Vampire question settled?

[Keltest]

Setting aside the issue of why it would be something only Hel can do, that Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and so on can't do. Setting aside the fact that a question I asked of Loreweaver is now an argument between Zimmer and Keltest.

Who said anything about "undead"? The claim was specifically that it wasn't part of vampirism; anyone advocating that claim needs to explain what exactly the abilities and limitations of this extremely-hypothetical brain parasite are (and then explain why believing in the brain parasite makes more sense than believing in the possession model of vampirism).

Hel has dominion over dead dwarves. Not live dwarves, just dead ones.

[jere7my]

So youre now suggesting that not only does he have the shaman's memories, he has his personality too? So... besides being composed of negative energy, how is there a possessing spirit in this scenario at all?

I have been stating from the beginning that absorbing all of someone's memories could result in a merged entity, yes: someone who thinks of themselves as the being they absorbed, plus. This is depicted time and time again in fiction.

unless youre talking about this comic I cant find the scene youre thinking of. And if you are talking about that one, obviously they aren't done there yet. They haven't found the gate at that point.

That is indeed what I was talking about. My only point was that they were not about to turn around and head home; there was more to do. There was and is no way to know how long those tasks would have taken.

possibly, but Durkon immediately know that it was the sun burning him, and both he and Malack were able to survive for a little while in the sunlight. Long enough for Durkon to go "Oh crap, sun!" and turn around, at least.

I take it you don't have children? A child won't run into a fire (probably), but a parent still wants their child to obey them, for their own safety. A "parent" who's an evil sociopath might consider mental domination a fine answer to that dilemma.

Again, the fact that it could have inspired him doesn't mean that it is a reliable or relevant source for what happens.

But it does offer a counterexample to the argument that no possessing vamp-demon would ever refer to its pre-vamped self in the first person. It demonstrates that that is indeed one common way of portraying vampires. You reacted with incredulity to the fact that "not only does he have the shaman's memories, he has his personality too"—if that's a common way of depicting vampires, why is it so hard for you to accept that that's how it's being done here?

That doesn't even make sense. Durkon is, for all intents and purposes, not there for the purposes of conversation. Plus, up to that point, she WAS talking to the dark spirit specifically, since we can see Durkon having no say -at all- about what is happening. he cant even taunt futilely at Hel.

Who mentioned Durkon? Hel's dialogue demonstrates that she draws no distinction between the vampire and her dark spirit, as you are trying to do.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What's in parentheses is the point of the post, because it's wrong.

Under the Hel's Hand theory, Durkon is a vampire.

Just like Malack.

It's vampirization!

It's the same thing!

The only difference is that Durkon has a puppeteer parasite in his brain!

So, are you arguing that being turned into a Vampire is purely a physical change in OOTS? Because Durkon doesn't seem to have had any mental changes. This also raises the question of what it is about undead that allows Hel to put her parasites into them, and only into dwarves. In the other hypothesis, it is assumed the god of death gets control of the vampire of the race they lead. However, here I see no reason why Hel gets dwarves.

[Keltest]

So, are you arguing that being turned into a Vampire is purely a physical change in OOTS? Because Durkon doesn't seem to have had any mental changes. This also raises the question of what it is about undead that allows Hel to put her parasites into them, and only into dwarves. In the other hypothesis, it is assumed the god of death gets control of the vampire of the race they lead. However, here I see no reason why Hel gets dwarves.

The parasite camp has two sub-camps. One of which is that being evil is not some magical compulsion that happens, but simply a result of prolonged periods of having to kill people every week to eat, as well as being shunned and hated. The other theory is that since Durkon's spirit is not in the driver's seat, he isn't being affected by the negative energy powering his body.

as for Hel getting dwarves, its not like the whole idea that dwarves who get sick and die have a special hell isn't pretty arbitrary in the first place.

[SavageWombat]

I'm seeing some difficulties here with the mind-soul dichotomy that so often trips up philosophers.

We clearly know that souls exist in OotS - we've seen them. So the issue is not whether the mind also has a separate soul - it's whether the soul has a separate mind.

I would say that (opinion only) Durkon has one mind, but two souls. The evil soul, born in Hel's halls just like a newborn dwarf's soul comes from Thor's or wherever, is in control and commands Durkon's mind. He can cast spells, after all. He can reason and speak. But the thing he doesn't have access to is memory - and when the memories are fully absorbed, the two souls will fuse like there was only ever one.

The vampiric spirit doesn't to be a special memory-absorbing monster - it's a soul, albeit a neg-E soul equivalent. It only seems to be a fully realized individual because Durkon is/was.

[zimmerwald1915]

The vampiric spirit doesn't to be a special memory-absorbing monster - it's a soul, albeit a neg-E soul equivalent. It only seems to be a fully realized individual because Durkon is/was.

I'm not sure the vampire-spirit can be a special memory-absorbing monster. If it were, it would be represented by a monster statblock, not by a template, and it could be encountered independently of the host.

[Everyl]

Hel has dominion over dead dwarves. Not live dwarves, just dead ones.

Then why has there never been any mention of the dwarves' strong cultural taboo against resurrection? After all, if even the most noble warrior's death can result in infection by an evil spiritual brain-parasite, then one would think that the dwarves would be quite against the idea of resurrection.

[Keltest]

Then why has there never been any mention of the dwarves' strong cultural taboo against resurrection? After all, if even the most noble warrior's death can result in infection by an evil spiritual brain-parasite, then one would think that the dwarves would be quite against the idea of resurrection.

well a resurrected dwarf isn't dead, now are they.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The parasite camp has two sub-camps. One of which is that being evil is not some magical compulsion that happens, but simply a result of prolonged periods of having to kill people every week to eat, as well as being shunned and hated. The other theory is that since Durkon's spirit is not in the driver's seat, he isn't being affected by the negative energy powering his body.

as for Hel getting dwarves, its not like the whole idea that dwarves who get sick and die have a special hell isn't pretty arbitrary in the first place.

Option A still holds that it vampirization is purely a physical change, as the alignment change is something that happens over time. Option B seems to say that being animated by Negative Energy makes you evil, but only if you're in control of your body, which does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

Hel getting the dishonored dead is less arbitrary than Hel being able to implant parasites into Dwarven undead who died any kind of death.

[Keltest]

Option A still holds that it vampirization is purely a physical change, as the alignment change is something that happens over time. Option B seems to say that being animated by Negative Energy makes you evil, but only if you're in control of your body, which does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

Hel getting the dishonored dead is less arbitrary than Hel being able to implant parasites into Dwarven undead who died any kind of death.

There comes a point where you have to throw your hands in the air and say "its magic, alright?!". Rich can be as arbitrary (or not) as he wants to be.

[zimmerwald1915]

There comes a point where you have to throw your hands in the air and say "its magic, alright?!". Rich can be as arbitrary (or not) as he wants to be.

Even so, the point remains. If evil gods in general can hijack vampirization, then situations like Durkon's should be more common. But they don't seem to be. If Hel can hijack undead in general, then situations like Durkon's should be more common (and she ought to have been interested in Xykon, a Northern human). But they don't seem to be. If Durkon's situation is an anomaly or exception to how things generally work, there ought to be an explanation for what allowed it. But there doesn't seem to be a limiting principle to any of the proffered exceptions, which means they should not be exceptions, but the rule.

"It's magic!" works to explain away mechanical unknowns with how a magical process works the way it does. It does not work to handwave away the logical consequences of a process working the way it does.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There comes a point where you have to throw your hands in the air and say "its magic, alright?!". Rich can be as arbitrary (or not) as he wants to be.

That's not exactly a convincing argument in favor of your theory.

[Keltest]

Even so, the point remains. If evil gods in general can hijack vampirization, then situations like Durkon's should be more common. But they don't seem to be. If Hel can hijack undead in general, then situations like Durkon's should be more common (and she ought to have been interested in Xykon, a Northern human). But they don't seem to be. If Durkon's situation is an anomaly or exception to how things generally work, there ought to be an explanation for what allowed it. But there doesn't seem to be a limiting principle to any of the proffered exceptions, which means they should not be exceptions, but the rule.

"It's magic!" works to explain away mechanical unknowns with how a magical process works the way it does. It does not work to handwave away the logical consequences of a process working the way it does.

How do we know it doesn't happen more often? The comic focuses on the Order of the Stick, which means that we only see the things they interact with for the most part. In a world where D&D mechanics rule, there are going to be at least 2 or 3 attempted apocalypses in a given week. And presumably omnipotent deities aren't going to limit themselves to one single plan to achieve their goals if they can avoid doing so.

[Kish]

Erm, why should this be a problem? The discussion has more or less resolved into being between factions rather than between individuals, as open, public discussions are wont to do. If one wants to keep a discussion private, one can always resort to PMs.

I don't mind any number of answers to my question from Keltest or other random posters. I do mind a number of answers to my question from the person I addressed it to, when that number is 0. Ah well, life is full of disappointments.

[zimmerwald1915]

How do we know it doesn't happen more often? The comic focuses on the Order of the Stick, which means that we only see the things they interact with for the most part. In a world where D&D mechanics rule, there are going to be at least 2 or 3 attempted apocalypses in a given week.

Well, there you go, you've answered your own question. The story of the Order of the Stick has run the geographical and cultural gamut, and corpse-piloting negative energy spirits seem to be a very small minority of both beings in general and undead in particular. They're so much the exception that Durkon's vampire-spirit seems to think that the living will suspect it of being such. As you put it, if it was easy for evil gods to put negative-energy spirits into corpses, they should be doing it all the time, and they should have overrun the world or taken over the story by their attempt to do so. If it was easy for Hel to put negative-energy spirits into corpses, she should be doing it all the time, and they should have overrun the world or taken over the story by their attempt to do so. But that hasn't happened.

[Falbrogna]

Barely two, three, who can count?

What I would want, to even consider your theory plausible, is a plausible reason for Rich to throw two methods of vampirization at Durkon

Oh, for the love of... Did all that talk about "vampires" and "parasite" completely go over your head?

Ah, right, the inconsistencies you won't tell me about. What inconsistencies can't be explained by a dark spirit absorbing Malack's memories and identifying with him? Specifically, with quotes from the text?

And yet again, you keep saying that things you don't remember or didn't notice doesn't exist.
Everyone pointed out the inconsistencies of Malack's in the first two or three pages of this thread, stop insisting that "they keep not telling me!" when you're merely not seeing them.

What's in parentheses is the point of the post, because it's wrong.

Under the Hel's Hand theory, Durkon is a vampire.

Just like Malack.

It's vampirization!

It's the same thing!

The only difference is that Durkon has a puppeteer parasite in his brain!

Thanks for existing.

If "having a puppeteer parasite in [one's] brain" doesn't require vampirism, I have to wonder why any of the Order do not have puppeteer parasites in their brains, since apparently it's an evil god's I-Win button.

Or does it require dying and coming back? Assuming for the sake of argument that no member of the Order has died off-panel, that leaves "why doesn't Roy?" He sort-of worships the Northern gods, meaning Hel is part of the pantheon he falls under, so it wouldn't even be a different evil god.

Because "dwarves fall under her purview".
Simple.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Because "dwarves fall under her purview".
Simple.

Why though? In the other theory, Dwarves fall under her purview because the god of death for each pantheon is the one who gets the vampire, and since Dwarves worship the Northern Gods, Hel gets the dwarves. Here, I don't see any reason why that would be. Yes, Hel does get those who dies in a dishonorable fashion, but Durkon dies fighting.

[Falbrogna]

Why though? In the other theory, Dwarves fall under her purview because the god of death for each pantheon is the one who gets the vampire, and since Dwarves worship the Northern Gods, Hel gets the dwarves. Here, I don't see any reason why that would be. Yes, Hel does get those who dies in a dishonorable fashion, but Durkon dies fighting.

I don't see anything preposterous in a sneaky god like Hel concocting something like this to slip under Thor's thumbs.
"So we get to fight over dead dwarves, but what about their corpses? What if, unknown to Thor, I could plant some sleeper agents in free-willed or apparently mindless undeads? That moron will never see it coming."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't see anything preposterous in a sneaky god like Hel concocting something like this to slip under Thor's thumbs.
"So we get to fight over dead dwarves, but what about their corpses? What if, unknown to Thor, I could plant some sleeper agents in free-willed or apparently mindless undeads? That moron will never see it coming."

Then, why only Dwarves? Clearly, she can break the rules, why not try to possess Malack as well? And, why can she do this, but not Nergal or Ereshkagal.

[Keltest]

Then, why only Dwarves? Clearly, she can break the rules, why not try to possess Malack as well? And, why can she do this, but not Nergal or Ereshkagal.

you already asked that question.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

you already asked that question.

And I haven't received a satisfactory answer.

[Falbrogna]

Then, why only Dwarves? Clearly, she can break the rules, why not try to possess Malack as well? And, why can she do this, but not Nergal or Ereshkagal.

And I haven't received a satisfactory answer.

What else do you need other than "she's a death deity specifically addressed to managing dwarves afterlives"?

[Keltest]

And I haven't received a satisfactory answer.

Because Hel is the Dwarven god of death. not the Northern god of death. She only gets to keep the souls of dwarves who died of disease, but she is still a death goddess.

Yes, its arbitrary. But its been established as that arbitrary in comic, so its not like were stretching ourselves trying to make conditions that fit.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are you kidding me? What else do you need other than "she's a death deity specifically addressed to managing dwarves afterlives"?

One that explains why she gets to manage Durkon's that doesn't ask me to believe she only breaks the rules for Dwarven vampires.

However, I see that this has become a matter of what I personally believe to be more likely, so I don't think I'll be continuing this particular conversation until we get more evidence.

[Falbrogna]

One that explains why she gets to manage Durkon's that doesn't ask me to believe she only breaks the rules for Dwarven vampires.

A Dwarven God of Death circumventing rules regarding Dwarven deaths (not "only dwarven vampires"), I honestly don't see what's so hard to believe.

[The Giant]

There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's. Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.

Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.

Nothing that happens with vampires in this comic can be extrapolated to work similarly with other undead. All types of undead work differently, that's why they are different types in the first place. Xykon is still Xykon.

All of Malack's dialogue regarding who he is/was should be viewed through the lens of me not wanting to spoil the scene from #946. Some of what he says is metaphorical and all of it is deliberately ambiguous, because I was consciously trying to make you think one thing while another thing was actually true. As a rule of thumb, it is not in my interest to lock down the metaphysics of things if I don't have to, so don't expect that I will have characters exposition How Things Work just to clear up your confusion.

Likewise, any assumptions that characters in the comic know or understand the details of how this process occurs on a detailed internal level should be thrown out the window. They don't. Being a vampire is super-rare; being returned to life after being a vampire so you can share the logistics of how it worked from your point of view in such a way that it entered a general body of knowledge that people would have learned about in the course of their education is simply not something that has ever occurred.

I'm sure there are more byzantine arguments going around that I'm missing, but really, this isn't as complicated as most of you are making it. There is only one way that vampirization works, and it overrides the natural order of things, including where souls go. That's why everyone says things like, "That's against the natural order of things!" about it. However, Hel is not breaking the rules of vampirization itself at all.

[Falbrogna]

So it is as I always feared, instead of Malack's "rise from humble origins to unholy undead power" it was "died as a commoner, evil spirit got the body".
Damn.

Edit\ I forgot: thanks for clarifying this up, despite being a bit of a letdown to me.

[factotum]

Well, Word of God has spoken...I'm a little disappointed that this *is* how vampirisation works in the Stickverse, but there's little point arguing along those lines because it works how it works and it won't change now.

[Keltest]

Thank you for explaining that Giant. Now if youll excuse me, im going to go pout in the corner until the next comic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, there's the answer. Now, we have an answer to the OP. Can we move on now?