that superheroes should not kill. This is because if they kill they are not heroic as they have killed in cold blood, making them at best vigilantes who take the law into their own hands and at worse villains themselves. To prevent this super heroes should show they are “super” by not killing. Those who do kill are merely anti-heroes. Syndrome understood this, that is why not only did he refer to himself as a villain (giving him the ability to kill if he wanted) but he did not kill anyone personally. He merely used his paralysing beam to incapacitate his foes. He had every opportunity to kill the Incredibles but he did not. Mr Incredible did not need to kill Syndrome but he did. This makes Syndrome the better man. The final reason why it was wrong to kill Syndrome is because it makes Mr Incredible a jerk. As previously mentioned, Syndrome had taunted Mr Incredible on how not killing makes him weak. This is false. Not killing someone you don’t like (especially when you can do so and the other person tried to kill your family) takes a great amount of will power. By not killing Syndrome, Mr Incredible could have shown him that not killing makes you stronger than one who kills to get what they want. It could have been a poignant moment and changed my opinion of both costumed persons. Instead, Mr Incredible was weak and gave into his urge to kill. This ultimately makes him a weaker man who cannot resist his primal impulses instead of a true hero. As a result, he is less of a hero than Syndrome.


In conclusion, Syndrome may not have been the best of people. Certainly he did many actions which could be labelled evil. However, his message was a good one. He wanted a utopia of equality and diversity and in my opinion, this goal is greater than the selfish goal of the protagonists of re-consolidating their power base. But at the end of the day, if The Incredibles can be interpreted in so many different ways on so many different levels, then that must mean it’s a pretty good film.

[Mauve Shirt]

IIRC, Mr. Incredible didn't kill Syndrome, he was sucked into a jet by his cape.

[Whiffet]

Could you edit those so they're easier to read please? All I see are three giant walls of text. Hitting "enter" twice between each paragraph alone would make a huge difference.

[Scowling Dragon]

Are you kidding me!

People that saved hundreds of lives from villains that where then locked away because jerks took advantage of suing stuff. Collateral damage caused by them saving people that would be dead otherwise!

Then a guy comes in and MURDERS them. A WEAPONS dealer. So who knows how many people are dead because of his ultra lazers that he sold off alone.

Off the grid? The island was just hidden!

The murder being OK? Are you serious! A guy that takes sadistic pleasure in both torturing a man and killing his wife and children?

[GloatingSwine]

He wanted a utopia of equality and diversity and in my opinion, this goal is greater than the selfish goal of the protagonists of re-consolidating their power base.

No, not really.

What he wanted was to play with the world like a toy, to be the only one who was special, and when he was bored of that, when he'd "had his fun", he would render the whole concept meaningless so that no-one would ever rise above his new mediocrity.

He was also pretty much a grade A psychopath, he didn't view others as people, but as objects for his use.

Think back to why Mirage betrays him. When Mr. Incredible was threatening her life, Syndrome simply doesn't care if she dies. She's not a person to him, if she had to die just to make Mr. Incredible cross that line and so hurt him just a little bit more, so be it. That's indicative of his wider outlook, he doesn't care who suffers to make him look good in his plan to unleash then stop the Omnidroid, they're little people.

So no. Syndrome isn't the real hero, and in order to try to claim that he is you basically have to ignore his character and everything he does in the movie.

[GloatingSwine]

{{scrubbed}}

[Lord Magtok]

It is not wrong to torture for information.

Many would disagree.

[Forum Explorer]

While that was pretty thought out it was also painful to read. Please edit it and create some paragraph breaks.


Now your argument against the superheroes basically is that you can't trust these people with these powers and thus they should be killed. Either due to possible emotional issues or the power in question is too powerful.

These people didn't choose to have powers. Either a lucky accident or birth gifted them with these powers. They could have done as Syndrome did and used it for personal power and wealth. Instead they decided to help anyone who needed it without question or thinking about the consequences.

Syndrome didn't need to kill anyone. His inventions already put him on par with a group of four superheroes. He could have given them away freely and ended the supposed 'menace' right there. Instead he lured them in and killed them. In the end he didn't give away his technology at all. He used it to place himself above the rest and to eliminate his rivals. Then he would sell his inventions so that other rich people could also be superheroes.

The use of torture is wrong. It's always wrong. Only in the most dire of circumstances would it even being considered as an option would be acceptable.

[Kitten Champion]

He's essentially Lex Luthor, I suppose if you're Ayn Rand or something you could find him praiseworthy.

[Ravens_cry]

Many would disagree.

I would agree with your statement.
Yes, Mr. Incredible could potentially have handled things better with Buddy "Incredi-boy", but that does not justify Syndrome murdering multiple people to try and get back at a man who tried to protect him when he was a child and who in fact saved his life, attempting to murder Mr. Incredible's family or trying to kidnap his youngest child
In the end, Buddy was still a selfish, angry little boy.
His motives might be sympathetic, but his actions?
No, Syndrome is no hero.

[Maxios]

The only thing I got out of your essay is this: We can say prick on these forums?

[Sunken Valley]

Edited for paragraphs!

I'll tangle with you all later. I notice that certain segments are mentioned about more than others. Interesting. Also, whoever does a point-by-point analysis of the whole thing will be rewarded.

Finally, I'd like to point out that I'm not a psycho, nor do I support real-life or other fictional psychos. Just Syndrome. And mostly because he died. Maybe someone else if I watch more films.

And yes, I do support later comic-book interpretations of Lex Luthor. Mostly the non-crazy ones where he's a billionaire threatened by something dangerous that no-one understands.

[Tavar]

So, essentially, your argument is that because the character/person in question died, he's a hero? That an incredibly weak argument, if that is the case.

[SoC175]

Syndrome on the other hand advocates a positive message. Syndrome wants to create a new era of super-heroes who are ordinary people relying on gadgets to catch criminals, just like people such as Ironman or Batman. This is expressed mainly by the infamous quote “When everyone’s Super no one will be.”. This is not a negative message. It represents a technological utopia where people not only have a better quality of life, but they are also equal, which makes them more diverse and removes discrimination. As the first gadget- based super, Syndrome is an inspirational citizen leader, inspiring others to follow his path.

Except that this is total rubbish. Syndrome explicitly states that this is not his goal, not even by a long stretch

He doesn't want to inspire, he just wants to be the only one who "can control minds and disintegrate people on a whim". He wants a ruling caste to be created with him as it's only member.

Syndrome’s actions can now no longer be seen as evil.

They can.

They were always for the good of society

They were not

and never truly for any darker purpose than self-defence or helping others.

They were only ever intended for a darker purpose and never to help anyone other than himself.

But so does this lead into Syndrome being a benevolent force?

No

And then once he's too old to enjoy it anymore he wants to arm the whole world and have a last laugh watching the world blasting itself back into stone age.

[Aotrs Commander]

From what you're saying, Sunken, what I'm getting is you think that anyone with super-powers - even when dealing with someone who just IS more moral than the general morass of humanity (i.e. Superman) - is inherently a dangerous and/or an untrustworthy threat, but are apparently willing to trust that mundane humans with super-power-emulating technology are not going to abuse the priviledge.

Because I really can't see that ending well. Humanity as a whole is simply not ready for that kind of power - and personally, I have my doubts as to whether it could ever be.

[Fiery Diamond]

...

What.

...

Surely you're not serious. Surely you're being facetious.

...

There are a few things you said that make me think this is all a big long complicated joke, such as you calling skipping school a heinous crime. It's possible that was simply your attempt to inject humor into your presentation of something which was otherwise meant to be taken at face value, though.

Let me just say I hope you're kidding, and not an unconscionable monster.

I will treat you as if you're serious, though, as I respond.

RESPONSE TO "CHAPTER ONE"

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That's a fairly amusing theory. It's self-consistent and not particularly hard to fathom, assuming one takes the viewpoint that the government is full of soulless monsters, which is not out of the question. So far, the final sentence is the only part I can call shenanigans on completely. As far as conspiracy theories go (which is precisely what this is, just about a fictional world rather than the real one) this is relatively straightforward and believable. It's still utterly ridiculous.

RESPONSE TO "CHAPTER TWO"

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Point by point...

Evil Act 1: You acknowledged it as murder. So far, so evil. Then you proceed to list the supers killed with your own reasons why eliminating them could be seen as a good thing. Some of the reasons given are fairly reasonable (i.e. Psycwave, Hypershock, and Gamma Jack) while most of the rest are completely ludicrous or "they might find out supers are getting murdered! Let's murder them too!", which is clearly an EVIL reason to kill someone.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil, despite one or three people being possibly better off gone. Syndrome Status so far: Mass Murderer.

Evil Act 2: Is Syndrome supplying others with his weapons? What others is he supplying? If he is selling them to the government, then this is not necessarily a bad thing (of course, if your crazy conspiracy were true, then it would still be a bad thing, just because helping such a government be able to obliterate others is a bad thing). Selling them to terrorists? Significantly bad. Keeping them for himself? Depends on how he uses them. How's he using them? Oh, right, to kill people.

Verdict: Evil Act not confirmed as evil due to lack of information; however, this act makes him far more dangerous than any of the other supers were - so if they should be eliminated, so should he. Syndrome Status so far: Mass Murderer, armed and dangerous.

Evil Act 3: No need to elaborate. Your statement of torture not being wrong is false.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil. Syndrome Status: Sadistic Mass Murderer, armed and dangerous.

Evil Act 4: Your entire line of reasoning is fallacious and laughable. He willingly opened fire on an unarmed plane bearing a non-hostile adult and two underage children. He had no reason to disbelieve that he had killed Mr. Incredible's family and he gloated about it. "I'm not bound by law so I can murder trespassers" is not a valid moral argument.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil. Syndrome Status: Unconscionable Sadistic Mass Murderer, armed and dangerous.

Evil Act 5: Given what we know of Syndrome so far, we have no reason to believe your claim that he would have intervened but for that he was calling Mr. I's bluff. We have every reason to believe he simply didn't care if she died.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil. Syndrome Status: Socio/Psychopathic Unconscionable Sadistic Mass Murderer, armed and dangerous... you know what? I'm just going to shorten this to "Complete Monster."

Evil Act 6: Your allusions to other stories are irrelevant, since they hinge on me agreeing with you about them, which I don't. Letting a giant killer robot loose in a crowded city so you can grandstand is at the very least completely irresponsible to the point of monstrous. His eventual goal to be achieved is, contrary to what you posit, completely beside the point.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil. Syndrome Status: Complete Monster.

Evil Act 7: Kidnapping is bad.

Verdict: Evil Act confirmed as evil. Syndrome Status: Complete Monster.

Conclusion: Your conclusion is ludicrous.

RESPONSE TO "CHAPTER THREE"

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Do you really think "empowering the common man" makes all the evil committed okay? That's a disturbing view. Besides, some people ARE superior to others, even in the real world. Not value-wise, but capability-wise.

Syndrome deserved that suffering death. Mr. Incredible was completely justified in killing him.

I can't believe I just wasted 45 minutes on this response when I still think you were just playing out an elaborate fishing for responses.

[Scowling Dragon]

If you want I will go into more detail:

First off lets establish that the heroes are freaking awesome. I would trust them with my entire Bank account.

What does Mr Incredible and Freeze do in their spare time? Going around rescuing people. They consider their duty of Saving people so important to them that they spend their free time saving people (Even though they have no glory). How awesome of people are they? Its like a guy gifted with insane wealth going around spending every penny creating orphanages and when he is prevented from making orphanages he sneaks out wearing a black mask and hunted by the police building orphanages at midnight.

Although they liked glory, this proves that they considered their powers a privilege (That they will not rest using to aid you) and the the freaking shining examples of humanity.

Two: Giving everybody superpowers is not such a great idea. I am perfectly comfortable with Mr "I will spend my free time saving you from a fire and the very act of preventing me from saving people like you makes me mad" having them exclusively. I would vote the man for President.

Three: So dying in a bed as an old person an next to your children (Who have their own children by now) is worse then dying by the hands of a homicidal robot (Again People who are Paragons of Virtue. They could be rulers of the world but they PROVED to be heroes) ? And my family knows nothing about it? The idea disgusts me. Its like saying killing me right now is justified because I die young.

Four: They come by their own free will yes, but its like saying that If I was stabbed in an alleyway it was my own free-will that got me there.

Five: Iron man went around saving people. He did not use his powers do stage a robot to make himself out a hero whilst killing the saints of humanity.

Six: I counter your government theory with mine. They knew about the occurrences but kept it secret from the other supers because they didn't wan't them getting fishy.


To your second part:

The movie established how totally awesome the heroes where. Sure they could be dangerous, but who would I trust more? Paragons of humanity? Or Syndrome?

But Il review your other text chunks later.

[Dr.Epic]

Chapter 1: Syndrome the Government Consultant

Where is this ever stated? He said he was an arms dealer. It was never stated he sold weapons to the US military.

Chapter 2: Syndrome the Well Intentioned

Yeah, tracking down old supers - innocent people who helped save the world countless times - tracking them down to kill them, then launching a giant robot to possible kill people so he could be a hero is really well intentioned. Give this man a medal.

Chapter 3: Syndrome: Empowering the Common Man

So? You say that like it's a positive. If he's supposed to represent the common man, he's villain and caused the deaths of many innocent people. Magneto empowered mutant kind, but given all the destruction he did, at the end of the day, good mutants don't want to be associated with him. And as the common man, I don't want to be associated with Syndrome. Not to mention, a superhuman intellect doesn't make him such a common man.

In conclusion, Syndrome may not have been the best of people. Certainly he did many actions which could be labelled evil. However, his message was a good one. He wanted a utopia of equality and diversity and in my opinion, this goal is greater than the selfish goal of the protagonists of re-consolidating their power base. But at the end of the day, if The Incredibles can be interpreted in so many different ways on so many different levels, then that must mean it’s a pretty good film.

The message was be proud of you strengths. I'm sure you're talented in one or more subjects and you should be proud of that as opposed to not being recognized for you greatness. We wouldn't be where we are today with all our technological advances and great works of art without such people who were better than others.

[Ravens_cry]

If he really wanted to help humanity, he could have used his technology skills to do so. Perhaps not as a hero, those were banned, but by creating better technology for all? If done right, that could indeed be considered noble.
But he didn't do that.
Instead, he was obsessed on some petty, and murderous, revenge plot against superheroes in general and Mr. Incredible in particular.

[Tavar]

Don't forget attacking the city in an attempt to stage a heroic rescue. An attack that pretty explicitly killed people.

[Rake21]

I'd like to point out that the people he murdered on the island (and yes, tricking people into battleing your giant kill-bots until they die is murder) were all super-heroes, people who saved lives every day. You make some pretty big jumps in logic to try and justify their death, too.

A reformed supervillian? Obviously dangerous.

A clairvoyant and their sidkick? Clearly deranged conspiracy nuts.

Superhero who's kind of a jerk? He's going to be tossing death rays from a clock tower.

You also noted that Frozone and Elasta-girl weren't in Syndrome's data-base. They were. He had a file on each of them. He even knew who Frozone was and probably would have gone after him next if he hadn't found a much more personal target, Mr. Incredible.

Later, he hears children screaming in terror as they, presumably for him, fall to their death. And then he gloats about it. It being attempted child murder.

Also, he hires mercs who clearly have no qualms about child murder.

Then there comes the point where he drops a building size death machine in the middle of Washington D.C. where it blows up a bunch of buildings and tanks, likely killling doznes of civillians and soldiers in the process. All so he could pretend to be the hero... which he goes on to fail at.

Finally, after being showed up, he kidnaps a baby. Not for the kids betterment, but because he wants to hurt the Incredibles. And then he gets himself killed.

Syndrome=**** who hates kids



Good villain, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Am I the only one reminded of this?
Rather harsh I know, but Syndrome isn't a hero.
He could have been, but he lost that opportunity a long time ago.
Partly through Mr. Incredible's actions, but mostly his own.

[Forum Explorer]

Reward eh?


Well lets start off with Syndrome being a government consultant.

He wasn't. While he may have sold weapons to the government there is no evidence that he is in anyway supported by them. In fact there is evidence to the contrary as they shut him down as soon as he does something illegal.

The old superheroes on the other hand were. They were funded by the government, protected by them, and when they were sued, the government payed the cost.

If Syndrome was working for the government he would know where Elastigirl was instead of it being unknown.

Dying in battle being dignified is debatable but definatly not universal. Mr. Incredible didn't want to fight, he wanted to help people. The same attitude likely exists in many of the other heroes. In a way dying when you think you are helping protect the world when you aren't is a cruel lie.

As for the families well, Mr. Incredible didn't get paid until he defeated the first death bot. For those who failed initially, to their families they just disappeared.

The government not warning the supers points to one of two things. One they respected the privacy of the superheroes and only intervened when requested or needed. Two they didn't care/liked the supers dying. Either way it doesn't legitimize Syndrome's actions.

I think I covered why killing the supers was wrong but lets go over in more detail

Psycwave: He was a hero. He already has this power and didn't abuse it. Killing someone for the potential to cause harm is wrong and paranoid.

Everseer: Well that depends on the government's involvement. If the government is ordering the murder of it's civilians then Everseer is a threat. Otherwise Everseer would likely warn the other supers. He's a big threat to Syndrome but not to the government.

Macroburst: You have no evidence of Everseer believing in consipricy theories. Even if you did that doesn't mean Macroburst believes them as well. Even if Macroburst did that doesn't mean believing in conspiracy theories is worth a death sentence. If he/she was in contact with Everseer that would be a threat to Syndrome. Not to the government or world at large.

Phylange: Being bitter doesn't mean you should die. Saying he's bitter is an assumption in of itself

Blazestone: Costly isn't a justification for murder. If you killed your child/grandparent because you couldn't afford to take care of them you would go to jail, and be considered a monster by nearly everyone.

Downburst: Blazestone likely became good because of Downburst. Considering how much it seems that he wants to help it's severely unlikely that the reverse would happen instead.

Hypershock: Good point, but the same point can be said to owning any sort of weapon. Until they actually break the law no action can be taken against them. Outright murdering them is wrong.


Blitzerman, Tradewind, Vectress: Seriously what? They were murdered so thus they were evil? That is not an argument at all. That's just insane. Or if you meant the details weren't provided thus they were evil, well that still wrong. It just means the details weren't provided.

Stormicide: It's a truth of this world that we all eventually lose someone. Nearly everyone is capable of handling that loss without becoming bitter towards the world. Assuming that she would become bitter due to this is a horrible assumption. Killing her under that assumption is evil.

Gazerbeam: Wanted to do what Syndrome and Mr. Incredible wanted anyways. Furthermore he was doing so in a legal manner. Really it seems you want to paint the entire government as the villains of the movie instead of just Syndrome. He was a threat to Syndrome which is likely why he managed to warn Mr. Incredible post-humorously

Gamma Jack: Finally a legitimate threat to normal humans. Still while he warranted watching, (which he wasn't being) killing him outright is wrong until he actually crosses the line.

Mr. Incredible: He spent his free time saving people from burning buildings. Perhaps the government should have given him a job doing something productive and useful instead of hiding him in literally the worst possible position he would be more mentally balanced in the first place.

Frozone was in the records and Elastigirl was known to be with Mr. Incredible by the government. You've only proven that Syndrome's murderous spree was not being supported by the government.

Being a weapon designer/dealer is not wrong in of itself no. Fair enough

Torture is always wrong. Jack is an extremist who is willing to take any step in order to protect people. Even he thinks it's wrong, just justified.

There is a difference between illegal and wrong. In fact possessing those missiles at all was likely illegal in the first place. Depends on which country the island is part of. Plus it was a civilian plane without any weapons. Murdering innocents is always wrong no matter what the circumstance.

Not really evil but definatly showing how little he values human lives. He flat out claims that mercy is a weakness. If he had great wisdom he would have made a show of saying that Mirage wasn't in any real danger so she wouldn't feel betrayed. Or taken her aside afterwards and asked if she was alright.

Good in the long run is not a good argument for a kidnapping. At all. And it likely isn't true anyways. If Syndrome had succeeded Jack-Jack likely would have been killed when he exhibited his powers. If not killed he would have been raised with an inferiority complex thinking that he was a freak. For that matter all families are dysfunctional to a degree. At the end of the movie we see the Incredibles becoming better people by overcoming their issues.

Those are all government positions. It's implied that the government actually places the heroes in different jobs and thus chose the position of insurance salesman. Furthermore those positions are public and would reveal Mr. Incredible to the world. Really just brings him back to where he was before the ban which the government did not want.

Yes famous people can overcome disorders to do great things. People can also fail to overcome their disorder and end up doing horrible things. This point just proves that having this disorder did not make Syndrome a villain in of itself.

It's possible to get that message but only if you use a twisted viewing glass. Look at Frozone. He had a happy normal life but was willing to be a superhero anyways at the first sign of danger. These 'threats' risked their lives so that others could live. They never tried to force their beliefs or rule others. In fact they would stop those who did. When the majority asked them to step down they did, if reluctantly. None of them refused to step down at all and continued acting as a vigilante.

I covered this but if Syndrome had released his products openly that would be true. Instead he wanted to be the only super for a good long time. Then as a final kick in the teeth to whatever supers may still be alive he would make everyone super. He had no noble purpose behind him, only bitterness and vengeance.

Syndrome underestimated his own creation and nearly caused his own death along with hundreds of thousands of others. Yes he should be blamed for that. If he hadn't been such a showboat it wouldn't have happened at all. The Incredibles didn't know about the plan at all and had to piece it together on the fly. Doing so they managed to defeat the robot using a method that Syndrome would not have been able to do. They do deserve the full credit for that victory alongside Frozone.

First you say superheroes should not kill, but due to their potential to kill they should all be killed. Seriously that sounds like trolling. Did Mr. Incredible kill Syndrome? Pretty much yeah. Was Syndrome a serious threat regardless? Yeah. He could have easily rebuilt his wealth elsewhere in the world by selling his ideas. Failing that he still possessed technology strong enough to defeat all of the Incredibles. Was Mr. Incredible acting in self-defense? Yes. Was it right? No.

Syndrome wanted to taunt and torture the Incredibles. He in fact does try and kill them many times throughout the movie. Your own arguments cannot be applied to him. It's only because he thought it would be more painful for them to steal their child away that he let them live at all.


So what's my reward?

[Kd7sov]

Nearly everyone on this list was dangerous.

And? I am not aware of anyone who isn't dangerous under the right circumstances. Such as being in charge of a 1500-kg chunk of metal that can easily travel at speeds above 160 kph. Also known as a typical car.

Abilities don't make people dangerous, not by themselves. Intentions, creativity, carelessness, can all make people dangerous. Actual intentions, mind you, not "she was just the type to be a conspiracy theorist" or "his death could have embittered her against the world".

[Rake21]

And yes, I do support later comic-book interpretations of Lex Luthor. Mostly the non-crazy ones where he's a billionaire threatened by something dangerous that no-one understands.

But... but those are the same character. The crocked billionaire who focuses his entire fortune toward killing a superhero he's jelous of is the same guy who faked an alien invasion that killed thousands so he could become president. The same guy who gave thousands of people superpowers, only to take them all away at the exact same, killing most of them, in order to hurt a man he thought was Superman.

Your right about one thing, Luthor doesn't understand the man in blue. But Lex doesn't hate Superman because he thinks he's dangerous. He hates Superman because, with all his power, the Man of Steel selflessly helps everyone he can. And Luthor, so corrupt, can't grasp that concept.

[Tavar]

Well, he often does think Superman is dangerous. The issue is that his view is so warped that it's really not a good starting point. There are people who thought killing based on race was a good thing. Doesn't mean we should be learning morals from them.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, he often does think Superman is dangerous. The issue is that his view is so warped that it's really not a good starting point. There are people who thought killing based on race was a good thing. Doesn't mean we should be learning morals from them.

What makes Superman scary is he has, at best, only a human level resistance to magic. Any two-bit mage could make a being who is practically a physical god dance to their tune.
Sure, he's probably will power out of it eventually, but at what cost?
I'm not saying it justifies a proactive strike by any means, but it does justify seeking ways to neutralize the threat if it appears.