Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey,

Do you want me to write up those Inc/SB binds by chakra also, or are you beyond the point of no return on that?

I already have them written up, I just need to put them in a table (or maybe a list would be easier?) I guess.

Go ahead, you're much further along than I am.

Actually... how about this. You get that information in a new post, since the top post is nearly capped on characters, and I'll just go ahead and link it. That way, we've got two resources "Basic information", and "Meldshapes and what they do".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Updated with a full list of all binds by class and slot linked in the OP.

[Psyren]

Also, you may want to consider adding the Soul Manifester for PrCs. Because of the trickiness of the Ardent, I'd say it's a far better choice than the Soul Caster.

This. Not only is Ardent a better fit due to their odd method of power acquisition, but you also get Wis synergy that a normal arcane caster would most likely lack.


Also, some commentary on the Incarnum spells, powers and invocations would be greatly appreciated. I know that the "Open Chakra" line is great because it saves casters and manifesters precious feats (each of these spells/powers has a 24 hr. duration, so they can be cast just before bedtime and all the relevant melds shaped and binded in the morning) but I'm not 100% on the others.

I will point out that the Soul Crystal power (MoI pgs. 107-108) is very open to abuse. In summary - you create a crystal, load it up with power points and a power you know, and whoever you give it to can manifest it and even augment it as though they were a psion with your ML at the time of creation, regardless of their own class. Some notes on this power:

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- It has no XP cost or even essentia requirement, so the only limits on this power are the number of PP you possess. It also lasts hours/level, meaning you can make a bunch of crystals at bedtime with your remaining PP, and hand them out in the morning (particularly if you Extend them, and/or temporarily boost your ML before creation.)

- There is no restriction on the power you crystallize - meaning you can pass around even powers with a range of personal for your party members to use, like Metamorphosis, Time Regression, Adapt Body, Psionic Contingency, Personal Mind Blank etc. You can even craft crystals of discipline-only powers, or powers that come from another manifesting class you possess or from your repertoire (if you're an Erudite.)

- By RAW, manifesting a power from the crystal is always a standard action. This is bad news for swift powers like Catfall and Temporal Acceleration, but very good news for slow powers like True Mind Switch, Identify, Psychic Chirurgery, and even Genesis. Yes, you heard right - standard action Genesis.

- The crystal persists either until the duration expires or until the PP contained within it are used up. You can imbue each crystal with PP = twice your ML, regardless of the cost of the power itself. This means that many crystals can be used multiple times per day.

- There are no restrictions on who can use the crystal either; this includes your psicrystal, or even yourself. So you can use your PP up at bedtime making several of these crystals (extended if necessary) and start the adventuring day with a ton of bonus PP; you can even boost your ML with techniques like Overchannel and the crystals will capture the bonus PP.

I think I'll add this bad boy to the psionic tricks handbook.

[The Random NPC]

Item completion items such as wands take the same action as the spell, e.g., wands of a swift action spell take a swift action to use. I don't remember if those crystals would be under the same ruling, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have them do so.

[Psyren]

Item completion items such as wands take the same action as the spell, e.g., wands of a swift action spell take a swift action to use. I don't remember if those crystals would be under the same ruling, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have them do so.

They're not spell/power completion items though - they are unique temporary constructions. I agree that it's reasonable to apply the casting time ruling to them, but by RAW it doesn't. There isn't even a clause to say "these function like power stones, except..." that would let you grandfather it in.

[gorfnab]

One more Incarnum prestige class to add to the list is Thief of Life from Faiths of Eberron.

[The Random NPC]

They're not spell/power completion items though - they are unique temporary constructions. I agree that it's reasonable to apply the casting time ruling to them, but by RAW it doesn't. There isn't even a clause to say "these function like power stones, except..." that would let you grandfather it in.

I was afraid that would be the case, but couldn't resist showing off. Especially about such an awesome rule.

[NineThePuma]

Incarnum and E6?

How well does Incarnum's balance hold then?

[Big Fau]

Incarnum and E6?

How well does Incarnum's balance hold then?

It ends up making the Incarnate far worse, as you cut out half of their best tricks and force them into the UMD route.

Totemist, however, only misses out on the Manticore Belt. And they can get that trick back.


E6 is the final nail in the coffin for the Soulborn. The class becomes worse than the CW Samurai at that point.

[NineThePuma]

Good to know. Thanks.

(Also: my usual policy on D&D classes is "If it has 'Soul' in the name, don't bother with it. WotC clearly has issues with Souls.)

[Zaq]

Good to know. Thanks.

(Also: my usual policy on D&D classes is "If it has 'Soul' in the name, don't bother with it. WotC clearly has issues with Souls.)

Exception: Ironsoul Forgemaster. That class is pretty sweet. Not an auto-pick, but nothing to be ashamed of. I'm playing one right now, and it's awesome.

Also, Favored Souls are pretty awesome. They're weaker than Clerics, but they're still T2.

I think it's just the Soulknife and Soulborn that are giving the whole thing a bad name. Granted, they do a really good job of giving it a bad name . . .

It ends up making the Incarnate far worse, as you cut out half of their best tricks and force them into the UMD route.

Totemist, however, only misses out on the Manticore Belt. And they can get that trick back.


E6 is the final nail in the coffin for the Soulborn. The class becomes worse than the CW Samurai at that point.

Actually, I'm playing an E6 Incarnate 5 / ISFM 1 right now, and I don't have too many complaints. If I choose to make them so, my defenses are unbeatable (especially with energy resistance and DR . . . remember, having DR/Magic at those levels either means you're not taking damage, or you're getting extra loot, since not everything automatically has +1 swords). I do have to work a little bit harder if I want to do something other than defend, but my skillmonkey abilities are pretty strong, and while I pale in comparison to the Crusader, I can be pretty nasty with my Incarnate Weapon or my Lightning Gauntlets. Also, having lots of feats to get lots of instances of Shape Soulmeld is awesome.

[MeeposFire]

Exception: Ironsoul Forgemaster. That class is pretty sweet. Not an auto-pick, but nothing to be ashamed of. I'm playing one right now, and it's awesome.

Also, Favored Souls are pretty awesome. They're weaker than Clerics, but they're still T2.

I think it's just the Soulknife and Soulborn that are giving the whole thing a bad name. Granted, they do a really good job of giving it a bad name . . .



Actually, I'm playing an E6 Incarnate 5 / ISFM 1 right now, and I don't have too many complaints. If I choose to make them so, my defenses are unbeatable (especially with energy resistance and DR . . . remember, having DR/Magic at those levels either means you're not taking damage, or you're getting extra loot, since not everything automatically has +1 swords). I do have to work a little bit harder if I want to do something other than defend, but my skillmonkey abilities are pretty strong, and while I pale in comparison to the Crusader, I can be pretty nasty with my Incarnate Weapon or my Lightning Gauntlets. Also, having lots of feats to get lots of instances of Shape Soulmeld is awesome.

soulbows are nifty as well. Heck how many prcs can improve your BAB with a class ability while also granting you bab by leveling as normal?

[Big Fau]

Actually, I'm playing an E6 Incarnate 5 / ISFM 1 right now, and I don't have too many complaints. If I choose to make them so, my defenses are unbeatable (especially with energy resistance and DR . . . remember, having DR/Magic at those levels either means you're not taking damage, or you're getting extra loot, since not everything automatically has +1 swords). I do have to work a little bit harder if I want to do something other than defend, but my skillmonkey abilities are pretty strong, and while I pale in comparison to the Crusader, I can be pretty nasty with my Incarnate Weapon or my Lightning Gauntlets. Also, having lots of feats to get lots of instances of Shape Soulmeld is awesome.

Yeah, but you are pretty much just a big pile of numbers. You lose out on things like the Apparition Ribbon's bind effect, for example. Over half of the soulmelds in the book have Binds that you'll never get to use, but you'll still have the basic soulmeld itself.

[Zaq]

Yeah, but you are pretty much just a big pile of numbers. You lose out on things like the Apparition Ribbon's bind effect, for example. Over half of the soulmelds in the book have Binds that you'll never get to use, but you'll still have the basic soulmeld itself.

Well, everyone who has anything to lose loses things from E6. That's kind of the point. You only have the cosmic powah, not the phenomenal cosmic powah. Poor Wizzy has to make do with Fireball instead of Orb of Fire. (OK, we both know he's using Unicorn Arrows instead, but that's so not the point.)

I'd disagree about the "pile of numbers." While that's a big part of it, there's also some unique or hard-to-get stuff you can pull out of soulmelds and low-level binds. The Cerulean Sandals alone have come up way more than I ever expected them to, and they're hardly alone. Plus, some of the numbers are numbers that not just anyone can get . . . like noticeably high SR. Or DR/Alignment.

Incarnates are solid in E6. They're not the SotAO Mystic Wildshape Ranger, sure, but that isn't and shouldn't be the standard baseline.

[Psyren]

I was afraid that would be the case, but couldn't resist showing off. Especially about such an awesome rule.

It's broken even if you rule they work like power stones/scrolls where manifesting time is concerned. Using this power, any psion/wilder with enough PP can get Personal range buffs onto the entire party (Metamorphosis, Expansion, Temporal Acceleration, you name it) and they can even be augmented as necessary. The fact that they store your enough PP to be used multiple times is icing on the cake; a potion of Time Stop or Shapechange is bad enough, let alone one that can be drunk twice per day.

[Person_Man]

Incarnum and E6?

How well does Incarnum's balance hold then?

My personal experience is that Incarnum is very strong in E6:

• You can add soulmelds with Feats.
• You can add essentia with Feats.
• You can open the Crown, Feet, or Hands chakra with a Feat at level 6. Many DM's rule that this gives you an extra chakra bind.
• 6 HD is when anyone gains +1 essentia capacity. So an Incarnate 3/Anything 3 has an essentia capacity of 3 for all of their Incarnate soulmelds (or 4 for a specific soulmeld if you take a Feat), and a Totemist 2/Anything 4 will have an essentia capacity of 3 for the soulmeld bound to their Totem chakra (or 4 with a Feat). And many Totemist soulmelds are very useful with no essentia at all. This makes them great multi-class options.
• You can change your soulmelds and binds every morning, and your essentia allocation as a Swift Action. So you're not locked into a single build or strategy.
• Like the Binder and ToB classes, you are a Tier 3 build that never runs out of resources. Although Tier 1-2 builds will be stronger, in E6 games they tend to run out of spells/power points after 2ish combats. And Tier 4-6 builds by definition have fewer resources.

So the mechanics of Incarnum are well suited to E6. I'm particularly fond of some combination of Incarnate 3 or 4, Totemist 2, War Soul 4 or 5, Binder 1 or 3, Swordsage 2, Crusader 2, and/or Warblade 2.

It's also worth reviewing some of the best low level soulmelds and chakra binds:

Incarnate (assuming a 3 point essentia investment for each):

• Astral Vembraces: DR 8/magic. Gains 2 Slam attacks when bound to Hands.
• Mantle of Flame: 4d6 retributive fire damage.
• Necrocarnum Circlet bound to Crown: Infinitely renewable Animate Dead. So you pretty much always have a 6HD or less creature as your minion/tackle dummy/trap disarmer/etc.
• Impulse Boots bound to Feet: Uncanny Dodge + Evasion + Ref Save bonus.
• Spellward Shirt: Spell Resistance 19 (ie, 65% magic resistance assuming that the enemy caster has a caster level of 6).
• Mage's Spectacles or Elder Spirit: +10 to UMD checks (enough to auto-activate wands if you dip 1 level into any class with UMD).
• Acrobat Boots: +8 to Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist, and Jump (enough to auto-pass many Tumble checks if you dip 1 level into any class with Tumble, and very handy for escaping Grapples).

Totemist:

• Claws of the Wyrm: Gain 2 claw attacks. Dragon Magic.
• Chaos Roc's Span: Gain 2 wing buffet attacks. Dragon Magazine 350 pg 87.
• Dragon Tail: Gain a tail attack.
• Rageclaws or Blood Talons: Die Hard, which is very useful at level 1-2.
• Gorgon Mask bound to Totem: Gain a Trample attack. VERY useful at level 2, when a Trample is capable of killing most enemies. Not as useful at level 6.
• Girallon Arms bound to Totem: 4 Claws. Rend when bound to Arms.
• Sphinx Claws bound to Hands: Adds Pounce with all natural weapons.
• Basalisk Mask bound to Totem: Flesh to Stone at will. (1 round duration).
• Blink Shirt bound to Totem: Move Action Dimension Door at will. (Very handy when combined with Standard Action Tome of Battle maneuvers.

Soulborn (assuming 2 point essentia investment):

• Thunderstep Boots bound to Feet: 3d4 bonus to Charge damage, damaged enemies must Save or be Stunned on Charge.
• Mauling Gauntlets: +6 to all Str checks (Trip, Bull Rush, etc).

Soulborns also have access to some of the more useful Incarnate soulmelds as well, though at reduced capacity unless you're using a homebrew fix.

[lunar2]

It's been awhile since i read this book, but IIRC, there are 2 ways to get a lot of attacks per round with MoI.

1. totemist, with double chakra for the totem chakra, allows chimera (mask?) and girallon arms for 3 bites as primary natural weapons, and 4 claws as secondary.

2. a half dragon skarn gets 5 natural weapon attacks, two of which (the spines) are primary. going into spinemeld warrior, and having a high initial dex (or a wizard girlfriend, or getting lucky with a deck of many things) can get up to 10 attacks per round. i DM'ed a campaign with one of these, and one of the other players threatened to quit when he heard the fighter was going to have 5 attacks at level 4. i had to point out that said fighter would also only have 14 hitpoints, making him squishier than a wizard, with about the same damage output.

also, an incarnate or totemist with a vow of poverty can do some real damage, being completely independent of magic items for offense or defense.

[Godskook]

1. totemist, with double chakra for the totem chakra, allows chimera (mask?) and girallon arms for 3 bites as primary natural weapons, and 4 claws as secondary.

Threefold mask of the Chimera, by RAW, only grants 1 attack if you're combining it with other forms of natural attacks(Also, technically, one of them is a gore attack). The combo just doesn't work.

2. a half dragon skarn gets 5 natural weapon attacks, two of which (the spines) are primary. going into spinemeld warrior, and having a high initial dex (or a wizard girlfriend, or getting lucky with a deck of many things) can get up to 10 attacks per round. i DM'ed a campaign with one of these, and one of the other players threatened to quit when he heard the fighter was going to have 5 attacks at level 4. i had to point out that said fighter would also only have 14 hitpoints, making him squishier than a wizard, with about the same damage output.

1.A half dragon skarn may not attack with both claw and spine in the same round, as per the Skarn's racial feature for the spines.

2.The attack benefit from Spinemeld warrior prevents you from attacking with anything other than spines. Without this benefit, you may only attack with one of your spines in any given round.

3.The normal Totemist build that I use can hit 7 attacks by level 2(with a flaw), and still have HD = ECL, and considering Girallon Arms sets a fairly easy 4 attack standard, hitting 5 by level 5 is childs play for anyone wanting that sort of thing.

[Psyren]

Can we get Soul Manifester added to the OP? They can open their other chakras with powers, work great with Ardent (I assume), and have easy access to all the standard psycarnum shenanigans, so I expect them to at least have an edge on Soulcaster if not being better than Sapphire Hierarch.

[Essence_of_War]

Can we get Soul Manifester added to the OP? They can open their other chakras with powers, work great with Ardent (I assume), and have easy access to all the standard psycarnum shenanigans, so I expect them to at least have an edge on Soulcaster if not being better than Sapphire Hierarch.

Agreed on the soul mnifestr assessment.
Side question following up on the totemist natural attacks. Does a warforged's natural slam stack with the claws granted by girallon arms? If so, girallon arms+lamia belt+bluesteel bracers+warforged seems like an easy way to get 7 attacks with a ton of bonus damage (bracers from a 2 level incarnate dip obviously)

[lunar2]

Threefold mask of the Chimera, by RAW, only grants 1 attack if you're combining it with other forms of natural attacks(Also, technically, one of them is a gore attack). The combo just doesn't work.



1.A half dragon skarn may not attack with both claw and spine in the same round, as per the Skarn's racial feature for the spines.

2.The attack benefit from Spinemeld warrior prevents you from attacking with anything other than spines. Without this benefit, you may only attack with one of your spines in any given round.

3.The normal Totemist build that I use can hit 7 attacks by level 2(with a flaw), and still have HD = ECL, and considering Girallon Arms sets a fairly easy 4 attack standard, hitting 5 by level 5 is childs play for anyone wanting that sort of thing.

like i said, i don't remember all this perfectly, it's been a while since i read the book.

@claw/spine. spine is arm, and claw is hand. every campaign i've been involved with (player and dm) has allowed both spines and both claws per full attack action, because

1. they are technically different body parts.

2. the spines face backwards, towards the elbow.

the logic was that you would swing your arm forward with the claws, and then slash with the spines on the way back.

@spinemeld warrior. really? i just thought it treated the spine as a light manufactured weapon, instead of a natural weapon. of course, you couldn't use the spine if as a weapon if you were holding something in that hand or using a shield, because it was too cumbersome, but i didn't remember it saying you couldn't combine it with natural weapon attacks at all.

@flaws i've never been involved with a campaign that allowed them.

@threefold mask. what would be the point of binding that meld, then? I'd rather go with the lamia one, since it gives 2 claws on the feet.

anyway, i guess we both agree that Incarnum has some good ways to get a lot of extra attacks per round.

[Godskook]

@claw/spine. spine is arm, and claw is hand. every campaign i've been involved with (player and dm) has allowed both spines and both claws per full attack action, because

1. they are technically different body parts.

2. the spines face backwards, towards the elbow.

the logic was that you would swing your arm forward with the claws, and then slash with the spines on the way back.

The racial feature explicitly calls out that you are not allowed to "attack with his spines and a weapon wielded by the same arm in the same round".

No logical wrap arounds for that.

@spinemeld warrior. really? i just thought it treated the spine as a light manufactured weapon, instead of a natural weapon. of course, you couldn't use the spine if as a weapon if you were holding something in that hand or using a shield, because it was too cumbersome, but i didn't remember it saying you couldn't combine it with natural weapon attacks at all.

Sadly, that is the case.

@flaws i've never been involved with a campaign that allowed them.

To each their own, I guess, but really, some sort of heavier feat 'plan' should be used in any game, cause you're not really getting enough by core RAW.

@threefold mask. what would be the point of binding that meld, then? I'd rather go with the lamia one, since it gives 2 claws on the feet.

There's a lot of strictly inferior soulmelds out there, and the biggest reason for most of them existing is chakra space combinations. Chimera is the singular chakra that can occupy your soul chakra as a Totemist. This means it has no binding conflicts when you bind it to your Totem, where as Girallon still takes your Arm chakra away from you.

[Ssalarn]

Is there anybody out there still using this subsystem in their home games?

[NineThePuma]

Occasionally. Not always, but I almost always pick it up if it's an option.

[Nightraiderx]

If I ever get around to completing the level 30 epic character, he will be using many of the spells and has incarnate and a totemist dip. Going to be persisting the Incarnum Apotheosis spell.

[Particle_Man]

I await the campaign that will let me play a Cleric 3/Incarnate 1/Sapphire Hierarch 10.

[Chronos]

If I were allowed to use incarnum, I would gladly take one level of Incarnate, probably followed by 3 of Umbral Disciple, on any rogue build. I would not, however, allow it if I were DMing (my objections mostly being on fluff grounds).

[Ssalarn]

So, if a company, like say Dreamscarred, were to re-imagine a similar system with similar mechanics for a release similar to Path of War, it seems like there'd be some interest?

[Psyren]

So, if a company, like say Dreamscarred, were to re-imagine a similar system with similar mechanics for a release similar to Path of War, it seems like there'd be some interest?

By all accounts they are working on a conversion. (The answer of course would be yes.)

Now if only someone would pick up the Truenamer. Kyeudo's fix is excellent but I for one suck at the whole sanitization part, where you make it different enough from WotC's version to avoid a lawsuit yet still recognizable.

[Ssalarn]

Truenamer would be an interesting one; honestly I think if someone was going to rework that one they'd be better off completely retooling the mechanics and keeping the basic fluff (which Wizards can't claim copyright on; Ursula K. LeGuin, Patrick Rothfuss, and other authors have made that a fantasy genre staple, and LeGuin's Earthsea predates anything Wizards did in that field by a substantial amount). Truenamer had a ton of good ideas but so-so execution.

Actually kind of like MoI in that regard.....

What were people's least favorite things about Magic of Incarnum? I feel like the primary complaint I've heard is about the way the system focused players to choose between their lot and their class abilities. Were there any other major complaints that anyone here is aware of?