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2011-04-25, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
So in my current game I am having a hard tine explaining why metamagicbfeats are a good investment. I tried telling her that they add versitility to her list and make certain good spells great. I almost had her sold on quicken spell, until she saw the +4 spell level attached, and since she can't quicken anything yet, she opted no to. She is a lvl 7 tibbit dread necromancer, and the only metamagic feat she knows is natural spell (house ruled to allow spells in cat form for tibbits, still does not work while polymorphed). She can't figure out why anyone would want one aside from prc requirements. She is currently working on getting a slaymate purely for roleplay reasons. This is just really sad to me because I am not enforcing any cast time increases for spont casters, and she could atleast use extend or widen spell handily. Can someone help me explain to her she would want them?
My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
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2011-04-25, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Well a good start would be to point out that Silent and Still allow you to cast while gagged and bound, respectively. Or while trying to be noticed, so you can cast a spell like, say, Bestow Curse, and no one will know it was you. Also suggest Invisible spell, which doesn't have any adjustments to the spell level, and is loads of fun when used creatively.
Other people can better articulate the numerical advantages of the other metamagic feats.Last edited by Jallorn; 2011-04-25 at 12:26 AM.
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2011-04-25, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2005
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- Tacoma, WA
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Enervation. Level 4; 1d4 negative levels.
Energy Drain. Level 9; 2d4 negative levels.
Split Ray Enervation. Level 6; 2d4 negative levels.
See where I'm going? There are many things like this.I will NOT succumb to evil!...Unless she's cute._____________
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2011-04-25, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
More power!
Granted the PH metamagic feats are not the greatest. Not that they are not good, but they lack flashyness. It can be nice for some spells to last a little longer sometimes, but it does not often look like it's worth all them spell levels.
But how about offering her the metamagic feats from Libris Mortis? Look at the Fell metamagic feats. Fell animate is great for a Necromancer type, for example.
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2011-04-25, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Still Spell will allow you to cast in armor without arcane spell failure.
Last edited by Sacrieur; 2011-04-25 at 12:43 AM.
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2011-04-25, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-04-25, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Dread Necromancers using quicken spell take a full round to cast their spells.
Most metamagic is useless without mitigation, or only useful at higher levels. Heighten Spell is great for sorcerers, that's about it. Quicken spell is good on wizards with 6th level spell slots.
In general, metamagic feats just aren't worth your feat slots unless you are high level, a sorcerer, or are abusing metamagic mitigation.
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2011-04-25, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Dread necromancer already has armored mage (light), and given she already has a decent dex I doubt she would even want to move up.
She's already going to a fair bit of effort to get a slaymate (which will be another post later), I would think that having any 1lvl metamagic feat would be a massive boon at that point (since slaymates reduce metamagic adjustment by 1).My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
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2011-04-25, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
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2011-04-25, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Oakdale, PA
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Tell her to grab any metamagic spell that only increases the level by 1 so that once she enters the PrC she can apply it to all of her spells free. Extend spell is a great one for buffs and debuffs, or even summons.
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2011-04-25, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Natural Spell is not a metamagic feat.
Wait, what prestige class are you referring to? I haven't seen anyone mention anything about prestige classes....
The metamagic reduction is coming from a slaymate, which is an undead creature from Libris Mortis.
Personally, I think not using metamagic is a perfectly valid option. Let her learn to play the game on her own. I don't see why it's even bothering you.
Anyway, if you want to give her advice on metamagic: Extend is pretty good if you cast buff spells. Empower (or maybe Widen) is good if you like blasting. Chain, Split Ray, and Quicken are great, but only when you're pretty high level. Fell Animate can be a lot of fun for a Necromancer, but you need to know when to use it.Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2011-04-25 at 01:58 AM.
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2011-04-25, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Explain it through the magic of baking!
"See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2011-04-25 at 02:28 AM.
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2011-04-25, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Uncanny Valley
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
I don't think you'll ever need more magic than the four free Suddens, as those may be applied to any spell at any moment, only once per day. You're a caster with limited spells per day anyway, so whatever.
The regular Still Spell is far too slot-expensive to use just to ignore the armor casting penalry. There are better feats for that, unless you really love Full Plate.
And regarding mitigation, what good sources of MM mitigation are there? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Thesis...MAKE LOVE, NOT SPAM!
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2011-04-25, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
SandShaper gives you 5 free sudden metamagics a day, with the ability to use them however you want. 5 maximize, 3 maximize 2 empowers, whatever. Good because you can use it in conjunction with orbs to get empowered maximized admixtured Orb of Fire/Lightning (with Born of the Three Thunders of course).
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2011-04-25, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Tell her that with circle magic, she becomes a near omnipotent spellcaster with the right feats. Course that's intentionally breaking the game, but if you're looking for more balance, it's an easy way to add metamagic without increasing spell level, and is available at lvl 10 if you work it right.
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2011-04-25, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
This, with some enormous exceptions here and there. I'm afraid that your player may actually have a good understanding of what's going on after all. I do like many of the MM items, and the athenaeum of boccob is a great way to get bang for your buck.
I think we're so used to MM mitigation that it's hard to remember a lot of people don't use it.Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-25 at 12:38 PM.
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
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2011-04-25, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
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2011-04-25, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
I dunno, without reducers or mitigations the analogy becomes more like:
"So, casting a spell is like baking cookies. Casting a quickened spell is like eating raw cookie dough - it's faster, but not as satisfying, and still takes all the ingredients. On the other hand, you can eat cookie dough while simultaneously cooking actual cookies in the oven.'NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-04-25, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-04-25, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
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2011-04-25, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- California, USA
Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
I find myself agreeing with KillianHawkeye. Why does it matter if she takes any metamagic? On top of the fact that the feats aren't in any way desirable for every caster ever, she is a dread necromancer. She has plenty of valid, strong feats to choose from.
If you really want to convince her that metamagic is a powerful option, then throw some NPCs at the party that use it. Use spells that she favors, except augmented, and see how she reacts.
Also, I baked cookies the other day, and they are delicious. As was the cookie dough.
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2011-04-25, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-04-25, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Canada
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
That's why you make snaps, and other eggless cookies.
Personally, though, I don't like gingersnaps. Chocolatesnaps? Now those are good.
See, eggless cookies are what you get with metamagic reducers, or +0 metamagic.Demilich avatar by Smuchmuch. Thank you VERY much!
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2011-04-25, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
One of the many benefits of Vegan Cookies.
On a more serious note, you guys may be right about not trying to force it on her. But there are a menagerie of reasons why she should aside from them being good.
A) Slaymate, she wants one for roleplay purposes, and they are useless in combat. Figure she should get something out of her effort.
B) She wants a PRC (though i don't think she wants a specific one), and auto-turns down ones that require metamagic.
C) Complaining about spell duration running out too soon.My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
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2011-04-25, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- San Jose, CA
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2011-04-25, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.
Or throw an extend rod into the treasure. :|
With MM reducers, it's like working in a patisserie. You can make a truly stunning number of cookies at a time, but you're either going to start to hate cookies really fast or discover that there's stiff competition in the pastry market.Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-25 at 03:42 PM.
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
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2011-04-25, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.