Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Cosi]

that all expendables are 10 times more expensive than what is listed and hence that the build is far over allowed wealth. I have no idea where this is coming from and no rule has been cited---maybe it's some house rule for tournaments that Beheld once played with.

Beheld seems to be misremembering the number, but this is an actual rule. DMG page 199 says that 1-use items (or "expendables") cost 5 times as much in a one-shot setting.

[lord_khaine]

I do think thats kinda unfair to apply here though. Looking at the shopping list i dont see any overtly abuse of expendable items.
And i dont think its fair to put ammunition into that catagory.

Though at the same time, do think its fair enough if the Ring of Spell storing is made to cost either 1/2 or 1/4 price for its use in the build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I do think thats kinda unfair to apply here though. Looking at the shopping list i dont see any overtly abuse of expendable items.
And i dont think its fair to put ammunition into that catagory.

Rules are rules.

[lord_khaine]

Rules are rules.

Indeed, but the point i were trying to make, is that i did not think that rule should apply here, when Anthrowhale has not build his character like if he were going in for a one-shot fight.
As i recall, he isnt using any potions or wands by default. And a argument can be made for ammunition being a seperate catagory.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Indeed, but the point i were trying to make, is that i did not think that rule should apply here, when Anthrowhale has not build his character like if he were going in for a one-shot fight.
As i recall, he isnt using any potions or wands by default. And a argument can be made for ammunition being a seperate catagory.

That really doesn't matter. Either this is a RAW challenge or it isn't. The x5 cost for consumable items in one-shot adventures is to prevent abuse.

You could argue ammunition doesn't count; I don't think that's unreasonable.

[lord_khaine]

That really doesn't matter. Either this is a RAW challenge or it isn't. The x5 cost for consumable items in one-shot adventures is to prevent abuse.

You could argue ammunition doesn't count; I don't think that's unreasonable.

And im stating thats nitpicking at this point. The x5 cost for consumeables have never traditionally been used on this board for build examples. And the provided build dont really rely on consumeables either.
Case in point, its wasting several thousand gold on dragon bane arrows. And magical silver arrows that a balor is going to ignore. And 5+ dublicates of every potion, a lot of them not even used in the fight.

So since Anthrowhale has not provided a fighter for a one shot challenge. But an example of a full level 20 build that just happens to be able to defeat a balor, then i cant see that rule is relevant.
But look for yourself, the item list is somewhere on page 2 or 3.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And im stating thats nitpicking at this point. The x5 cost for consumeables have never traditionally been used on this board for build examples. And the provided build dont really rely on consumeables either.
Case in point, its wasting several thousand gold on dragon bane arrows. And magical silver arrows that a balor is going to ignore. And 5+ dublicates of every potion, a lot of them not even used in the fight.

So since Anthrowhale has not provided a fighter for a one shot challenge. But an example of a full level 20 build that just happens to be able to defeat a balor, then i cant see that rule is relevant.
But look for yourself, the item list is somewhere on page 2 or 3.

Fine. I doubt it will change anything in this particular case.

Edit: I just looked at his gear; that's quite a bit of consumables. Why bother with them if you're not going to use them?

[Dagroth]

Fine. I doubt it will change anything in this particular case.

Edit: I just looked at his gear; that's quite a bit of consumables. Why bother with them if you're not going to use them?

Again, because this is a build for a Fighter... not a build for a One Shot, Arena Only, Only to Defeat a Balor Fighter.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Again, because this is a build for a Fighter... not a build for a One Shot, Arena Only, Only to Defeat a Balor Fighter.

I should hope so, because the latter doesn't prove anything.

A Commoner could probably take the Pit Fiend if we gave her enough money. Does that make the Commoner a viable class? Of course not!

[Anthrowhale]

Jormengand complained about a Pit Fiend specific build here so I rejiggered Lans's build as a general purpose fighter for high level combat, including multiple kinds of combat and a sequence of combats in a row as Dagroth and Lord_Khaine point out. The consumable redundancy and variety exists to deal with all the eventualities that might entail.

Furthermore, this appears to be inline with expectations. Looking at Treasure value per encounter on page 51 this implies 270K = 13.5 expected encounters/level * (80K / 4 people) treasure is supposed to be gained at 20th level. On the other hand wealth is only supposed to increase by 215K according to ELH page 23. Hence, you are supposed to burn 55K on expendables in a party of 4 or for solo encounters at EL 20 where the number of encounters per level drops to 3.375 you should burn 16.3K gp on expendables per encounter. These numbers are entirely inline with the build.

Obviously, I could reduce the consumables significantly for just attacking a Pit Fiend and in that case it would seem fair to impose the x5 cost for one shots rule. But I won't do that unless there is a consensus that criticism for lack of generality is invalid and rescinded. Criticizing a build both because it is not general purpose and because you did not impose the special purpose extra cost rule is simply unfair in general.

BTW, the non-anarchic silver arrows are deadly for a Pit Fiend. This build is highly likely to both get surprise and win initiative against a Pit Fiend resulting in an opportunity to many shot + an opportunity to full attack. The damage is obviously lower than with anarchic arrows (expected 140 vs 168 and 203 vs 245) but they remain a near-certain kill against the Pit Fiend for the modest price of 10 silver arrows (20 gp). The anarchic arrows are there just in case the build fails to achieve surprise---they provide an expected kill with only a full attack.

W.r.t. commoners, I'd encourage you to figure out how much wealth would actually be needed to challenge a Pit Fiend. Only Cosi has tried, and Candle of Invocation approaches are not convincing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

W.r.t. commoners, I'd encourage you to figure out how much wealth would actually be needed to challenge a Pit Fiend. Only Cosi has tried, and Candle of Invocation approaches are not convincing.

I think Candles of Invocation are a bit much, but I think I could throw something together. I doubt it'd be able to solo 4-5 CR appropriate encounters a day, but I think I could make a Commoner that can kill one Pit Fiend.

UMDing Divine Power would help in the BAB department...

Is a 1 level Rogue dip legal?

Also, am I correct in assuming this is Core only?

[Anthrowhale]

No dips, because the goal is an unadulterated commoner

[ColorBlindNinja]

No dips, because the goal is an unadulterated commoner

What sort of UMD check did your Fighter have? I looked in your spoilers on page 2, but I couldn't find it.

Core only, or can I use splats?

Edit: What about LA?

[Anthrowhale]

What sort of UMD check did your Fighter have? I looked in your spoilers on page 2, but I couldn't find it.

Core only, or can I use splats?

The fighter does not use UMD. Core only is the game at the moment.

You can have LA but it subtracts from your available class levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The fighter does not use UMD. Core only is the game at the moment.

You can have LA but it subtracts from your available class levels.

Really? It was under the impression that we were using a UMD Fighter. I'll see what I can come up with.

[Florian]

Really? It was under the impression that we were using a UMD Fighter. I'll see what I can come up with.

You´ve got the impression because I would make heavy use of UMD on a Fighter, but I didn't´t post a build here, only mentioned it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have a vague idea floating around. Making a Commoner that can hit the DC 39 check necessary for UMDing a 9th level scroll isn't actually that hard.

My current plan is using Shades to emulate the trigger version of Trap the Soul. That should defeat the Pit Fiend with no save.

Kinda cheesy, but not to the same degree as the Candle of Invocation. I could also Gate in a Solar and have it beat on the Pit Fiend.

I haven't got that many options, I'm a core only level 20 Commoner.

Edit:

I need to max CHA and UMD, then take Skill Focus, put at least 5 ranks in Decipher Script + Spellcraft. All I need is a 12 in INT or so and that should suffice. My other stats don't matter.

Later Edit:

I should max DEX too so I can pump my initiative score up. Improved Initiative would be nice too.

[Beheld]

Indeed, but the point i were trying to make, is that i did not think that rule should apply here, when Anthrowhale has not build his character like if he were going in for a one-shot fight.
As i recall, he isnt using any potions or wands by default. And a argument can be made for ammunition being a seperate catagory.

His entire build is premised on coating his bow with an oil of greater magic weapon every single day. Also coating his shirt with an Oil of Greater Magic Vestment, also Barkskin. Also Permancied spells that he loses to dispel every single time he fights an enemy, also he has potions of resist energy he will pull out for every fight, also he has entirely non standard arrows that cost more so that he can fire only special arrows against every enemy he faces in a one shot.

Also he just went back and edited the items to include a "expendable" True Seeing, even though he allegedly doesn't use UMD, and you can't have a potion of that. Hmm, I wonder if he intends to use that consumable he just made up in the fight.

The entire build without consumables doesn't even function reasonably, and all of his tactics assume heavy consumable usage in a way that takes advantage of the fact that he only has to fight one enemy, so he can afford to blow thousands of gp on a single fight.

I would use the word adjust instead of match, and adjusting up is a lot easier than adjusting down by raw. By the rules you can basically make the pit fiend an EL21 encounter, select worse feats, and maybe say he didn't have a mountain of corpses to mummify, and make the fight on neutral, or even the pcs turf. On the making things harder you can do the opposite, then give the Fiend equipment.

Actually using, the rules, the Pit Fiend having treasure and using it is already calculated into it's CR. That doesn't increase CR.

I find everything else you are saying here incomprehensible. Items that don't exist? 1.5Mgp? Your unwillingness to provide any explanation or references despite requests implies you have none.

Your refusal to read, and then arbitrary declaration the things you refuse to read don't exist is really annoying. I already explained why your vastly exceeded WBL. You never ask for references, you just make generic insults based on lies, and then ignore everything I say about the issue. I specifically stated that I was referring to the extra cost for consumables items in a one shot. If you had wanted to correct me on the specific cost, as Cosi did, that would be one thing, but instead, you lied, again, by claiming I never explained what I was talking about, when I did.

I tried to understand two more of Beheld's wrong claims and largely failed---there just isn't enough detail provided. Anyways, here they are (and I've added them to the original post.)

Spoiler: Yes, it's really all just 760K gp

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Beheld claims that all expendables are 10 times more expensive than what is listed and hence that the build is far over allowed wealth. I have no idea where this is coming from and no rule has been cited---maybe it's some house rule for tournaments that Beheld once played with.

Spoiler: The halfling's move is 20 or more

Show

Beheld claims the the halfling's movement speed is 10. . This is simply false as a halfling has a movement speed of 20 which can be enhanced to 50 with haste, 60 with a fly potion, or 90 with both. My best guess is that Beheld took Hide as a constraint and read the second sentence while missing the third and fourth sentences.

Here it is again. This is what I'm talking about.

I say something, you lie about it, then I correct your lie, and then you just lie the exact same lie again without even acknowledging what I said.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN HALVES MOVEMENT SPEED. I already said that. You claimed that you have permanent cover in all locations, that would require difficult terrain.

You certainly could, if you were anyone actually interested in any honest conversation, address my actual arguments, but you instead choose to just lie and claim they never happened so you can keep lying about what I said. It's ****ing frustrating. Just one ****ing time when I correct you on something, pretend to be capable of reading what I said. You don't have to agree with it, but for ****s sake just actually address it instead of repeating your lie again one time.

[ColorBlindNinja]

For my Commoner Build, I was thinking about using a Grey Elf.

Spoiler: Commoner Build WIP

Show

HP: 142

AC: 22

INIT: +13

STR: 6 (-2)
DEX: 29 (+9)
CON: 21 (+5)
INT: (+1)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA 34 (+12)

32 Point Buy

SAVES:

FORT: +11
REF: +15
WILL: +5

UMD: 32 total (11 ranks)

5 Ranks in Spellcraft/Decipher Script

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Skill Focus UMD
Magical Aptitude

I'll fill in more details later.

Edit: The only items I bought (aside from the 9th level scroll) were Gloves of DEX/Cloak of CHA, and two +5 inherent bonus for DEX/CHA.

Later Edit: Bought some CON boosts.

Even if that scroll was Gate, I still have 230,675 GP left over.

[Florian]

For my Commoner Build, I was thinking about using a Grey Elf.

A while ago, there was a PF competition for a Commoner build, no base classes.
I used Commoner 5 > Prophet of Cailstrade 2 > Noble Scion 3 > Arcane Archer 10, based on a H-Elf.
PoC is the "Cult of Wall Street/Capitalism", using Profession: Merchant instead of Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcane and powering spell slots directly with WBL. T´was fun.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A while ago, there was a PF competition for a Commoner build, no base classes.
I used Commoner 5 > Prophet of Cailstrade 2 > Noble Scion 3 > Arcane Archer 10, based on a H-Elf.
PoC is the "Cult of Wall Street/Capitalism", using Profession: Merchant instead of Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcane and powering spell slots directly with WBL. T´was fun.

I didn't think Prestige Classes would be legal for this little challenge. Arcane Archer could work nicely, though.

On the other hand, the Commoner only has a +22 to hit or so with ranged weapons.

I think I'll call her Carry the Commoner...

Edit: Arcane Archer is a no go, I can't dip into another class to meet the spellcasting requirement.

Later Edit: Not +22, +19.

[Lans]

Actually using, the rules, the Pit Fiend having treasure and using it is already calculated into it's CR. That doesn't increase CR.

I was using that as a list of things a DM can and should do to alter the challenge to account for weak or strong characters in a way that doesn't change the CR. Like against a party of 4 npc classes the dm can weaken the pit fiend by changing its skills and feats to be heavily perform and craft based, and have all its treasure wrapped up in a really fancy fiddle of gold, against a party of high tier characters the feats and skills get changed to be more optimal, 50% of its treasure becomes expendables that it pops then the pcs enter his lair and he gets an efficient spread of equipment, with the middle ground being more inline with what is present in the MM with random treasure generated

[Anthrowhale]

For my Commoner Build, I was thinking about using a Grey Elf.
...

How do you get a high dexterity and a high charisma? I don't think that's possible in core.

You probably want a stealth & observation package similar to the fighter build as otherwise the Pit Fiend will find & surprise you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How do you get a high dexterity and a high charisma? I don't think that's possible in core.

You probably want a stealth & observation package similar to the fighter build as otherwise the Pit Fiend will find & surprise you.

You're right, DEX is 5 points too high. I'll fix it.

Edit: As for stealth, I assumed this was an arena style deal where both combatants enter the battlefield, bow politely and then roll for initiative.

[Anthrowhale]

Also he just went back and edited the items to include a "expendable" True Seeing, even though he allegedly doesn't use UMD, and you can't have a potion of that. Hmm, I wonder if he intends to use that consumable he just made up in the fight.

The True Seeing is loaded in the Ring of Spell Storing which Lans wanted the build to have to cover all bases.

W.r.t. consumables, you are making assumptions about what will be used in a fight that may or may not be valid. Consumable usage will depend on the fight. Since the stealth & observation suite mostly does not depend on consumables, there is significant discretion to control consumable usage. Altogether I'm confident that your assertions about usage will be wrong in practice and that consumable usage will remain inline with the 16K/encounter guideline given by the DMG.

...You never ask for references...

I've asked for references here.

Citation needed. I never claimed that you can have cover against everything.

which you ignored. I've also given references generously while you once again give none.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN HALVES MOVEMENT SPEED.

Technically, difficult terrain doubles movement cost rather than halving movement. In any case, this seems to only be relevant in some previously unspecified world where all terrain is difficult. There were certainly no such conditions or explanation associated with your assertions.

You claimed that you have permanent cover in all locations, that would require difficult terrain.

Again, I never claimed permanent cover in all locations. Your inability to find any citation where I state this is rather telling.

[Anthrowhale]

You're right, DEX is 5 points too high. I'll fix it.

Edit: As for stealth, I assumed this was an arena style deal where both combatants enter the battlefield, bow politely and then roll for initiative.

There have certainly been many discussions of real gaming and realistic conditions, so adding a stealth package seems at least desirable in case it's not an arena. (And, even in an arena, it can be useful.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

There have certainly been many discussions of real gaming and realistic conditions, so adding a stealth package seems at least desirable in case it's not an arena. (And, even in an arena, it can be useful.)

I think I could only get a Move Silently/Hide bonus of around +15 or so. I doubt that's going to help much.

Edit: Pit Fiends have a +29 to Listen, and most arenas don't have many places to hide.

[Anthrowhale]

Your build reminded me that I had forgotten about skill focus. I added that in the fighter build while throwing away some filler feats. Amongst other things, this gets hide-with-snipe up to 80%

I think I could only get a Move Silently/Hide bonus of around +15 or so. I doubt that's going to help much.

Edit: Pit Fiends have a +29 to Listen, and most arenas don't have many places to hide.

You can get +15 (Competence) on your armor alone and your full Dex bonus applies. A ring of invisibility provides total concealment for a hide. In general, you might want to poke through the fighter build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can get +15 (Competence) on your armor alone and your full Dex bonus applies. A ring of invisibility provides total concealment for a hide. In general, you might want to poke through the fighter build.

I could have sworn Pit Fiend's had True Seeing. Guess not, getting a wand of Greater Invisibility might be a decent tactic.

I could buy the armor, but I can't help but think that there are more important enhancements I could be getting.

Honestly, if there's no surprise round, Carry should be able to beat the Pit Fiend's initiative on average rolls and just Gate in a Solar.

Edit: I do have a ton of spare cash, the armor couldn't hurt.

Later Edit: I don't think you can provide magic armor enhancements to the Bracer of Armor, it's a Wondrous Item.

[Anthrowhale]

For my Commoner Build, I was thinking about using a Grey Elf.

Reading through again, an initiative bonus of +13 is uncomfortably close to the Pit Fiend's +12 and you die if you lose initiative. I don't know if you can improve on that, but it bears some thought.

My understanding of your strategy is: (1) Pray you win initiative (2) gate a 34- HD minion for 17 rounds to deal with the Pit Fiend. A Solar might be a good choice to counter the Pit Fiend. But with this strategy, nothing keeps the Pit Fiend from ignoring the Solar in the first round and incinerating you with Meteor Swarm. Do you have a counter? Lose-or-tie is not an appealing outcome.