OOTS #1076 - The Discussion Thread

[JumboWheat01]

Yeah, after the shindig that was the English Word/Grammar thing last comic's thread, let's not start up a Spanish one.

[2D8HP]

...since Andi's s got to repair the whole ship, she has to know "what not to touch" when doing repairs. That she doesn't know the ship inside and out means either that (1) Julio has a crap training/professional development program, or (2) Andi is a tunnel vision engineer who is all into engines and naught else...

I'm in "Engineering" at my job of five years, and I'm very much a "tunnel vision engineer".

When people ask where's such-and-such court or investigators office is my typical (and true) response is, "Sorry, I only know where the restrooms and shutoff valves are".

Being very Andromeda-like myself I can very easily imagine Andi being too blinkered to know that aspect of the Mechane.

Yeah, after the shindig that was the English Word/Grammar thing last comic's thread, let's not start up a Spanish one.

Then what's the Forum for?

[Kantaki]

Then what's the Forum for?

Changing a thead's topic more often per page than it has pages?

[Quebbster]

Bandana has been on the Mechane since she was a kid. Being a kid, she probably investigated every nook and cranny she could find and asked anyone she could get hold off what everything did.
Also, do note that the other crewmember who remembers the innocent traveller plan is the halfelf who's been on the ship longer than Andi. It was probably ages ago that they last had to jettison the weapons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bandana has been on the Mechane since she was a kid. Being a kid, she probably investigated every nook and cranny she could find and asked anyone she could get hold off what everything did.

From her own words, she only knew of the release system because her parents told her about it (or possibly, discussed it while she was in the room).

Also, do note that the other crewmember who remembers the innocent traveller plan is the halfelf who's been on the ship longer than Andi. It was probably ages ago that they last had to jettison the weapons.

I get the feeling they it was never used at all before this point. But YMMV.

GW

[hroþila]

I'ma quote myself on Scoundrél:

"Scoundrél" is not Spanish. If it were a Spanish word (notwithstanding its non-Spanish phonology), the e wouldn't be accented, assuming that the accent in the original name simply marks the stress. Presumably it's just a non-standard diacritic to suggest that his name is stressed on the last syllable, not on the first like in English. But it might well be some vaguely French flourishing. Julio is meant to be Hispanic, but that doesn't mean his surname is Spanish. I bet it's a stage name anyway.

[Quibblicious]

Speaking as the father (on this Father's Day) of, coincidentally, a 10 year old and a 13 year old, though mine happen to be boys - the interests there are running both ways (at least, for the 13 year old) and I'm working hard to teach them enough situational awareness to recognize the look in a father's eye that involves calculations involving back-hoes and the north 40 acres.

You're a good dad, then.


Q

[Dain]

It gets worse. Proper names aren't subject to Spanish grammar rules, so even though Julio doesn't need an accent on the u (it is implied, since it ends in a vowel; you'd only need an accent if the stress syllable was anywhere but the u), there is nothing to stop a Julio from putting it there.

And Scoundrél is not even Spanish ("s+consonant" is not allowed at word start in Spanish), and if it were, say, Escoundrel, it would also not need an accent because, finishing in a consonant other than n or s, the implicit accent is on the final e.

(Not sure why I'm on this thing lately of explaining Spanish grammar rules in the forum)

Grey Wolf

Actually, spanish proper names follow spanish grammar rules the same as the rest. For example Héctor needs the accent, because the stress is on the penultimate syllable and ends with r.

The issue comes when people import similar names from other countries with different spelling or even when they don't know how to write their own name (which is not so uncommon, sadly) and therefore sometimes confusion arises.

[One Skunk Todd]

Was nobody else expecting the ballistae to discharge as they landed on the Flumphs? The bolts perhaps flying humorously close to the Mechane before going over the ridge and striking some unsuspecting giants? :)

Of course if the one giant survived the fall then she has six shots as Mechane flies away.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, spanish proper names follow spanish grammar rules the same as the rest. For example Héctor needs the accent, because the stress is on the penultimate syllable and ends with r.

The issue comes when people import similar names from other countries with different spelling or even when they don't know how to write their own name (which is not so uncommon, sadly) and therefore sometimes confusion arises.

The rule is literally "traditional names should follow grammatical rules, but if they don't, they don't". Modern names, borrowed ones from other languages, etc don't even get mentioned in the rule. It is the most exception-ridden part of the Spanish language. If Hector wants his name written without the accent, then you don't get to tell him he is wrong. You may mispronounce his name, but the Spanish text "Hector compró huevos"* cannot be said to have a grammar error.

Now, you can say that since the rule is "the name is written how the person wants it to", then every name follows grammatical rules in Spanish. But honestly, to me that reads like "names don't follow the normal grammatical rules of Spanish".

Grey Wolf

*Hector bought eggs

[Jay R]

The accent in "Scoundrél" is there just to make it slightly less like the English word "scoundrel".

When I invent a Julio-like character, I plan to name him "Romeo Rascál".

[Rogar Demonblud]

Speaking as a dad of 10 year old and soon to be 13 year old girls, I can say with authority that the sick kid, sleep deprived phase is blessedly short.

It's the "boys are interested in them in a way I don't like, and I'm running out of space for the bodies" phase that worries me...



Q

I always figured the Bag of Devouring was invented by a father with that problem...

[Kantaki]

I always figured the Bag of Devouring was invented by a father with that problem...

What do you mean "problem"?
That's a reason.
To open a restaurant.

[The MunchKING]

Of course if the one giant survived the fall then she has six shots as Mechane flies away.

Now THAT would be a surprising Plot Twist.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Question: had the ballistae been dropped earlier, could the Mechane have ascended far enough up for the giants to not be a threat?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question: had the ballistae been dropped earlier, could the Mechane have ascended far enough up for the giants to not be a threat?

It was implied they were at maximum height as it was - and this being a non-rigid lighter than air craft, I think that means that any higher would pop the balloon, rather than anything having to do with carry capacity.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

And Scoundrél is not even Spanish ("s+consonant" is not allowed at word start in Spanish), and if it were, say, Escoundrel, it would also not need an accent because, finishing in a consonant other than n or s, the implicit accent is on the final e.

Is English the only language where proper nouns aren't inherently expected to follow the grammatical rules of their language? (I mean, look at the McWhatever surnames—when else has a capital letter been in the middle of a word?)

Bandana has been on the Mechane since she was a kid. Being a kid, she probably investigated every nook and cranny she could find and asked anyone she could get hold off what everything did.

From her own words, she only knew of the release system because her parents told her about it (or possibly, discussed it while she was in the room).

If little Bandanna was anything like the kids I've known, there's a decent chance her parents told her about it when she was about to pull the lever.

[The MunchKING]

Is English the only language where proper nouns aren't inherently expected to follow the grammatical rules of their language? (I mean, look at the McWhatever surnames—when else has a capital letter been in the middle of a word?).

I'm not sure, but the way I understood it was those were 2 words in the original Irish names. Then they just ran them together into one word once they came over here. :D

[Xyril]

It was implied they were at maximum height as it was - and this being a non-rigid lighter than air craft, I think that means that any higher would pop the balloon, rather than anything having to do with carry capacity.

GW

That's not necessarily true. Remember, you can think of the airship as two parts, a heavier than air section with roughly constant mass and volume, and the lighter than air section with constant mass, but volume changing based on pressure (we'll neglect inward force from elasticity for now.) There are two practical height limits. The first is the limit of expansion of the balloon, as you mentioned. (Although, given the prevalence of magic and fantastical materials, it wouldn't surprise me if the balloon had substantial capacity for expansion. It might even be done in such a way that Roy's statement that it isn't magic may still be true.) The second limit is that at some point, the system density of the airship (total mass over total displacement) will equal the density of the air around it. This is due to the constant volume portion of the ship. The balloon (very roughly) and the air will have the same response to increasing altitude: As pressure decreases, volume increases at an inversely proportional right, and density decreases proportionally. However, the airship also has that other portion that comprises a large proportion of its mass, but does not increase in volume. Therefore, the airship won't decrease in density quite as fast as the balloon or the air does.

If the airship is primarily limited by the second consideration, tossing ballast overboard would absolutely increase the maximum height. If the airship is primarily limited by the first consideration, tossing ballast overboard might help, or it might not. At this point, it depends on what happens when the balloon reaches its limit. If it immediately fails by bursting, then exceeding the maximum height will obviously lead to catastrophic results. We'll call this a bad thing. However, this isn't how all materials work. Most will first experience a range where it remains intact, but doesn't expand as fast as it should. In this scenario, the density of the balloon will no longer decrease at the same rate as the air around it--it will decrease more slowly. If this is the limit on altitude, then again dropping weight from the ship will increase maximum altitude.

This of course presumes that the limit is based on the relationship between altitude and pressure. It's also possible that airships are limited by the altitude at which temperatures are cold enough to damage the balloon, or can't handle the jet stream or high altitude turbulence, or can't get too close to the clouds because a race of sky-dwelling celestial cats might puncture their balloons.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure, but the way I understood it was those were 2 words in the original Irish names. Then they just ran them together into one word once they came over here. :D

"Mac" meant "son of" and in some versions, was a separate, lowercase word.

So, you might have "Ian mac Donald"

Eventually, the two words got put together, as a single surname

"Ian MacDonald"

and sometimes the D became lowercase, or the Mac became Mc (generally not both though).

"Ian Macdonald"

"Ian McDonald"

[Cazero]

It was implied they were at maximum height as it was - and this being a non-rigid lighter than air craft, I think that means that any higher would pop the balloon, rather than anything having to do with carry capacity.

GW

The balloon will stop being lighter that surrounding gases in the upmost layer of the atmosphere and they will have to rely on lift alone to go higher way before the balloon is at risk of popping. And if they had the lift for that, they would quickly and painfuly realise the need for oxygen masks at such height. So don't worry about the balloon popping, they'll all be dead way before that point.

[factotum]

If the airship is primarily limited by the second consideration, tossing ballast overboard would absolutely increase the maximum height. If the airship is primarily limited by the first consideration, tossing ballast overboard might help, or it might not.

Both of these are correct, true, but I think Grey_Wolf_C's point is that the story we're shown implies the balloon popping is what limits their maximum height--otherwise, why would they not have considered dropping ballast to gain height when they're under attack in a narrow mountain pass, especially since Bandana was still in command at that point?

[Xyril]

Both of these are correct, true, but I think Grey_Wolf_C's point is that the story we're shown implies the balloon popping is what limits their maximum height--otherwise, why would they not have considered dropping ballast to gain height when they're under attack in a narrow mountain pass, especially since Bandana was still in command at that point?

They had no excess ballast at that point in the story. Consider what was dropped in the current strip.

1) The giants and their boulder.

During the ambush at the pass, these things weren't dead on the deck and thus couldn't have been dumped to gain altitude..

2) Unnamed heavy objects that served no purpose.

They had no other dead weight to drop. Since Bandanna has decided that getting over the ridge is important, I would guess that she wants to drop everything she can spare at this point. Logically, she would drop dead weight before dropping useful weight: Thus, she had Roy chuck over the giant corpses and the boulder, but she held on to the ballistae until the last moment, despite the fact that--as other astute commenters noted--dropping them before the attempt would have gotten them slightly more altitude. Presumably, if other dead weight existed, Bandanna would have ordered that dropped as well before dropping the weapons.

3) The ballistae

Dropping the ballistae would have been idiotic. At the time, they were being used to fight giants. We don't know the how high the altitude of the airship was with respect to the maximum effective range of the giants' magical and physical attacks. It is possible that gaining that amount of altitude might have yielded a tactical advantage that justified throwing away your entire (non-PC) offensive payload. It seems more likely that it would not. Keep in mind, the operating altitude of the airship is such that the mountains were high enough to be a physical barrier. The giants were shown to be able to hit the airship from a lower altitude. Thus, there was still some margin in which the giants could climb a bit higher and still hit the airship even if it had ascended a bit. Unless the altitude increase was substantial, I think the ship would still remain in range of the attacks.

What else would you suggest that they consider (and be shown conspicuously considering on panel?) Your reasoning doesn't track with me: By your logic, if a main character isn't depicted saying, "Maybe I can shoot him? Alas, I have no bullets. Nor a gun," that implies that he has a deep seated hatred for guns stemming from witnessing the brutal murder of his parents.

[Morquard]

Don't forget it took the jury-rigged engine boost AND the ballistae dropping to get over the ridge again. They gained what?... maybe 20 meters in height (and that's generous) from the ballistae themselves, most of it came from the engine boost.

I don't think in a valley full of giants a rise like that would have made a huge difference. In this situation it did, because it was literally the difference between "get over it or not" and getting over it was crucial.

[KorvinStarmast]

This being Julio Scoundrel's ship, it's entirely possible that the "jettison ballistae" levers only appear when they are needed, just in the nick of time, and that's why Andi would never have noticed them. Otherwise anyone aboard the Mechane might notice the levers and pull them as sabotage or stupidity.

This makes more sense than most other explanations.

I suddenly have this image of some kind of Elan figure accidentally wrecking Júlio's first ship.

Yeah.

I'm in "Engineering" at my job of five years, and I'm very much a "tunnel vision engineer".
When people ask where's such-and-such court or investigators office is my typical (and true) response is, "Sorry, I only know where the restrooms and shutoff valves are". Being very Andromeda-like myself I can very easily imagine Andi being too blinkered to know that aspect of the Mechane.

With the years I spent at sea, the engineers know the ship as well as, and often better than, the rest of the crew.

When I invent a Julio-like character, I plan to name him "Romeo Rascál".

Good plan, since if you called him Chacal the Sûreté might come after you.

This of course presumes that the limit is based on the relationship between altitude and pressure. It's also possible that airships are limited by the altitude at which temperatures are cold enough to damage the balloon, or can't handle the jet stream or high altitude turbulence, or can't get too close to the clouds because a race of sky-dwelling celestial cats might puncture their balloons.

Hmm, perhaps a Mr Scruffy origin story is being hidden in the analysis.

[Dr.Zero]

Both of these are correct, true, but I think Grey_Wolf_C's point is that the story we're shown implies the balloon popping is what limits their maximum height

If this was the issue, they could have just discharged some gas while they were dropping the ballistas (ie: discharge a tiny bit of gas, drop 1 ballista, check the balloon pressure, adjust calculations, repeat).

Discharging the gas would not reduce the maximum height, as long as it is done without reducing the final volume of the balloon (if anything, it would increase even more the maximum height, even if only by 1 millionth of inch).

I totally expect the balloon to have some valve, if not to insert the gas (who knows, maybe they conjure it so that it appears directly inside the balloon), at least to discharge some gas if an emergence arises.

Said all of that, of course no one can affirm with certainty that the additional height obtained would have been enough to avoid the boulders. Surely enough to avoid a little bunch of them (the additional height would have got the ship faster out of throwing range), but maybe the ballistas killed enough giants to overcompensate for it.

It's generally considered poor form to point out plot holes in the "classic works of literature" we analyze, no matter what terminology we use.

Now I won't be able to stop to imagine the USA as a place where what we call: "Critical analysis course" is renamed: "Very friendly and praising analysis course", where students... oh, well, where teachers and students act like in this "girls-only" school in this episode of The Simpsons.

[Shining Wrath]

The giants which were just tossed off the deck attacked from above. I do not think we saw a significant number of thrown rocks falling short; I don't remember any. The spellcaster didn't seem to be worried about spell range, either.

The most likely explanation for Bandana keeping the ballistae during the battle with the giants is that they were useful for killing giants while gaining a few meters or tens of meters in altitude was not very useful for avoiding the attacks of the giants.

[Rogar Demonblud]

"Mac" meant "son of" and in some versions, was a separate, lowercase word.

So, you might have "Ian mac Donald"

Eventually, the two words got put together, as a single surname

"Ian MacDonald"

and sometimes the D became lowercase, or the Mac became Mc (generally not both though).

"Ian Macdonald"

"Ian McDonald"

In retrospect, it would've been easier if we'd tossed an apostrophe in there like we did when we converted the au- prefix to O'.

[drazen]

I'm trying to figure out where the rock on the deck even came from. We don't actually see it until strip #1066, as far as I can tell, but the rocks in the previous strip seemed to be hitting the bottom and sides of the airship.

It's on the wrong side of the deck to be likely to have broken off the mountain in #1065. No rocks come anywhere near the ship in #1059, #1060, #1061, #1062, #1063, or #1064. In #1058, two rocks are tossed at the ship, but one is too low and the other one's trajectory does not look like it could reach the deck either. In #1057, two hit the side; one goes very high, but does not look like it would land in the right place, if on the boat at all. No rocks in #1056; in #1055, a rock hits the side of the ship hard, but nothing reaches the deck. #1054 is just Belkar on the mountain. A few airborne rocks in #1053... maybe, but at best inconclusive. #1052 is just Haley fighting giants. In #1051, Roy runs down from the steering wheel and there does not seem to be a rock on the deck behind the unnamed pirate in the foreground, so it could not have landed on the ship in #1050, when they first came under attack.

While it is plausible a rock could land on the deck, why didn't we actually see this happen?

(because what's a forum without nitpicking?)

[Shining Wrath]

I'm trying to figure out where the rock on the deck even came from. We don't actually see it until strip #1066, as far as I can tell, but the rocks in the previous strip seemed to be hitting the bottom and sides of the airship.

It's on the wrong side of the deck to be likely to have broken off the mountain in #1065. No rocks come anywhere near the ship in #1059, #1060, #1061, #1062, #1063, or #1064. In #1058, two rocks are tossed at the ship, but one is too low and the other one's trajectory does not look like it could reach the deck either. In #1057, two hit the side; one goes very high, but does not look like it would land in the right place, if on the boat at all. No rocks in #1056; in #1055, a rock hits the side of the ship hard, but nothing reaches the deck. #1054 is just Belkar on the mountain. A few airborne rocks in #1053... maybe, but at best inconclusive. #1052 is just Haley fighting giants. In #1051, Roy runs down from the steering wheel and there does not seem to be a rock on the deck behind the unnamed pirate in the foreground, so it could not have landed on the ship in #1050, when they first came under attack.

While it is plausible a rock could land on the deck, why didn't we actually see this happen?

(because what's a forum without nitpicking?)

Because Elan is a rock star, obviously.