Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Cheesegear]

I used to be on Dakka Dakka a lot during that time and we all came to the realization that most of the Codexes were Tier 1 (super competetive and Tournament topping) or Tier 2 (solid, could maybe get into a high rank via a bit of luck or unorthodox strategy) with like... 3 being Tier 3 (Chaos, Deldar, and Orks). Eldar were Tier 0 and of course needed a nerf.

QFT.
But, in [current year] all's people can remember about 7th is dual Wraithknights, Battle Companies with +500 Points, and the War Convocation.

If you removed those things from 7th Ed., was 7th good? Yes.

7th was a goddamn mess that only Marines and Eldar enjoyed (oh look I'm seeing a pattern here) because they practically auto-won every game.

You're right. I definitely wasn't having fun with my Necrons. AdMech Skitarii & Cult Mechanicus weren't fun at all. Grey Knights were miserable. Deathwatch wasn't ****ing awesome. Khorne Daemonkin never came out and dunked on nerds. Genestealer Cults weren't cool. Oh wait, remember when Sisters of Silence came out and dunked on Eldar players? The good old T'au Riptide Wing never existed. Remember Farsight bombs? **** yeah.

But you're right though. I played a Battle Company in tournaments, so my opinion is invalid. Math checks out.

There's a reason everyone was cheering when 8th was announced.

Yeah. Because the Gathering Storm garbage effectively wrote "Build your army however you want."

I like how everyone remembers Battle Companies, but nobody remembers Coteaz's Castellans.

The ancient ones from whom the height of the game was 5th Edition

As I said, I think the height of the game was 3.5th and the majority of 4th. That was truly when Hobby Was King. If you wanted to do a thing, GW probably had rules for it, and it was probably viable. 5th Ed. changed all of that with Matt Ward, and pretty much 'Play your army how we tell you to play your army.' Which forced certain Factions into certain builds. Some of which were better at the game's win conditions than others (i.e; Survive 'til the end of the game). Since 5th Ed. was all Eternal War, all the time, Mech Is King was a thing, because it's pretty hard to deal with a wall of AV11 or 12 unless you bled through the nose for it.

5th Edition, for me, was when the most people played. My meta was two or three times the size it is now, and we'd hold two-day, 128 player tournaments just down the road. But, for all that, I don't remember having a lot of fun in 5th Ed. And I think most of that came down to the fact that I'd sold my Dark Eldar at the time to jump back onto the Space Marine train (help, I can't get off), and buy my first 5 Razorbacks. It wasn't like 7th was, where every Faction was at the very least, 'pretty good' providing you removed the three obvious pariahs. 5th Ed. was, in no uncertain terms;
Blue Razorbacks, Red Razorbacks, Silver Razorbacks, Grey Razorbacks, Green Razorbacks...Or Chimeras. It was only Necrons screaming in at the end of 5th that saved the meta from being a raging dumpster fire.

While I remember the end of 5th Ed. fondly, I also remember the start of 5th Ed. being a hellhole - there's a reason Matt Ward is not remembered fondly. Basically, the opposite of 7th; which started good, and ended horribly.

What Im trying to get at is that this is more of a generational thing than a design issue.

Not really.
Over the years, I've complained many times about GW and 40K. A lot of people, in that time, have asked me "Well, you're still here. Is it sunk cost fallacy, or what would actually get you to quit? What would make 40K so unrecognisable to you that you would quit?"

I never really had an answer. Given all the **** that's been thrown out over the years...
"Dunno. But I'll know it when I see it. I played Marines during 6th Ed. so it would have to be pretty bad."

I've seen it, now.

It's Apocalypse/8.

(ask anyone who's ever lived in a town that became a tourist trap how that feels, biggest 'the stuff I used to love sucks now' experience ever imho)

I've never related to anything you've said more than this, here.

[Blackhawk748]

QFT.
But, in [current year] all's people can remember about 7th is dual Wraithknights, Battle Companies with +500 Points, and the War Convocation.

If you removed those things from 7th Ed., was 7th good? Yes.

Being fair, those things were such disgusting outliers there's a reason it's burned into people's minds. Now, Battle Companies could actually self nerf, so they weren't quite as awful and I think I saw a War Convocation...once? Eldar are what haunt my nightmares.

As I said, I think the height of the game was 3.5th and the majority of 4th. That was truly when Hobby Was King. If you wanted to do a thing, GW probably had rules for it, and it was probably viable. 5th Ed. changed all of that with Matt Ward, and pretty much 'Play your army how we tell you to play your army.' Which forced certain Factions into certain builds. Some of which were better at the game's win conditions than others (i.e; Survive 'til the end of the game). Since 5th Ed. was all Eternal War, all the time, Mech Is King was a thing, because it's pretty hard to deal with a wall of AV11 or 12 unless you bled through the nose for it.

5th Edition, for me, was when the most people played. My meta was two or three times the size it is now, and we'd hold two-day, 128 player tournaments just down the road. But, for all that, I don't remember having a lot of fun in 5th Ed. And I think most of that came down to the fact that I'd sold my Dark Eldar at the time to jump back onto the Space Marine train (help, I can't get off), and buy my first 5 Razorbacks. It wasn't like 7th was, where every Faction was at the very least, 'pretty good' providing you removed the three obvious pariahs. 5th Ed. was, in no uncertain terms;
Blue Razorbacks, Red Razorbacks, Silver Razorbacks, Grey Razorbacks, Green Razorbacks...Or Chimeras. It was only Necrons screaming in at the end of 5th that saved the meta from being a raging dumpster fire.

While I remember the end of 5th Ed. fondly, I also remember the start of 5th Ed. being a hellhole - there's a reason Matt Ward is not remembered fondly. Basically, the opposite of 7th; which started good, and ended horribly.

Ya, 5th was a trash heap on fire in a diaper factory. It started off sort of ok, then the Blood Angels dex came out and it rapidly went downhill from there, as the 5th Ed codexes were so much higher up than the 4th ed ones they were fighting. It was a ****show

I've never related to anything you've said more than this, here.

I'm with you, and it's not just for 40k, its for a whole lot of things I loved. I've basically been told by half of my hobbies that they don't want want to make the thing I used to love and that I should suckit up/go somewhere else. Well, there isn't somewhere else for half of them! Many of my hobbies are unique in where they sit in the market and so there isn't a copy, so they basically are just telling me to get ****ed and that I need to stop complaining that a thing I loved is being changed for people who just got here and that thee old fans just hate change.

I don't mind change, so long as the change is good. And when peoiple tell me to just "sit down, shut up, and just buy this thing you don't want otehrwise the company dies" my response is "Good." Why would I support something that no longer cares about me?

Now, 40k hasn't hit that point yet, as every time they do something utterly moronic (the Sisters Beta Dex) they do something somewhat intelligent (Crimson Fists). The issue is, is that I can't predict any of this and so I just need to sit and hope. There's a reason I come off as a crab ass on here.

[LansXero]

So I want the basic update structure of 8th, except in just normal free Errata.

Weeellll.... ahoy matey, arr and a pint of rum, you know? with me eye-patch and me parrot and me wooden leg, arr. Which is of course a consequence of GW's prices, not that its any justification, but things like 30$ supplements attached to a 40$ rehash of an old book are not helping either.

I would very much appreciate if GW went back to softback codexes.

Spanish Codices are softback, and they suck, keep getting bent / messed up. Also they have a lower page count, and are 5$ / 10$ cheaper :D

I've never related to anything you've said more than this, here.

Haha, Peru is a great country, with tons of potential.... turned into bull**** to please hipsters and millenials. Our rich, hundred-years old cuisine has become tryhard gourmet crap to be peddled to tourists and influencers; our historical locations are there for selfie abuse. Who cares about listening to the titanic efforts of building a city on the top of a 3000 meter mountain in the middle of a jungle with the nearest quarry being 8 kms. away across a raging river? Its all about the sun and the stars and the spiritual energy and the animals, man. Get some weed, take some selfies, spout some new age crap (because all non-west countries are the same) and be done with it, your history, country and culture are just backdrops for like-whoring.

Not really.
Over the years, I've complained many times about GW and 40K. A lot of people, in that time, have asked me "Well, you're still here. Is it sunk cost fallacy, or what would actually get you to quit? What would make 40K so unrecognisable to you that you would quit?"

I never really had an answer. Given all the **** that's been thrown out over the years...
"Dunno. But I'll know it when I see it. I played Marines during 6th Ed. so it would have to be pretty bad."

I've seen it, now.

It's Apocalypse/8.

Well, the way I see it, rapid-fire releases with CAD sculpts to try and curb recasters / 3Dprinting (thus a ton of superfluous bits) is the way forward. Now, of course, none of that prevents them from incorporating lessons in game and format design from past iterations of the game, except why bother? 8th sells, and has been solidly #1 on its category since launch. Its the easiest to get into the game has ever been, and the '3 ways to play' might be cancer for active communities, but keep small house-groups buying odds and ends here and there. Contrast alone tells you even the hobby wont be the same forever; its not going to be about "battle-ready" and "dont care enough to get good man, its allright to suck man, dont harsh my mellow, man". And for a lot of people, thats great. And the older players need to get with the times, because they aren't changing, or move on. And I know it sucks, I cant get a decent peruvian meal any longer because its all sauco this and guinea pig that and its all 300% more expensive than what it was because 'organic' and 'free-range' and 'homegrown' . But what else is there? Spewing vitriol to the guys who are getting rich off this ****? Like they'll care while wiping their tears away with 100$ bills? Please.

[Wraith]

I thought I would share this, since it's something that I'm quite proud of and is a positive experience that might be a nice pit-stop among the Edition Wars that have resurfaced. Again.

A little while ago I was lamenting the fact that I had no reason to buy Sevrin Loth, despite him being one of my favourite Astartes characters from yester-year.

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A few suggestions were made to have him Counts As, but that went no-where (who even uses Librarians in Power Armour?) and turned out to be a huge troll anyway, since the only way you can get him now is as part of a £50+ Command Squad from Forgeworld... And I'm not paying £50+ for a Command Squad when all I want is one model that I would almost certainly never use.

So instead I decided to build him myself, for an army that I would use; a Grey Knight Justicar to lead my Kill Team.

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Goddamn useless IMGUR no longer allowing hosting....

The hardest part was finding a helmet that looked appropriate - by rights he ought to have an aquila instead of the skull on his forehead, but none of the Mk IV helms have that decoration AND a face-plate with the correct 'expression'.
The backpack is from an old metal Chapter Master mini (though you can get the same thing in plastic from the Vanguard Veteran sprue) and the icon on his back is from a Grey Knight Paladin - I had to buy those, but everything else is out of my bits box. The only thing that I couldn't replicate was the reinforced chestplate that Loth has, so I improvised with more GK bits to bulk him up a bit.

All in all, I'm quite pleased with the result - one of the first models I've been looking forward to painting in a long time. Think I'll keep the white helmet, though - he can be the first 'Purifier' worth having in my collection.

[Blackhawk748]

Spanish Codices are softback, and they suck, keep getting bent / messed up. Also they have a lower page count, and are 5$ / 10$ cheaper :D

Really? Only my Ork Codex had issues. My Nids and Space Marine softbacks are still great, and my Savage World books, as well as my Kings of War pocket books, are real nice. GW just being stupidly cheap again.

Haha, Peru is a great country, with tons of potential.... turned into bull**** to please hipsters and millenials. Our rich, hundred-years old cuisine has become tryhard gourmet crap to be peddled to tourists and influencers; our historical locations are there for selfie abuse. Who cares about listening to the titanic efforts of building a city on the top of a 3000 meter mountain in the middle of a jungle with the nearest quarry being 8 kms. away across a raging river? Its all about the sun and the stars and the spiritual energy and the animals, man. Get some weed, take some selfies, spout some new age crap (because all non-west countries are the same) and be done with it, your history, country and culture are just backdrops for like-whoring.

Ouch, you have my sympathy. I'm glad that my states response to tourism is to just be more us. Don't like it? Don't come here, cuz the resteraunts are still serving what they always have, bcause we're a bunch of German descendants.

Also I would love to go to Peru to hear about that sort of stuff. That **** is insane and beyond impressive, but I'm a history nut.

part of a £50+ Command Squad from Forgeworld...

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Goddamn useless IMGUR no longer allowing hosting....

The hardest part was finding a helmet that looked appropriate - by rights he ought to have an aquila instead of the skull on his forehead, but none of the Mk IV helms have that decoration AND a face-plate with the correct 'expression'.
The backpack is from an old metal Chapter Master mini (though you can get the same thing in plastic from the Vanguard Veteran sprue) and the icon on his back is from a Grey Knight Paladin - I had to buy those, but everything else is out of my bits box. The only thing that I couldn't replicate was the reinforced chestplate that Loth has, so I improvised with more GK bits to bulk him up a bit.

All in all, I'm quite pleased with the result - one of the first models I've been looking forward to painting in a long time. Think I'll keep the white helmet, though - he can be the first 'Purifier' worth having in my collection.

Ew.

Also, looks solid so far

[Cheesegear]

I'm with you, and it's not just for 40k, its for a whole lot of things I loved.

The thing is, for move franchises, the movies you watched are still around. For (PC) video games there are abandonware websites and gog.com and...Other ways...To find old games you used to enjoy if the current crop isn't your deal. The reason why 'Ruining my childhood' arguments always seem stupid, is because the old things you loved, you can still get - for the most part.

Even M;tG runs Modern formats more than occasionally so your old cards don't sit in a box forever, and it's because those old cards are actually usable is the reason a lot of Modern format cards are worth as much as they are.

Want to go back to playing 4th Ed. Tyranids where you can customise all your dudes? **** you.
Hey man, I've got 100+ Tactical Marines, want to buy 'em? **** you.

Unlike other things, with 40K, you can't go back to how it used to be, because the company in charge, wont let you. And since 40K is a community-based game, even if you could uhh...'acquire' a 4th Ed. Black Templars Codex, what would you even do with it?

So if you don't like [current edition], don't play?

But...

Many of my hobbies are unique in where they sit in the market and so there isn't a copy, so they basically are just telling me to get ****ed and that I need to stop complaining that a thing I loved is being changed for people who just got here and that thee old fans just hate change.

...Is basically what I said before.
...Even more importantly, after coming off my motorbike in 2010, I literally can't go back to my old hobbies of skating and surfing, and obviously I don't refurbish motorbikes anymore - because that's even more expensive than GW products.

I don't mind change, so long as the change is good. And when peoiple tell me to just "sit down, shut up, and just buy this thing you don't want otehrwise the company dies" my response is "Good." Why would I support something that no longer cares about me?

More like, "If your opinion is negative, it doesn't count as a real opinion."

Now, 40k hasn't hit that point yet, as every time they do something utterly moronic (the Sisters Beta Dex) they do something somewhat intelligent (Crimson Fists). The issue is, is that I can't predict any of this and so I just need to sit and hope. There's a reason I come off as a crab ass on here.

Again, I always have the sinking feeling that anything good that they do (e.g; Crimson Fists, that you brought up), is an accident, because of things found in the same vein.
Why is the CF Detachment in Vigilus so...Stand out...From the others? Why is WD Crimson Fists, chalk-from-cheese compared to Blood Ravens?

I can't remember who/what Avaris was quoting, but I remember him saying that the designers base their rules based on what the models look like they can do. Which is so stupidly stupid, I fully understand why Marines are so bad - especially Intercessors. The reason Intercessors don't do anything, is because they don't look like they do anything. 'Big dude with Power Armour and big Boltgun.' Cool beans. That's what you get, then.

Meanwhile, all this...Stuff...Coming out for the new Marine 'dex. When all's Marine players were actually asking for was the Stratagems in Vigilus to become standard abilities. If Marines' shots-per-point ratio is still in the toilet, none of this...Stuff...Actually matters because GW isn't addressing the problem that Marines face. That's why Deathwatch are as strong as they are, because each model packs a Storm Bolter, which means Deathwatch are paying 4-5 Points per shot, which is on par for what you should be firing on when dealing with Guardsmen or Cultists.

I keep hearing that Grey Knights are 'just like Deathwatch'. But that's 'cause the literal best player in my country won a semi-decent tournament with GKs. But I'm not about to start comparing myself to the best player in my country. So my Grey Knights that I'm churning out now, are just a hobby project for AoP.

Haha, Peru is a great country, with tons of potential.... turned into bull**** to please hipsters and millenials. Our rich, hundred-years old cuisine has become tryhard gourmet crap to be peddled to tourists and influencers; our historical locations are there for selfie abuse. Who cares about listening to the titanic efforts of building a city on the top of a 3000 meter mountain in the middle of a jungle with the nearest quarry being 8 kms. away across a raging river? Its all about the sun and the stars and the spiritual energy and the animals, man. Get some weed, take some selfies, spout some new age crap (because all non-west countries are the same) and be done with it, your history, country and culture are just backdrops for like-whoring.

Well, mine is nowhere near like that. By Western reckoning, Australia is only ~250 years old.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'The Council tore down the skate park, and gentrified the entire strip along the beach. Making it so that the locals who actually lived (and more importantly, worked) here no longer have anywhere to go because the beach is now packed with tourists, the restaurants are all overpriced (and only one of them even does a decent Eggs Benny), and when school closes for the day, guess where all the teens go? That's right, they loiter about town and actually ruin the tourism.'

Surprise, the council would eventually rebuild the skate park because turns out, without it, vandalism and delinquency skyrocketed from the 'local teen youths'. Any problems with the skate park were immediately solved by posting a pair of cops there after school hours. Shock, having cops actually do community outreach with teenagers improves...Everything. Who knew? Then, because we have a dedicated skate community again, we can actually hold events and suddenly the teenagers aren't doing petty crimes because they're miserable and bored.

...The beach still sucks, though. Who has to clean up all the trash? Locals do. Thanks ****heads for ruining our beach. Glad you enjoyed your week, some of us live here, you know.

(Yes, I do unironically use words like 'rad' and 'sick'.)

Well, the way I see it, rapid-fire releases with CAD sculpts to try and curb recasters / 3Dprinting (thus a ton of superfluous bits)

An image I saw the other day, when people were talking about how CAD makes anything and everything modular and 'design time' on models - especially Marines and Stormcasts - is now piss.

Spoiler: Joking Not Joking

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[9mm]

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Looks better than the current centurion.

[Cheesegear]

Another funny take on the current meta.

Spoiler: Also Joking, but also Not Joking

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[Brookshw]

I threw this question in the Roleplay forum but figure, given that people in this thread are pretty mini-savi, that I'd through it out here as well.

I'm looking for a mini that generally resembles Crono from Chrono Trigger, 25mm or 28mm ideally. So far I'm coming up empty in my searches. Anyone happen to know of one? Something similar perhaps? Turns out spikey hair is hard to track down.

[Blackhawk748]

I threw this question in the Roleplay forum but figure, given that people in this thread are pretty mini-savi, that I'd through it out here as well.

I'm looking for a mini that generally resembles Crono from Chrono Trigger, 25mm or 28mm ideally. So far I'm coming up empty in my searches. Anyone happen to know of one? Something similar perhaps? Turns out spikey hair is hard to track down.

Are you willing to make his hair from green stuff? Because Reaper has a lot of ones who would work if you make the hair. Otherwise Hero Forge could work

[Brookshw]

Are you willing to make his hair from green stuff? Because Reaper has a lot of ones who would work if you make the hair. Otherwise Hero Forge could work

If it comes down to it then green stuff is an option. Checked out Hero Forge, it can get close but not quite all the way there.

[Blackhawk748]

If it comes down to it then green stuff is an option. Checked out Hero Forge, it can get close but not quite all the way there.

I think you're gonna have to do the green stuff or take the close enough option. The only Crono option I saw was a key chain and thats too big

[LansXero]

I threw this question in the Roleplay forum but figure, given that people in this thread are pretty mini-savi, that I'd through it out here as well.

I'm looking for a mini that generally resembles Crono from Chrono Trigger, 25mm or 28mm ideally. So far I'm coming up empty in my searches. Anyone happen to know of one? Something similar perhaps? Turns out spikey hair is hard to track down.

Try Warmahordes warcasters / warlocks. Cygnar should fit most of the look.

[Cheesegear]

Try Warmahordes warcasters / warlocks. Cygnar should fit most of the look.

I was gonna say, Future Steampunk is basically Cygnar's MO (Markus Brisbane is my boi).
Original Coleman Stryker is pretty close.

Spoiler: Coleman Stryker

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[Avaris]

The thing is, for move franchises, the movies you watched are still around. For (PC) video games there are abandonware websites and gog.com and...Other ways...To find old games you used to enjoy if the current crop isn't your deal. The reason why 'Ruining my childhood' arguments always seem stupid, is because the old things you loved, you can still get - for the most part.

Even M;tG runs Modern formats more than occasionally so your old cards don't sit in a box forever, and it's because those old cards are actually usable is the reason a lot of Modern format cards are worth as much as they are.

Want to go back to playing 4th Ed. Tyranids where you can customise all your dudes? **** you.
Hey man, I've got 100+ Tactical Marines, want to buy 'em? **** you.

Unlike other things, with 40K, you can't go back to how it used to be, because the company in charge, wont let you. And since 40K is a community-based game, even if you could uhh...'acquire' a 4th Ed. Black Templars Codex, what would you even do with it?

So if you don't like [current edition], don't play?

A common response I’ve seen elsewhere is ‘no one is taking the old version of the game away from you’. Theoretically they are correct: I still have codexes from 3rd edition on my shelves, but the reality is as you say: it’s not a case of you being able to choose the edition you play, you need your entire gaming community (or enough to have a game) to agree to it. And with something like 40k, where the meta shifts regularly, picking the exact point to return to is all but impossible.

One thing that might be worth trying, if there are others in your community who share a similar view on when was ‘best’, would be a campaign under an older edition? Could be swung as a good ‘budget’ option, as rules and models will be cheaper via ebay than current stuff. Wouldn’t work for pick up games of course, but might let you have a bit of that old satisfaction back? One of my local groups for example is running a Warhammer Fantasy campaign using the 6th edition Ravening Hordes material that got released in WD: if enough people want to do it, it can be a fun alternative. Doesn’t solve the overall problem of course, but it’s an option!

I can't remember who/what Avaris was quoting, but I remember him saying that the designers base their rules based on what the models look like they can do. Which is so stupidly stupid, I fully understand why Marines are so bad - especially Intercessors. The reason Intercessors don't do anything, is because they don't look like they do anything. 'Big dude with Power Armour and big Boltgun.' Cool beans. That's what you get, then.

In case you wanted an answer, I think it was from a recent WD article, I think by the head rules designer of AoS, where they talk about coming up with the rules for a new release. It was talking about a model from the Idoneth Deepkin range, and included stuff like ‘there’s a shark on the model, so we need an ability for that’. I’ve seen it said elsewhere that the rules team can’t even say ‘we need a unit to fill this gap in the army’: they’re stuck with what they’re given (I think they get to make suggestions at least).

It’s utterly stupid as a way to design a game, and directs a lot of my expectations in terms of the quality of the rules GW puts out. It’s why customisation like seen in the old tyranid codex is less of a thing nowadays; they want every option to have a clear model, so don’t allow so much space for conversions. Fixing this is literally the first thing I would do if I ever somehow had influence over how GW operates (the second would be making their release schedule more transparent).

(Edit: it reminds me actually of a thing I heard ages back about GW boasting to shareholders about not doing market research. It’s an utterly stupid approach that GW management have somehow convinced themselves is a positive thing, and announce as such.)

I personally think it’s helpful to bear this prioritisation approach in mind when critiquing the game. The rules designers are designing with at least one hand tied behind their back, so I limit my expectations accordingly and try to find the positive angle on what they’re putting out. Going back to what you’ve said previously about complaining working: you’re absolutely right, but because of these severe limitations on the designers we need to focus our complaints on the things which are really key to fix, otherwise they get lost in the noise.

It’s also why the supplemental games are interesting to me, Warcry being the latest example. The big problem faced by GW rules writers is that their rules need to fit not only the models but also the basic ruleset of the game they’re writing for. Base 40k and AoS needs to accommodate many different things, so this is a challenge! For things like Warcry though, they can adapt the ruleset: the models are unchanged, but the rules suit the needs of the game much more.

[Cheesegear]

A common response I’ve seen elsewhere is ‘no one is taking the old version of the game away from you’. Theoretically they are correct: I still have codexes from 3rd edition on my shelves, but the reality is as you say: it’s not a case of you being able to choose the edition you play, you need your entire gaming community (or enough to have a game) to agree to it. And with something like 40k, where the meta shifts regularly, picking the exact point to return to is all but impossible.

Basically, the way I see it, it's more like [current year] console gaming. You can buy the game. You can own the game. But if the studio shuts down the servers, then your optical disc is just a really expensive coaster. That's what owning an old Codex is like. Technically, the disc still works. Technically, you can still play the game. But a whole suite of features are missing and you have no-one to play with.

(Edit: it reminds me actually of a thing I heard ages back about GW boasting to shareholders about not doing market research. It’s an utterly stupid approach that GW management have somehow convinced themselves is a positive thing, and announce as such.)

I'm pretty sure GW now claims that their big end-of-year surveys are their market research.

The big problem faced by GW rules writers is that their rules need to fit not only the models but also the basic ruleset of the game they’re writing for. Base 40k and AoS needs to accommodate many different things, so this is a challenge! For things like Warcry though, they can adapt the ruleset: the models are unchanged, but the rules suit the needs of the game much more.

The problem with all games, is that the larger they get, the more potential there is to break it. You can watch it happen in real time, with Underworlds.

[Wraith]

I threw this question in the Roleplay forum but figure, given that people in this thread are pretty mini-savi, that I'd through it out here as well.

I'm looking for a mini that generally resembles Crono from Chrono Trigger, 25mm or 28mm ideally. So far I'm coming up empty in my searches. Anyone happen to know of one? Something similar perhaps? Turns out spikey hair is hard to track down.

Are you familiar with Hero Forge?
It's a little bit on the expensive side if all you want is one model, but if you really want that model then you can spend as many hours as you like getting it just perfect, and I happen to know that there's at least one "spiky hair" option.

[Avaris]

I'm pretty sure GW now claims that their big end-of-year surveys are their market research.

Probably, and it’s better than nothing! Community engagement and market research is improving, but it’s got a long way to go.

The problem with all games, is that the larger they get, the more potential there is to break it. You can watch it happen in real time, with Underworlds.

That’s a very good point, and another part of why I think the smaller games are better designed, but then we fall into the problem you’ve highlighted in the past of dividing communities between different games. I’m not at all sure how GW can square the circle of both continuing to put out new content and still allowing old models to be used. The answer they seem to have settled on is ‘power creep’, so new stuff is better than old, but that’s not a good solution. I’m not sure one exists; for example, you can’t have rotation in the same way as MtG, much as I’d like them to, because models are much more investment than cards.

[Cheesegear]

That’s a very good point, and another part of why I think the smaller games are better designed...

They're better designed at launch, because GW can start from scratch with only a handful of things to worry about.
Nek Minnit
Kill Team; Commanders.

You start off with Shadespire. Steelheart vs. Gary. Seems innocuous enough. Steelheart then gets replaced by Orruks and then Farstriders. Gary gets replaced by Fyreslayers, and then by even a second Khorne Warband 'cause WTF is GW even doing? Then Nightvault introduces magic, goblin fanatics and a god-damned Troll... You still running a Shadespire Warband, nerd? I mean, sure it's legal and cards are cards. But what are you even doing with your life?

Same as X-Wing. The more variables you introduce to the game, the faster it breaks, and the more the 'original stuff that was never written with the new stuff in mind', begins to fall apart. But businesses have to business. They have to release new stuff, and the new stuff has to be better than your old stuff, otherwise you have no real incentive to buy it. You don't need more things on your shelf collecting dust, you already have enough of those as it is.

It happens in PNPRPGs all the time. Different authors write different books, and the more splatbooks you add to your character, the harder your character can be broken.

I'm gonna take X from Book 1,
I'm gonna take Y and Z from Book 2,
Then I'm gonna take A from Book 3,
At Level 3, I'm gonna take B from Book 4.
...This will give me a base total of +40% to all my attacks, and +5 to base damage...By level 3, of course.

...You what, mate?

[LansXero]

A common response I’ve seen elsewhere is ‘no one is taking the old version of the game away from you’. (...) One thing that might be worth trying, if there are others in your community who share a similar view on when was ‘best’, would be a campaign under an older edition?

That can work but then I could also run a campaign with no edition and a homebrewed system (which is what we are doing, incidentally, lifting stuff off Dawn of War). Or we could play with beer cans for terrain and coins for models. Community patching doesnt really get taken into account because it can be used for anything, so its more of an assumed thing already.

In case you wanted an answer, I think it was from a recent WD article, I think by the head rules designer of AoS, where they talk about coming up with the rules for a new release. It was talking about a model from the Idoneth Deepkin range, and included stuff like ‘there’s a shark on the model, so we need an ability for that’. I’ve seen it said elsewhere that the rules team can’t even say ‘we need a unit to fill this gap in the army’: they’re stuck with what they’re given (I think they get to make suggestions at least).

It’s utterly stupid as a way to design a game, and directs a lot of my expectations in terms of the quality of the rules GW puts out. It’s why customisation like seen in the old tyranid codex is less of a thing nowadays; they want every option to have a clear model, so don’t allow so much space for conversions.(...)

I personally think it’s helpful to bear this prioritisation approach in mind when critiquing the game. The rules designers are designing with at least one hand tied behind their back, so I limit my expectations accordingly and try to find the positive angle on what they’re putting out.

Remember back when you quoted a solid number for GW's margin that made no sense and couldn't possibly work due to how their duality of selling both to stockists and direct goes? This seems like more of the same: well intentioned but obviously wrong information. Now, I get that you're not the source, but really, the rules design team has no excuses. I mean, sure, stuff like 'the studio wants to put paired combat blades in models, so we need to make a rule for that, even if it looks stupid and those characters dont belong in melee' is probably true, but to go from that to 'the rules team can be excused for their ****ty design as they are constrained by models'. No, not at all. What about Severina's model make her have to suck so bad? What about the Renegade Comissar's model makes him have to have a different keyword from the FW Guard he is supposed to be leading so that it doesnt work at all? What about Sister Amalia's model forces the design team to give her no rules at all whatsoever and just be a regular generic Superior? What part of model design ties their hands to their hodgepodge, random points value, overcosting of things or nerfing of models that weren't a problem in the first place? Or will you say the model studio is the reason the Blood Ravens chapter trait is so crap? I get that new releases are dictated by models and those are based on sales and rule-of-cool (as they understand it, anyways). But a lot of the game's design can be improved without touching the models, through rules, abilities or points costs. And they dont, and they dont even try, and fall back on the comfortable excuse of 'we just dont have the proper new models to fix this'.

It’s also why the supplemental games are interesting to me, Warcry being the latest example. The big problem faced by GW rules writers is that their rules need to fit not only the models but also the basic ruleset of the game they’re writing for.

You'll really wanna revisit that statement soon I believe. Currently, base AoS warbands are appearing to be better than the core box warbands, at least from our initial tries. No idea on what the competitive game will look like, or how the box set warbands fare (havent gotten them out of customs yet) but I suspect that as people become more familiar with the game, the gap will widen, not close. So despite having a tiny design pool to handle, they seem to have been able to screw up that as well. Although I expect it wont matter much; much like Apoc/8th, interest in it will fizzle out in a couple of weeks and it'll be as forgotten as Champions of Ruin, Zone Mortalis, Necromunda, etc.

[Avaris]

Now, I get that you're not the source, but really, the rules design team has no excuses. I mean, sure, stuff like 'the studio wants to put paired combat blades in models, so we need to make a rule for that, even if it looks stupid and those characters dont belong in melee' is probably true, but to go from that to 'the rules team can be excused for their ****ty design as they are constrained by models'. No, not at all. What about Severina's model make her have to suck so bad? What about the Renegade Comissar's model makes him have to have a different keyword from the FW Guard he is supposed to be leading so that it doesnt work at all? What about Sister Amalia's model forces the design team to give her no rules at all whatsoever and just be a regular generic Superior? What part of model design ties their hands to their hodgepodge, random points value, overcosting of things or nerfing of models that weren't a problem in the first place? Or will you say the model studio is the reason the Blood Ravens chapter trait is so crap? I get that new releases are dictated by models and those are based on sales and rule-of-cool (as they understand it, anyways). But a lot of the game's design can be improved without touching the models, through rules, abilities or points costs. And they dont, and they dont even try, and fall back on the comfortable excuse of 'we just dont have the proper new models to fix this'.

You’re not wrong, there’s definitely things they could do better. My actual argument is one of resources and management approach, which is where the problem lies, not just with the rules designers themselves. The company is led by the model design, which tells us that they don’t prioritise the rules. Therefore, the rules team is likely understaffed, and worse are told that their priority should be making cool rules for the models. This creates a very different mindset to that necessary to create a really tightly designed game. You need a certain mindset to be able to see how everything fits together into a game, and I don’t think anything about GW’s structure encourages that mindset. For example, my understanding is that each set of rules is written by only one or two designers, with little input from others, so each codex is dependent on their skills and pistol obsession preferences. They don’t fix how things fit together because their structures don’t allow them to see the problem.

To take your mentioned cases, each of them can be understood as a product of their design led approach and decisions by management. Severina Raine was made as a novel tie in, so her rules reflect the novel, without any incentive to consider the wider place in the game. The traitor commissar is designed for Blackstone Fortress first, so 40k rules are an afterthought, let alone fitting in with FW stuff, which is a seperate studio. The new Sister is a preview model for the new range, so they just reprinted the existing rules as there was no incentive to come up with new ones. The Blood Ravens were a side project for WD, with no models tie in and so no internal budget attached, so they had to ‘play it safe’ as there would be no chance to playtest. All of these are terrible ways to design rules for the game, but they are not simply a product of ‘lazy’ rules designers, but rather a product of the particular approach taken by GW to their business.

This isn’t intended as making excuses for them, though I accept it often comes across that way! I’m personally fascinated by game design and the approach taken by different gaming companies: I try to find the explanation for why they do what they do, and think it’s important to understand that when critiquing them. But when I try to analyse or explain those processes it seems like I’m defending them, which is not necessarily true. There are a lot of stupid things GW does which we’re only recently getting insight into through their more open approach; once we understand those, we can better target our criticism so that we don’t only fix the problems we keep seeing, but stop them occuring again.

GW needs criticism that leads to cultural change, not just highlighting where individual rules could be improved. And, in my opinion, the best starting place for encouraging that change is a positive outlook on how to make things better, otherwise the studio will just dig their heels in and adopt a mindset that the players will never be happy with anything they do. As a community, we shouldn’t just be saying ‘this is bad’, but ‘this is what is good, and this is how it could be made better.’

Edit: to put it another way, the reason I don’t like what I see as an overly negative attitude to the game is because it paints GW as the enemy, either through incompetence or maliciousness. I don’t think this is true beyond the level it is true of any capitalist company: I believe they want the game to be the best it can be. So I try to understand the way they work and the reasons they do what they do before applying criticism, and takes a stance that presupposes they want to improve things.

You'll really wanna revisit that statement soon I believe. Currently, base AoS warbands are appearing to be better than the core box warbands, at least from our initial tries. No idea on what the competitive game will look like, or how the box set warbands fare (havent gotten them out of customs yet) but I suspect that as people become more familiar with the game, the gap will widen, not close. So despite having a tiny design pool to handle, they seem to have been able to screw up that as well. Although I expect it wont matter much; much like Apoc/8th, interest in it will fizzle out in a couple of weeks and it'll be as forgotten as Champions of Ruin, Zone Mortalis, Necromunda, etc.

I did actually consider mentioning that, as I’ve heard the criticism and it’s a perfect illustration of what Cheesegear and I are saying, with things being added to the game causing problems. Warcry as designed is very good, but then there was probably a well intentioned but misguided suggestion to add rules for other factions. This was probably later in the process and not a focus of playtesting, because they’re not new models so why would a models led company allocate resource to testing that? So they end up overpowered compared to the other warbands, which is a shame.

[Cheesegear]

The Blood Ravens were a side project for WD, with no models tie in and so no internal budget attached, so they had to ‘play it safe’ as there would be no chance to playtest.

As I said before, when you see what they were able to do with Crimson Fists, using almost certainly the same amount of resources, you realise that whoever wrote the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactics didn't even try.

We also know, for a fact, that GW can errata anything they want within 24 hours. We've seen it. They choose not to.

As a community, we shouldn’t just be saying ‘this is bad’, but ‘this is what is good, and this is how it could be made better.’

Why do you need to improve what's good?
Good things don't need improving. It's the bad things that suck.

[LansXero]

The Blood Ravens were a side project for WD, with no models tie in and so no internal budget attached, so they had to ‘play it safe’ as there would be no chance to playtest. All of these are terrible ways to design rules for the game, but they are not simply a product of ‘lazy’ rules designers, but rather a product of the particular approach taken by GW to their business.

Because google / youtube for the wealth of information on them from almost a dozen games surely is budget intensive? Hell take any random guy from BoLS or Dakka and get them to do it for free, most likely wont be worse and if its OP it'll get banned so who cares? At least you dont **** on the fanbase of a beloved video game series that got so many people invested on your brand. You know, the kind of thing you're peddling crap boardgames on mass market for? The kind of stuff the recent sludge of poorly developed and worse supported videogames are failing to do? Thats what DoW accomplished and the current WD portrait of their iconic faction is complete BS. Hell if its about the cash, make a Supplement: Blood Ravens to tie in with the new Marines 2.0 release; you wanna guess how many Gabriel Angelos: Primaris would sell? Likely more than the new Kor'sarro, I bet.

GW needs criticism that leads to cultural change

Which is why people vote with their money by moving their purchases to recasters. GW forgets that whats truly propietary to them isnt the models, but the game; any recaster can rip off their carefully designed CAD sculpts. They cant replicate a healthy gaming scene, so it should be obvious where their efforts should go.

GW as the enemy, either through incompetence or maliciousness

.

Thats because you forget these things cost money, and with every loss of goodwill for the company come hard earned dollars from stockists who take crap for it to collect dust unsold in shelves, from players who got suckered into stuff they wont use or be able to re-sell, etc. Sure, GW also damages their brand, but they do so after making a killing at a margin thats only allowed because their competition keep imploding themselves, not through any real achievement of their own.

[Cheesegear]

[GW's] competition keep imploding themselves, not through any real achievement of their own.

I chuckled.

[LansXero]

I chuckled.

I bet Pagani did too, when he left Privateer Press with a burning wreck of a game and went to work for FFG to launch their expensive Heroclix knock-off. Because unpainted minis worked so well for Star Wars (Legion is dying), and Runewars was such a success (its dead).

[Avaris]

Why do you need to improve what's good?
Good things don't need improving. It's the bad things that suck.

Positive reinforcement. Both the good and the bad are part of a wider whole. You've said yourself that 8th is the best the game has ever been, but it's very difficult to see that message if most of what is seen is 'this is terrible'. What we want is to identify both what we like and what we don't, so that the latter becomes more like the former. Also, a rules studio is much more likely to be incentivised to improve things if they feel they can succeed, rather than being told everything they do is terrible. Build up, don't tear down.

Thats because you forget these things cost money, and with every loss of goodwill for the company come hard earned dollars from stockists who take crap for it to collect dust unsold in shelves, from players who got suckered into stuff they wont use or be able to re-sell, etc. Sure, GW also damages their brand, but they do so after making a killing at a margin thats only allowed because their competition keep imploding themselves, not through any real achievement of their own.

I've mentioned before that I drifted out of the hobby around 6th edition. A large part of the reason for that was disgust at their corporate practices, which was reinforced by the mess of AoS a while later, where you had a year of very expensive books released in rapid succession that were then invalidated entirely within months. So I absolutely understand this perspective, though I've not been exposed to it as severely as you. The reason GW needs corporate change is so that they can find a model that works better for retailers and for hobbyists, otherwise we're just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic (which is actually very apt: for a long time GW felt they were unsinkable and could do whatever they want).

The reason I came back to the hobby is because I genuinely believe that GW is finally starting on that route. They've openly said they made mistakes with the rollout of AoS for example: admitting a mistake like that would be unthinkable a decade ago. Their attitude is changing, improvements are being made. Probably not as fast as they could be, but with this mindset I think it is far better not to think of them as an enemy in trying to create positive hobby environment.

[Turalisj]

I bet Pagani did too, when he left Privateer Press with a burning wreck of a game and went to work for FFG to launch their expensive Heroclix knock-off. Because unpainted minis worked so well for Star Wars (Legion is dying), and Runewars was such a success (its dead).

Legion is doing well from what I can tell, no official numbers but I see plenty of activity on the discord.

[Avaris]

In entirely separate news, a friend and I have been trying a modded version of 40k featuring alternate activation and cribbing off Apocalypse's damage at end of turn thing. Our objective is to reduce first turn advantage and the feel bad moment of losing a model without it getting the chance to do anything.

Current version is:

• Alternate activating units and carrying out a full turn for them up to the end of the combat phase
• When dealing damage, stop at the point you would normally make saving throws and note down the number of wounds, their AP and amount of damage. Roll all saves for a unit at once as the first step of the morale phase, after all units have activated
• The exception to the above is damage from mortal wounds. These take effect immediately.

So far it's working pretty well! There are a few things to iron out, like ensuring that characters with auras are useful and needing to keep track of deny the witch etc, but the principle seems sound. Moving damage to the end of turn is really good for creating a moment of tension, which we enjoy.

Any thoughts? (I already know Cheesegear will hate it, though I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Mortal Wounds rule, which creates the rare opportunity to eliminate something before it can act, which I know is your major problem with damage at end of turn).

[Brookshw]

I think you're gonna have to do the green stuff or take the close enough option. The only Crono option I saw was a key chain and thats too big

After a lot of searching it definitely is going to be green stuff. Gotta admit that I'm surprised, there are so many knock-off iconic characters out there I really thought there would be a Chrono line somewhere. Ah well.

Thanks for the recommendations though Cheese/Lans/Wraith/Black

[Wraith]

After a lot of searching it definitely is going to be green stuff. Gotta admit that I'm surprised, there are so many knock-off iconic characters out there I really thought there would be a Chrono line somewhere. Ah well.

I was genuinely surprised to find that the makers of Zombicide hadn't done a Chrono Trigger line yet, but it seems to be about the ONLY property they haven't "reinterpreted".