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Thread: Transhumanism
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2017-08-03, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
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2017-08-07, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
What Druid91 said is similar to how I feel when thinking about Transhumanism. But I have to admit that I find very difficult to blindly "embrace" practically any philosophy, even when I "mostly agree" with them; because I still haven't found a single one that I don't object on a couple crucial points. Which (I think) is what happens with me and transhumanism.
I sincerely think we Humans have already drastically changed from what we originally were, and most of the changes have been thanks to technological and cultural advances. I am also highly skeptic about the real implications of what is usually called the "Singularity". Most people think it will jeopardize some fundamental aspects of our understanding of reality; while I think it will be as groundbreaking as the discovery of the rational method, or the invention of the engine. Meaning, it would take us some 20-50 years to catch on and truly grok it; then we will continue with the same old petty ambitions and pointless lives.SpoilerIf anything, the encounter of a space faring civilization would qualify as "groundbreaking" in my personal scale
But more importantly, I don't believe we have reached the pinnacle of what a Human is capable of. I think we still have too much potential and that our culture is still in a child state. We don't need to become "more than Human" to improve, we still have a looooong way in front of us (I give it at least a couple millennia, until our colonies on other planets begin to truly diverge from "Earthling Humanity" and consider each one a subspecies). In any case, I'd rather stay "human" (for now) and improve (current) humanity as a species than waste my time and effort trying to accomplish a goal that is at least ontologically dubious.
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2017-08-09, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-10, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
I personally believe it's the only way forward and am looking for the day when said moving forward becomes both advanced enough and available to me to be worthwhile.
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2017-08-10, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
There are no pinnacles of societies of any sorts. There is entropy, and because of that natural selection, and because of that there is evolution, of all species, humanity, whether we like it or not, amongst the rest. There is no end of evolution, until there is an end of entropy, and entropy ending at the end of the universe is only a maybe.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-14, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
the point of transhumanism is to control evolution, not really sure how entropy factors into it.
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2017-08-14, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Controlling evolution's not all of it. Cybernetics and nootropics are part of it too IIRC
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-08-15, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
That's just silly. No offence intended, but evolution is what happens when a feature interacts with its environment. Some features thrive, some fail, and that's natural selection, controlling which features fail just isn't logically possible, you can control a limited environment, but that environment can fail compared to the wider universe, and if it does it will take all those adapted exclusively to it with it when it goes.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-15, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-15, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
They suit their environment, there are problems with hip displasia for example that would be eliminated in wild populations, but the dogs in question are so successful with humans that the pain isn't the handicap it would be in the wild. It's still evolution if we do it, it's just artificial, natural selection has been recognised since the 19th century, but selective breeding was known to the ancient romans.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-15, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
...Right, meaning that we can shape evolution to suit our needs just fine? Heck, we're getting to the point where we can skip the breeding process and start just changing the bits we want directly. I'm not saying I hold track with the idea that we'll become something beyond human, but "That's (controlling evolution) just silly."? As you point out, we've been doing it for thousands of years. Is it really so silly to imagine that directed at humans?
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2017-08-15, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
We can do all sorts of things, probably; centaurs, most of the other mythic monsters (full sized pegasii or dragons would be too heavy to fly on Earth), but once they're made, they will evolve from there onward, and they will never stop evolving. In my view if you can't stop evolution, you're not in control of it, and we can never stop it, short of killing everything, which would be a bad thing.
Last edited by halfeye; 2017-08-15 at 12:46 PM.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-15, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
So your argument is that we can't truly control something if we can't stop it? I think that's quibbling over language while missing the point. I mean, by this argument we don't control electricity either, as electromagnetic interactions are a fundamental property of nature that can't be stopped unless we destroy everything (which would be a bad thing). But we can still use the stuff to have this long distance communication via a carefully organised series of electric circuits turning on or off, so it seems like we have plenty of "control" anyway.
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2017-08-15, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-16, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
What are you talking about? Of course we can stop it. We only have to stop sex-based reproduction and replace it with a method that doesn't allow random mutations to happen.
And it would be a stupid idea. Stopping evolution is pointless when we're already capable of changing the world too fast for it to keep up.Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
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Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2017-08-16, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Well, plus there's the whole evolution of things like language and culture which amounts changing to suit one's environment without the crude method of resorting to the modification of genetics.
Those things happen, and you can't control them. It's the filthy masses which direct the flow of that ongoing cesspool.
Also, in regards to control. We can't stop lightning. But we can have some limited impact upon where it strikes.I write a horror blog in my spare time.
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2017-08-16, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Perhaps I phrased that poorly, control isn't really the best word, and evolution isn't going to stop anytime soon. That said I think people's differing ideas on what perfection is would keep enough variety to prevent any major problems, and that there are some traits that are near universally desirable like increased strength, intelligence, etc.
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2017-08-16, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
It would be a stupid idea, but there need only be differences between individuals for natural selection to act, and once that's acting, selection of a reproduction method that does allow change will follow, eventually (could be billions of years, but there's time for that).
Stopping evolution is pointless when we're already capable of changing the world too fast for it to keep up.The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-16, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
I think the point being argued is that we can go "I think people should be able to have extendo-arms" or something and being able to go in and build that, as oppose to breeding people over long periods of time. Do you disagree with that, or with calling that "controlling evolution?"
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2017-08-16, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-16, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Stop it? I'm also talking about outpacing it by several orders of magnitude. Natural selection can requires hundreds (if not thousands, or millions) of generations to produce results.
Right now, global warming is heating the planet faster than any macro-organism specie I know of can evolve to adapt to the rise in temperature.Last edited by Cazero; 2017-08-16 at 12:43 PM.
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
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Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2017-08-16, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Now, that is either silly... or a poor example. If the environment is the one changing, that doesn't mean we need to adapt to it by means of evolution (artificial or not). Humans have been adapting ourselves to drastic environmental changes by changing not our genes but our customs/technology. Which are easier to modify and adapt than any biological organism will ever be. It's easier for us to change our customs or develop new technologies that solve/prevent GW scenarios; than it is to redesign the species in order to fit a potential "new" environment.
In any case, we are still on the point where a successful "entirely artificial" species isn't even plausible on paper; because of the many variables you would have to be juggling to avoid creating new problems for the species or the environment. GMO's are a success because the genetic meddling is minimal compared to what we do when we breed entirely new "races" of X. The more traits you are meddling with, the more undesirable results may occur. Dogs aren't a successful species, and we clearly haven't been doing a very good job with them either. Just take a look at any chihuahua. TAKE A LOOK
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2017-08-16, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-08-16, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Any form of iterated replication will lead to some kind of evolution. Von Neuman Probes would undergo evolution. You can't stop all mutations because that would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics (though with an enormous expenditure of energy on double checking I suppose you could reduce them effectively to zero
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-08-17, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
I agree. A human body to which some changes are made remains a human body. With additional changes. Just as with anything else. You can't change something's fundamental nature. All changes you can do to anything are already inherent in the nature of said thing.
Considering that humans are the only species that's able to even think about such a thing, it is especially ridiculous to claim that by doing things that only humans can do, humans can change themselves into something that's not human. If the human species evolves to something different, it'll still be called human. Unless the word evolves independently.
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2017-08-17, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-08-18, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Right, so Captain Hook was a transhumanist. And I definitely am, since my laser eye surgery.
Seriously, this is a silly category. We've had "enhanced humans" since forever, and outside a few regrettable fringe cases, we've come to the consensus that they're humans. Calling them anything else is just asking for a world of hurt. X-Men is not a social blueprint we should aspire to."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2017-08-18, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
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2017-08-18, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
Eh, depends. Once data is digital, it can, at least in theory, live forever, and serve as a permanent save/restore. So, you make some oddball thing, but if you've mapped the genome, and have a consistent process to turn that into a living thing(we currently often rely on incubation with living animals, so at present, it's not fully reproducible in an identical fashion), you can just create the same thing, whenever, evolution be damned.
This mostly isn't important anyways. As others have said, evolution is a fairly slow process. It works on time scales that *start* at the generational, and increase exponentially from there. Generation to generation drift is usually pretty low, and genetically, you're not so very different from your parents. Or from other humans on the opposite side of the world you've never met. Digitally created/altered content can potentially change MUCH faster.
If I want fireflies that glow in different colors for a project, I can, given enough tech, just print the whole swarm of them. I don't need to care about how they evolve at all. If I want more in the future, I'll just print more. Who cares if the end product is ideally adapted to the environment if I have no intention to breed them?
*shrug* We transplant chunks of DNA pretty freely between plants, animals, insects, etc now.
What, exactly, is a human body anyways? How much DNA do I have to reuse to count as that, and does it matter what else I splice it with? And what *is* human DNA anyways? Great amounts of what currently are in our DNA originated with various viruses and what not. Possibly some bits were transplanted into us from other things by viruses. We're kind of just a grab bag of random parts.
We're currently sticking human DNA in plants to make those plants create human-usable substances. http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/16/sc...ed=all&mcubz=1
Are they human? Eh, a little bit. But really, who cares? They're useful.
Nah. Dogs are now dogs, and not wolves. Chimpanzees are still Chimps, and not Humans.
Progress is rarely a single linear path. We can become whatever, and it will probably not be unified and standardized.
If you wanna know what counts as "people", well, we may need a better standard than "human" one day.
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2017-08-18, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Transhumanism
I don't disagree with your point, but I just want to be a pedant and say... no, not really. Entropy exists. You'll always have copy errors, data will always spontaneously degrade over time, electrons will occasionally switch positions for no discernible reason, and so forth.
You need really good error-handling systems and redundant backups is what I'm saying.