What is the best Summoning class?

[Sasori]

What is the best summoner in terms of best summons or number of summons or a multiclass or hybird class of summoners to make the best summoner?

[GPuzzle]

Druid. Why? Because you can get instinctive summons - who acts on their own.

In other words, someone that doesn't eat your actions, so it doubles the amount of control you can have.

[Dimers]

Wizard class gets honorable mention. Their summons aren't inherently better than an invoker's or a psion's, but between tome use and paragon paths, they have more ways to improve their summons than other classes do.

[Kurald Galain]

Druid. Why? Because you can get instinctive summons - who acts on their own.

Druid or wizard, because they both have summons that act on their own (for druids these are called "instinctive" actions, for the wizard they're "intrinsic" but the principle is the same). Just avoid the summons from the Arcane Power splat and take those from Dragon magazine instead.

Plus note that wizard feats like Elemental Empowerment also work on all your summons.

[Sasori]

Oh cool so out of those 2 which one has more or better summons are they equal also what about psion and shaman? i know shaman uses a spirti animal to do stuff for them also is there some kind of good hybird i could do thanks guys

[Dimers]

Summons are basically always daily powers, which means everybody can get the same number of them per day. You should take a summoning paragon path if you want to get the most uses per day, because the capstone power will give one you can't get otherwise. Also, look into ways to recharge daily attack powers -- there aren't many, but they do exist.

Shaman use mainly conjurations, not summonings. There are lots of differences, but the biggest is that the summoning produces a creature while a conjuration is just an effect, a force, not something that thinks or perceives. That can be a little hard to take, because the shaman's spirit companion is often flavored as being aware of its environment -- but by RAW it isn't.

Artificer, shaman, druid, wizard, invoker and psion can all hybrid together well or decently, and warlock could hybrid with artificer, wizard and psion. None of these combinations will be good for summoning -- maybe not BAD, but not as good as one base class by itself. That's pretty much the nature of hybridization. Unless you're looking for some synergy there's just no other way to get, hybridization is usually a poor idea that will leave you less satisfied than some simple reflavoring.

[Sasori]

Ikr all the sumoning spells are daily but yeah i see what your saying cool anything else

[Epinephrine]

Artificer has some decent summons, including utility summons (healing figurine, diminutive bodyguard) and a few summons that while they lack instinctive actions do have minor action attacks (dancing weapon, animate arbalester). So a Wizard/Artificer has summoning powers on both sides, and uses the same attack stat.

[Sasori]

Were only using player handbooks 1-3 plsu al the power books so were not using artificer :/

[Tegu8788]

Based on some statements, I'm gonna guess you're new to 4e. If not, well, the advice still stands. Minion master builds is one of the things that 4e is not good at. That is the point of most summoner builds, to get a bunch of monsters on the field to fight for/with you.

Wizard has tons of support, and so it's got good summon powers and feats. There is a Druid subclass basically focused it's summons.


So, I'm gonna ask if you specifically want Summons, or if you want to have multiple characters under your command at a time. Now, if you just want to have a bunch of stuff on the board, there is a very complex hybrid build gets a ton of stuff out. Sentinel|Ranger/Shaman, with a Fey Beast Tamer theme. It takes a few feats, Hybrid Talent for the Beastmaster pet, MC Shaman, preferably a second Shaman MC to get the heal. You end up, at least for Heroic, as a Twin Striking Leader, with 4 pets out (each with it's own set of rules) that you can then increase with Daily Summons. Don't take any Beast Ranger powers, just focus on Twin Strike and buffs. I'd suggest Dex/Con, using a bow.

Now, this isn't a good build, but it can work. You stand back and let your pets make OAs for you. If you have a Warlord or attack granter, they will love you for giving them so many options.



But if you are limited to the player handbooks, well, Wizard is probably your best bet. I don't think the druid can online until later.

[Sasori]

i kind of want want mutlie "characters" instead of summons like u said but yeah were limited to player book 1-3 and all the power books

[Tegu8788]

If you can pick up Heroes of the Feywild, that would be all you need to make the Wall of Fur. It has the Theme that gets you a pet, and the Sentinel class to pick up another.

[Sasori]

Wow i didnt know they had these books can someone give me a list of all or most of the books that have classes, races, and or extra abilitys(ex: divine power)

[Tegu8788]

No problem.

[Sasori]

Ok so can someone give me a complete build of the "best" summon class setup? also maybe with abilites?

[Tegu8788]

No, because there isn't a "best" summoner for what you are looking for. There are ones that aren't really bad, but none that people would call great. The "strongest" is the one I explained above, will get you the most pieces on the board. I threw a Dwarf together, Dex 18, Con/Wis 16.

Or you could dump the Ranger side entirely and play as a Controller, picking regular Druid spells. I'm not certain how many Ranger powers there are that don't include To-Hit lines. That may actually be even stronger, in a less MAD sense. Really, you need to play around.

[Inevitability]

Also, if you are looking for a 'wall of flesh' build, then a Beastmaster Ranger|Sentinel druid with Fey Beast Tamer and Multiclass Shaman can get 4 permanent companions on the field and 1 optional summon. At 1st level.

[Epinephrine]

Also, if you are looking for a 'wall of flesh' build, then a Beastmaster Ranger|Sentinel druid with Fey Beast Tamer and Multiclass Shaman can get 4 permanent companions on the field and 1 optional summon. At 1st level.

If you go this route you would benefit from pairing up with a leader who provides bonus attacks to "all allies" and such, and to powers/feats that offer bonuses for the number of allies present. The Spirit Companion doesn't count, but I believe the other three are all considered allies, as are summons.

[Sasori]

Nice il have to look that stuff up any other tings or options (btw thanks guys for all the help)

[Sasori]

Oh yeah also do you guys think this "class" or combination of classes is op having 4 pets?

[Tegu8788]

No. Nothing about it is any kinda of "op" except for "low." It just isn't a good strategy in 4e to try and have lots of minions, because outside of specific dailies, they all require you spend an action to give them an action. They don't get their own turns or anything. They can't even take OAs without your command.

It's kinda like asking what's the best way to get an apple inside an orange peel. There are ways to do it, but none of them are great, and no one would think it was a real orange.

[Epinephrine]

Oh yeah also do you guys think this "class" or combination of classes is op having 4 pets?

No.

For the most part, you are very limited in what you can do with it. You take up a lot of terrain, but you don't get to make attacks with all of them all the time. You may get a few extra Opportunity attacks off, and you can soak a bit of extra damage, but your powers aren't going to be the greatest. The only way you can optimise for this is going to be by having things that grant bonuses based on numbers of allies, or that grant allies attacks. Since your class choices don't really offer that, you're going to rely on others providing it.

Having a warlord in the party is nice, but are any of the critters going to hit better than a striker? No. So unless the Warlord grants more attacks than there are hard hitters, your animals aren't going to be taking extra shots. A power like Hail of Steel that allows all allies within 5 to make a basic attack as a free action could work, since I believe from the last discussion about this that the Sentinel Animal Companion and the Fey Beast Tamer companion both specifically have wording that they have their own free actions, which means that they can take a free action MBA if granted one. The ranger companion doesn't have this, but it wouldn't be ridiculous to extend it to it. Enough of that kind of power and it could start getting strong. One of the White Raven features for example increases the healing or THP from any power by 2 for each ally within 2 squares. Feats, features, and powers that are keyed on number of allies could make it a better choice.

[Sasori]

Wait i thought u said these have their own actions if im wrong plz excuse me for my ignorance. :c i started kinda playing 2 years ago but now me and 2 other friends are going to do a new game and im looking more in depth now before i just used player handbook 1

[Dimers]

Oh yeah also do you guys think this "class" or combination of classes is op having 4 pets?

Oh good god no. You still only get one attack action per round, you're extremely vulnerable to area damage, and none of the pets is nearly as valuable as PCs are. The main advantage to the Wall Of Fur is just having more places to make an opportunity attack from -- and they're not even very good OAs.

Healing multiple allies with second wind is nice if you have some way to make second wind not waste a standard action, and moving multiple allies with a single move action supports the primary function of making OAs from several spots at once. But those factors just make the build less bad rather than making it something good.

The metagame of the Wall Of Fur is also problematic. Your turn takes longer to run than anybody else's and there's tons more bookkeeping and fiddly little things to remember.

I can tell you from first-hand experience -- I am, right now, playing a Sentinel Druid fey beast tamer multiclassed to shaman for three persistent pets, and my first-level druid daily is a summon. I'm easy to please; I like my character and build. But I admit it's nothing close to optimal.

Wait i thought u said these have their own actions if im wrong plz excuse me for my ignorance.

Some wizard and druid daily-power summons do take their own actions if you don't direct them with a standard action, but the persistent allies in the Wall Of Fur don't get their own attack actions.

[Tegu8788]

To double down, only very specific daily powers call out a pet with its own actions, which only sticks around for one fight or five minutes, whichever is shorter. Your regular guys, just take up space. It's handy if you need to bottleneck a large area, but that's about it.

The pure sentinel losses a pet, but has better features, and can use Druid control spells to help hassle. If there were only two people playing a game I'd recommend a Wall of Fur, but that's about it. With a normal party, it's just not very powerful.

Fun, is something else. I'm playing with Dimer's beast master, and it's a ton of fun, but combat is tough. Being play by post, everyone takes a few hours to take their turn, so his isn't as bad as it would be at a table.

[Sasori]

Hm...ok with this knowledge i dont think i will go summoner quote on quote so im just going to think of another class or style of play i like thanks guys :D

[Tegu8788]

That's a wise idea. Feel free to start a new thread or post more in this one about what you want. Almost anything can be done in 4e. Just not the minion master.

[Edge of Dreams]

The best summoner I ever played was a Druid with the Swarm feature from Primal Power. I took a summoning focused Paragon Path and every daily summon I could get my hands on. With the right combination of feats from the PHBs and Primal Power, I had the following effects:

-Damage resistance while wildshaped into a swarm of bugs
-Gain 10 temp HP when changing shape back to human form (or whatever my normal race was, I don't remember)
-Shift 1 square for free every time I change shape
-Give one of my summons a command to move or take a minor action every time I change shape.

The other part of this strategy was to take an equal number of ranged/aoe spell-casty type at-will/encounter powers and melee/aoe wildshape at-will/encounter powers. Rather than choose one form to stay in all the time, I would start the fight by summoning something, then proceed to switch forms every turn. I could pop in and out of melee range, keep my summon(s) perfectly positioned, be unusually tanky for a controller, and always have a good power to attack with. I would almost never command my summon(s) to attack; I just relied on the Instinct attacks. With good positioning, you don't usually have to worry about them Instinctively attacking the wrong target.

Also, once you get enough daily summons, it's easy to use an Action Point on the first round of the fight to get two summons out immediately.

EDIT TO ADD: The other fun part of this was the DM let me re-flavor every one of my daily summons into being some kind of giant insect, so I had the consistent theme of being a swarm of bugs that summons and controls even bigger bugs.

[tcrudisi]

The Wall of Fur build isn't OP. Its also not a build I'd recommend someone begin the game with. Each of those companions acts a little bit differently and it can be difficult keeping them all separate.

However - a straight Druid summoner works pretty well. Don't worry about Sentinel; just go Druid. If themes are allowed, go ahead and splurge on Fey Beast Tamer. That way you can have one permanent companion out at all times. Fire Hawk is a decent at-will "summon" (not really a summon) that only sticks around for one round, but that'll re-flavor easily into the build. And you can choose a summon at each daily level. And those daily summons each have an instinctive action so they'll act on their own.

In other words: its actually a pretty good damage-dealing build. Choose Predator Druid since that's the striker-secondary Druid role. You can do pretty good control and pretty good damage at the same time. Nothing earth-shattering in either one, but it does both well enough. Its a fine addition to any team.

If you are new to 4e but experienced with previous editions, don't get hung up on what's powerful. That's not necessary in this game. Play something that looks like it would be fun. Each role does its job well. If you hated healers in previous editions, try out a healer. They seriously don't suck in this game. By that, I mean they are fun to play. You don't waste your turn healing in this game, so it ends up being, "I heal Jim-Bob ... and now I move behind the monster and knee-cap it in the face." The other roles are fun, too. Defenders can actually defend, strikers do solid damage, and controllers make the DM cry.

[GPuzzle]

Also, give a spin to the Enabler instead of the Healer - in other words, make your allies attack more, oftentimes with you too.