"Snips, Snails, & Dragon Tales" Discussion - Poll + Unmarked Spoilers

[Delcor]

I loved the entire book, great job Rich. The allegories were well done, the art was fantastic, the humor was unbeatable.

[MoonCat]

A question for the Giant, does the StickTales part count as canon? Canon for the main continuity I mean? The Order did actually sit around and tell stories and make fun of Belkar?

[The Giant]

A question for the Giant, does the StickTales part count as canon? Canon for the main continuity I mean?

The framing device scenes? Absolutely. At least as much as anything counts as canon around here.

Sidenote: I had originally placed Gannji and Enor among the background spectators of the final duel of Hamlet, and then I remembered that at the point the stories were being told, they hadn't met them yet. Whoops.

[MoonCat]

Ah, thank you. Great to know. To the WMG-mobile!

[Whiffet]

Wait, the framing device in StickTales is canon? But near the end of DStP in a bonus strip

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Belkar references Hamlet while speaking to Hinjo.

Yet the StickTales makes it quite clear that the story is unfamiliar to the characters. Clearly this is a major clue to what will happen later in the story! It must point to the true nature of the world in the rift!

Whatever is going on, it certainly isn't just a line from Belkar that was supposed to be funny. It's not like this comic uses pop culture references for jokes or anything.

[The Giant]

Wait, the framing device in StickTales is canon? But near the end of DStP in a bonus strip

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Belkar references Hamlet while speaking to Hinjo.

Like I said:

At least as much as anything counts as canon around here.

I spent a good deal of time trying to figure out if I could retcon or explain that Hamlet joke from DStP away, and in the end decided that I didn't care enough about continuity between two print-only bonus content strips to not do the Hamlet StickTale. Not when I've already made a mess of whether the Dragon strips are the same continuity as the regular ones.

[Whiffet]

Awww, I was just joking around. I didn't mean for that to be taken seriously. I'm sorry.

[ZMikeSner]

Julio Scoundrel- I loved the art style used there. It was different and familiar at the same time. The story was funny, the jokes were great, I'd love to see more.

Dragon Magazine Strips- All just as funny as I remember, and the bonus ones were great! I loved the observation of deep and dark defining living underground

Edition Wars- Contained many of my favorite jokes, but I thought the ending was a tad weak. I think this should stay a one time deal, but I'd read any future installments you might do.

StickTales- Hamlet was by far my favorite. Xykon's character traits added to Claudius...god that was hilarious. Favorite thing in this book:

"You married her like a week after my father died in his sleep."

"Sorta fast, don't you think?"

"YES!! Yes, I do in fact think it was "sorta fast.""

I was in stitches. I'd love to see more of these in the future, most definitely. Keep up the great work, Giant! I'll keep reading, as always!

[Sgt Pinback]

I think it would have to be another compilation with various bits thrown in. That has a certain charm, and there's something in it for everyone. Maybe that can contain something else entirely rather than the poll options? Surprise us!

I really enjoyed the dragon strips for pure gag-value, and the Stick Tales.

Julio Scoundrel I'm not entirely sure about; I think potentially he was misplaced at the start of the book - maybe people were impatient with him wanted to get to the OOTS material? Odd that despite the artwork he's more 2-dimensional than most of the regular characters. I think he has potential though if given something interesting to do.

The only thing I'm not particularly interested in is more 4e.

Of course I'll probably buy anything you put out, and I'd pay for full colour. I disliked the way this book was announced, however ("buy now or there's a chance you won't get it"), and I would prefer it if I could buy future books from my usual vendor again (who offers payment options other than giving our credit card details on the internet) rather than more Ookoodook exclusives.

[nli10]

Loved the new book - well worth shipping to the UK. Waiting just makes it more like Christmas. The surprise of getting the parcel with the book the day after the e-mail saying international orders may be a month away was great - I guess ordering the second I knew it was available put me at the head of the queue.


As in the Poll I liked the variety & I'd probably grab anything you sell! The 4th Ed. stuff was different and cool, but I'd be happy for you to wander off wherever your imagination & pencils take you. Even non-fantasy stuff!

My LGS seemed annoyed that this was online only after they 'took the risk' on the earlier books, but as the only reason I'd started re-visitig them was to collect your books and have since turned into a regular I don't think they can complain too much.

[The Giant]

My LGS seemed annoyed that this was online only after they 'took the risk' on the earlier books, but as the only reason I'd started re-visitig them was to collect your books and have since turned into a regular I don't think they can complain too much.

I'm as big a fan as the next guy of supporting gaming stores, but I hate the attitude that a small minority of them seem to have that I am obligated to put their bottom line above my own. I don't publish OOTS as part of an elaborate scheme to support gaming stores, I do it to support myself. If that happens to help them out too, then awesome. Everybody wins. But I don't think they have a right to get annoyed at me for making decisions that make financial sense for my (very small) company.

[Tobrian]

My copy of OotS: SS&DT has arrived in Germany! Yay!

I didn't catch the hidden jokes on my first read-through, but on the second time around I noticed some hidden meta-jokes:

In "Elan and the Beanstalk", page 3, first three panels,

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the Sean Bean joke: of course Boromir from Lord of the Rings would meet his end at the point of an orc's arrow. (Although in the movie it was three arrows if I remember correctly. But then, an actor has fewer hitpoints than a high-level fighter.

In "Elan and the Beanstalk", page 11, 4th and 5th panels,

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when the GIANT falls off the beanstalk he drops into a PLAYGROUND (visible faintly in the background)!

In "Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark", page 28, last panel, when

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Belkar makes a lewd proposition to Jenny, the bard girl from the Thieves Guild, we get a nice "Stratford-upon-Avon" joke there (Stratford-upon-Avon being the town which is the birthplace of William Shakespeare).

In "Goldenleaf",

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Belkar channels various Bond villains (the name, the white cat, the mangling of the "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die." line) although these are less of a hidden meta-joke and more like annotations.

Are there more?
-----------------(change of topic)------------------------

I'd like to see more of the 4DOoTS (pronounced "fourdoots"?); at the very least it'd be nice to see them in full color. (And the 4D Linear Guild! What kind of completely-missing-the-point multiclass hybrid Frankenstein build has Nale saddled himself with?)

Actually, I don't. I prefer the 4E OotS characters to stay a one-time joke, not for the "4th Dimension" alter egos of our heroes and villains to evolve into a full alternate comic strip. Because as ironic as it sounds, the point that Rich made about there only being limited time for roleplaying and different D&D editions/RPG systems/hobbies having to time-share is equally valid when it comes to comic strips: Ever strip that features the Wacky Adventures of the 4E characters takes away time from our Order of the Stick! Any 4E strip Rich has to draw is one less strip about our OotS!

Also, it's not like these are technically new characters, so what's the point? As much as I love alternate takes on characters (i.e. Mirror Universe stories), those are only interesting when you contrast them with the Prime universe characters. Unless you want to start a whole new continuity and end the old continuity (i.e. superhero comics, the Star Trek movie relaunch).

And making a whole storyline only filled with the 4E Order of the Stick would mean for the audience to know the 4E rules, just to get the 4E in-jokes. In the crossover story, I could get the jokes fine despite only having a fleeting knowledge of the actual in-depths 4E rules (everything I have heard and seen and read about the changes to the setting, classes, races, and most importantly the way 4E plays convinced me I won't like it, but I didn't get into the minutiae of the rules crunch, because why waste my life on that?).

[Alaska Fan]

Giant, skimming through the first two pages of comments I didn't see this addressed, so maybe it is just me. But my preference would be to have you focus on the main story. The compendia, while amusing, simply aren't at the same level as the main tale. For me, at least, the stuff in "Snips" comes off as a one-off, and can't compare to the writing, plot development and characterization in the primary story.

I think, in the end, you'd make more money at it, too.

[The Giant]

Giant, skimming through the first two pages of comments I didn't see this addressed, so maybe it is just me. But my preference would be to have you focus on the main story.

It's not included as an option because there is only so much main story to write. Whether or not I work on any of these projects will not increase the amount of story there is to tell, and these will extend the overall OOTS experience between now and the day that it ends for good. I'm not going to pad the main story more or invent prequels for trivial minor characters; the number of prequels I still have planned is pretty much fixed in my mind, I just can't publish them until certain facts have been revealed in-comic so that they aren't massive spoilers for future events.

So, the choice isn't between "this stuff" and "more of the main strip," it's between "this stuff and the main strip" and "just the main strip." I appreciate the compliments, but part of good writing is knowing when not to drag a given plot out and beat it to death. I don't want OOTS to be the webcomic equivalent to a TV series that goes 11 seasons when it should have only gone 7.

[Sunken Valley]

I don't want OOTS to be the webcomic equivalent to a TV series that goes 11 seasons when it should have only gone 7.

So does this mean that there will be 7 non-prequel books? Also your comment on prequel books give strong hints that Prequel book -2 will be Order of the Scribble orientated, as they are the only major group whose backstory has not been revealed.

[pendell]

I don't want OOTS to be the webcomic equivalent to a TV series that goes 11 seasons when it should have only gone 7.

And this is why I'm a fan. Bill Watterson and Lynn Johnston were comic strip geniuses because they had the good sense to end their stories when they ran out of things to say. Compare and contrast with the zombie-like Peanuts which still runs in some newspapers despite the fact that the author has been dead for more than ten years!



I suppose some people will keep flogging a dead horse for money long after it's not only expired, but decayed to bone. Thank God -- and thank Rich -- OOTS won't suffer that fate. Better to go in a blaze of glory.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[silversaraph]

Hmm... It seems to me that everyone liked the "prince of Denmark" story and not the Julio one. Definitely the other way around for me. The latter was funny and action-packed, while the former kinda droned on forever.
and...

On the back cover it said that "hardcore stick figure porn" was left out of the book. Was there softcore stick figure porn? If so, I missed it.

[martianmister]

Stick tales > Other stuff.

[Nu]

Well, count me in the minority that wants more 4E OotS tales. While I am an almost exclusively 4E DnD player these days, and some of the jokes originally came off to me as a bit harsh; I understand that you have done much the same for 3.5 in previous strips, and that it probably only seems more diluted because it was more spread out (take the dragon strip devoted to obscure and "complicated" combat moves like grappling and overrun, for example). Furthermore, most of the shots at the system were perfectly legitimate (in particular, the strategy employed by the 3.5 OotS by attacking at long range WOULD be a major problem for almost all 4E parties), and in retrospect, it effectively displays several problems with 3.5 as well (surprising absolutely no one, it was spells cast by 3.5 Durkon and V that dominated the final battle between the two parties, in addition to a deluge of consumables).

Just seeing more references to the system I run, play, and prefer would be awesome. And in any case, the 4E version of the OotS seems fun enough in and of itself, with tons of joke possibilities popping up in everyday combat for them (Commander's Strike was the best example from the strips themselves, but there are others). Seeing other characters like Miko, Xykon, Redcloak, and the Linear Guild in the 4E syle would be pretty awesome.

Regarding the rest of the book: the dragon strips were enjoyable, the Julio Scoundrel comic not so much. I'm not really sure what it was about the Julio strips that I didn't like, perhaps it's just I was never a fan of serial comic books in general. The art style was also somewhat off-putting to me. Most of the stick tales struck me as kind of forced, but I loved the over-the-top humor found in Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark. In my opinion, Belkar and Xykon totally stole the show there, especially Xykon's exaggerated version of his "canon" self (a little less violent, a lot more apathetic). I would say if you did more StickTales, definitely make them more like the Greenhilt story than the others.

[NerfTW]

So, the choice isn't between "this stuff" and "more of the main strip," it's between "this stuff and the main strip" and "just the main strip." I appreciate the compliments, but part of good writing is knowing when not to drag a given plot out and beat it to death. I don't want OOTS to be the webcomic equivalent to a TV series that goes 11 seasons when it should have only gone 7.

You can even find plenty of examples in webcomics of this.

So does this mean that there will be 7 non-prequel books? Also your comment on prequel books give strong hints that Prequel book -2 will be Order of the Scribble orientated, as they are the only major group whose backstory has not been revealed.

Assuming your first line was a joke, we don't know the Linear Guild's entire backstory yet either. Straight off the bat we know Sabine's real loyalties and mission are still up in the air. The latest strip can be taken either way, especially given the title "Where her loyalties lie", which can be straightforward or implying she's lying to one of them. There might be details about Tarquin's group we don't know. Girard might still tie into it somehow, given that Tarquin knows him.

[Blisstake]

So does this mean that there will be 7 non-prequel books? Also your comment on prequel books give strong hints that Prequel book -2 will be Order of the Scribble orientated, as they are the only major group whose backstory has not been revealed.

They're just numbers. Not everything he says has a hidden meaning.

[Oppolo]

So does this mean that there will be 7 non-prequel books? Also your comment on prequel books give strong hints that Prequel book -2 will be Order of the Scribble orientated, as they are the only major group whose backstory has not been revealed.

There are plenty of major groups who haven't had their backstory revealed. The Order of the Scribble, the Linear Guild (and the IFCC), Tarquin's group (if he stays important to the story), Haley's parents (assuming her father stays important to the story). V's past hasn't been fully revealed, even though we've been given hints about her family and mentor, and it may be important.

Of course, there are still options that we don't even consider. Maybe the Snarl and the Gods will require a prequel? Maybe some inhabitants of the world in the Rift will necessitate a backstory? There are any number of options!

[Capt Spanner]

I really enjoyed the Julio stuff. It was really nice to see more variety in the panel layout, and angles, and stuff. I'd certainly buy a book centered around him, partially because I think he has an excellent scope for new material: The Giant can have him do almost anything without worrying about spoiling the main plot, or becoming inconsistent with it. The writing style also comes from a different angle (as stated in the commentary) which makes this a doubly interesting angle to explore the creative possibilities.

The fairy tales were a bit of a mixed bag. Elan and the Beanstalk didn't tickle me much, and Goldleaf felt a lot like stuff I'd seen before, but the Hamlet parody was absolutely brilliant. It's a neat idea, but truth told I have the feeling there's only so long that particular joke can last before it outstays its welcome.

[KingFlameHawk]

Really loved the book. I really enjoyed the 4th/3.5 wars as I started out with 4th edition and I liked a lot of the jokes in the section. I would also like to see more about them but also agree with others that an entire book about them may not be the best idea. What I think would work good would be in another book of short stories like this one 20 or so pages could be devoted to strips like in the begining of OoTS were every page is about one joke about the system and the Order are going through a dungeon crawl or something.

Also (And I apoligize if this sounds like complaning, it is not) I have a small question about the 4th strips as well. on page ten of theose strips 4th Roy says that he was planning to use Forced Retreat on the order, indication he has the Battle Captain paragpn path. But in strip number 18 he uses Skirmish Ploy from the Combat Veteran paragon path. Is this just a simple mistake or some joke I don't get or something. And if it was answered before in the forum I missed it so just direct me there if it is. Thank you.

[The Giant]

Also (And I apoligize if this sounds like complaning, it is not) I have a small question about the 4th strips as well. on page ten of theose strips 4th Roy says that he was planning to use Forced Retreat on the order, indication he has the Battle Captain paragpn path. But in strip number 18 he uses Skirmish Ploy from the Combat Veteran paragon path. Is this just a simple mistake or some joke I don't get or something.

Simple mistake. Also one of the things that I disliked the most about writing the 4e section, I pretty much was forced to determine in advance all the powers they would use rather than keeping it nebulous like I do in the regular strip.

[Katana_Geldar]

Giant, Roy could easily have been using a homebrew Paragon path that included both, similar to Elan's Dashing Swordsman.

[Warren Dew]

Giant, Roy could easily have been using a homebrew Paragon path that included both, similar to Elan's Dashing Swordsman.

Or he was planning to use Forced Retreat only because he didn't realize he didn't have it.

[derfenrirwolv]

More kingdom of the white dragon please! Thats one dragon that knows what they want and how to get it.

Swarm of puffins seemed odd, then i remembered that you can call a baby fox a baby, kit, cub, or pup. Or Larry.

[Sunken Valley]

There are plenty of major groups who haven't had their backstory revealed. The Order of the Scribble, the Linear Guild (and the IFCC), Tarquin's group (if he stays important to the story), Haley's parents (assuming her father stays important to the story). V's past hasn't been fully revealed, even though we've been given hints about her family and mentor, and it may be important.

Of course, there are still options that we don't even consider. Maybe the Snarl and the Gods will require a prequel? Maybe some inhabitants of the world in the Rift will necessitate a backstory? There are any number of options!

Oh there are plenty of groups. There just aren't any major ones. Linear Guild and Tarquin can have bits of the book like Eugene GreenHilt and MitD did in SoD. But they can't run a whole book. Besides I think the linear guild as an organisation will be dead by the end of book 5. Nale and Sabine might get away but it's curtains for Thog, Z, YukYuk's free will and Anti Durkon. It also can't be anything in the rift otherwise the very existence of the book would be spoilerifc. The Order of the Scribble, if you just look at the front and back of the book, are not spoilerific. Thus they would be the best option. What is more, I think we are missing some big reveal from the Scribbles history (which is why Rich wrote this book instead of prequel -2). When we get that reveal, Scribble book won't be far away.

[danielmayer]

I'd surely like some stories about "Black Elan" = Elan using or trying to get rid of the not-sure-if-it's-magical-black-sword. I loved the strip when it was published in Dragon and always waited for a sequel :)