PF Monk Archetypes

[Talentless]

I realize that the Monk is an... interesting choice (read, underpowered to the point of absurdity)

But the group I'm in that will be starting is not exactly a fan of super optimization, so a Monk won't be useless, and I can optimize it to a decent level in the group without breaking the campaign. (Our Wizard does know the power inherent in the class, but he isn't out to break anything, he just wants to be the cranky old dude who screws the enemy forces over and lets the youngins do all the skull crackin)


So, on to my question. What is the most useful of the following Monk Archetypes?

Flowing Monk

Master of Many Styles

Monk of the Four Winds

Just from looking them over, the Master of Many Styles seems to me to have the most power, but then, I haven't really made any Monks before, and I don't really know how to judge the base abilities reliably. I tend to bias myself too much, especially because the group I run with don't try to break the campaign wide open as much as optimization threads do.

Build advice is much appreciated. Stats are 20 point PF buy. Thanks



*And yes, I do know about the Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk build. I don't need it posted as a response to my question, it isn't what I want to make.

[Ravens_cry]

Pathfinder Monks got some nice boosts compared to their 3.5 ones. Personally, I want to try Tetori monk.
It's a grappler that can grapple even at levels when classic grappling counters, like freedom of movement and dimension door are up.
That squishy wizard ain't getting away this time.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Bear in mind that it's possible to have multiple archetypes so long as they don't both replace the same class feature.

Also I second Tetori Monk just so you can get a ghost in a headlock :p

[grarrrg]

Sensei
It can Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness like a Bard, rounds are based on Wisdom.
At 2nd level you can use your Wisdom on all attack rolls.

Alternately, make a Halfling Martial Artist.
You get +1 to the DC of your Stunning Fist (and Quivering Palm).
Can qualify for Fighter Only feats using your Monk level.
And at 4th can take Swift actions to (potentially) bypass DR, OR for an AC/Ref save boost.
Halfling is there for the Favored Class bonus of +1/2 Stunning Fist uses per day.


It is also possible to take BOTH archetypes. The main benefit is that the Halfling's -2 Str hurts less, because you use Wis to hit.
Combined Archetype 20-point buy:
Str 10 (12 -2 race)
Dex 14 (12 +2 race)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 9 (7 +2 race)

[The Glyphstone]

The Hungry Ghost archetype can be an absolute machine if you build it right.

[Starbuck_II]

Sensei
It can Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness like a Bard, rounds are based on Wisdom.
At 2nd level you can use your Wisdom on all attack rolls.

Sensei makes a great buffer.
Main reason: Sensei lets you give personal abilities to allies.
So a Sensei/Ninja can make everyone have a Shadow Clone (14th level minimum, 12 Sensei/Ninja 2).

Mystic Wisdom (Su)

At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).

Since Ki pools are totaled not seperate you are still using points from your ki Pool.
Minimum Sensei 6/Ninja 2 though for the fun.

[gourdcaptain]

Sohei is pretty good IMHO for a monk, but it's not quite the classic monk. Also, Mounted Skirmisher at first level. Just saying.

[Angry Bob]

The Hungry Ghost archetype can be an absolute machine if you build it right.

Don't leave us hanging...

Also I've heard good things about the qinggong monk and have read the Tetori monk enough to second that it's pretty good.

[Talentless]

Thanks for the responses... but I'm wondering if anyone even read my original post.

To clarify I was more asking about a comparison between the 3 archetypes i mentioned, Flowing Monk, Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Four Winds.

[Starbuck_II]

Thanks for the responses... but I'm wondering if anyone even read my original post.

To clarify I was more asking about a comparison between the 3 archetypes i mentioned, Flowing Monk, Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Four Winds.

Master of Many Styles is a better Dip class I thought.
Many good boosts for Martial characters.

Never tried Flowing/Four Winds.

[Curious]

Don't leave us hanging...

Also I've heard good things about the qinggong monk and have read the Tetori monk enough to second that it's pretty good.

Well, OP did say not to post this, but since you're curious. . .

Hungry Ghost, Qinggong monk. Trade Tongue of the Sun and Moon for Cold Ice Strike, trade High Jump for Gaseous Form, trade Wholeness of Body for Restoration, take the Dimensional feats on the PFSRD up to Dimensional Dervish, grab the Spider Step and Cloud Step feats, get a keen guided weapon. Pick up a few style feats, such as Dragon or Crane style.

Guided adds Wis to damage and to hit in place of Str, Dimensional Dervish allows you to move + full attack, Spider Step allows you to run across water or up walls, cloud Step allows you to run across the air, Gaseous Form lets you go through walls, Restoration is always useful, Cold Ice Strike is a swift action 15d6 attack, Hungry Ghost allows you to regain ki on a crit or kill. Be human.

[Talentless]

Well, OP did say not to post this, but since you're curious. . .

Heh, My biggest issue with the build is that asside from Cold Ice Strike and Gaseous form... the feat combination of abilities should be part of the Monk's Core skill set, they shouldn't have to take the feats to enact shaolin monk style martial arts effects.

[Waker]

Well, since I haven't played a Monk in PF, my expertise on the matter is somewhat questionable, but here I go.
Flowing Monk: Seems like a very nice archetype. The reposition and trip abilities really feel useful, especially when you add in the sickened trait which goes off of reflex (tends to be most npcs weak save). Only downside is that you can't use reposition on a target more than one size category larger. AoOs that grant the flat-footed status is quite nice, especially if you have a rogue in the party. Flowing Dodge is meh. Elusive Target seems very tasty, especially the ability to damage a flanker. Volley Spell is hilarious if successful.
Master of Many Styles: I haven't taken the time to examine all the styles since they don't have a separate category on the SRD, but some of them seem very nice. I especially like Crane Wing, which basically just lets you say "No" to attempts to hit you. I would say this could definitely be a fun archetype to play.
Monk of the Four Winds: I don't really care for it. I would rather stun, sicken, blind etc than do a few extra points of damage. Slow time seems really cool, you could potentially get a lot of good stuff going on with this ability. Aspect Master seems pretty crappy. You get an extra movement type or a spell-like ability. The only one I would consider from a strictly mechanical viewpoint is the Tiger since it gives Pounce, though it does hurt that it comes online so late. Immortality seems funny, but its actually kinda crappy. Since the ability is based off of Reincarnation, you can't have been killed by a Death effect or disintegrated which is possible considering the level, plus you gain 2 negative levels and run the risk of changing into a race ill-suited to being a monk. Frankly if your character dies, you'd be better off just getting resurrected by the party.

Hope that helped.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

I'm working on a Master of Many Style mini-boss for my players.

Check this out:

Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity while also gaining the benefits of Marid Style + Marid Spirit.

Just let that sink in.

[maximus25]

What about the monk of the healing hand?

[Waker]

What about the monk of the healing hand?

Very unimpressive. Ancient Healing Hand is horrible. 2 ki to heal 1hp/monk level as a full round action? Maybe if it actually scaled better like Lay on Hands and could cure status ailments it would be somewhat worthwhile. Ki Sacrifice could be useful if the party's cleric or equivalent were killed and you were on hand to bring them back. True Sacrifice is a BBEG battle tactic, and you better hope the DM didn't pull out the BBEG is in another castle schtick.

[El Dorado]

Zen archer. Not relevant to the OP but it's worth mentioning because it's a great archetype.

[Ravens_cry]

Zen archer. Not relevant to the OP but it's worth mentioning because it's a great archetype.

A very different archetype, but still interesting.

[Chained Birds]

Sensei
It can Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness like a Bard, rounds are based on Wisdom.
At 2nd level you can use your Wisdom on all attack rolls.

Alternately, make a Halfling Martial Artist.
You get +1 to the DC of your Stunning Fist (and Quivering Palm).
Can qualify for Fighter Only feats using your Monk level.
And at 4th can take Swift actions to (potentially) bypass DR, OR for an AC/Ref save boost.
Halfling is there for the Favored Class bonus of +1/2 Stunning Fist uses per day.


It is also possible to take BOTH archetypes. The main benefit is that the Halfling's -2 Str hurts less, because you use Wis to hit.
Combined Archetype 20-point buy:
Str 10 (12 -2 race)
Dex 14 (12 +2 race)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 9 (7 +2 race)

How about a Dragonwrought Kobold? Though the feat is not in PF, it could be.

[Psyren]

Zen archer. Not relevant to the OP but it's worth mentioning because it's a great archetype.

You also get to yell "flurry of bows!" until you end up banished from your gaming group.

[grarrrg]

Flowing Monk:...AoOs that grant the flat-footed status is quite nice, especially if you have a rogue in the party....

Slightly better idea, get YOURSELF some Rogue levels or Sneak Attack, the flat-footing lasts until the END of your next turn.

Master of Many Styles: I haven't taken the time to examine all the styles since they don't have a separate category on the SRD...

Actually they do, Left menu, sub-category under "Feats"

Monk of the Four Winds:...

I'll just leave this here. You ever punch somebody from 20ft. away?

[Waker]

Slightly better idea, get YOURSELF some Rogue levels or Sneak Attack, the flat-footing lasts until the END of your next turn.



Actually they do, Left menu, sub-category under "Feats"



I'll just leave this here. You ever punch somebody from 20ft. away?

While you could take levels of rogue or ninja with a flowing monk, remember that the Unbalancing Strike DC is determined by your monk level, so you wouldn't want to invest too many levels in another class.
I'm not quite sure how I missed that Style tab when I was going through all the feats, but I still haven't taken the time to peruse the feats.
Yes, I punch people from 20ft away all the time.

[Krazzman]

Well, OP did say not to post this, but since you're curious. . .

...does this mean he replaces at level 5, 7 and 17 a Ability against a spell-like ability? Meaning, the build only kicks really on level 17?

And what would be his Attributes? Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Str > Cha?

[Mustard]

Qingong Monk is nice because it's compatible with every single other monk archetype, as it does not replace or change any features - it offers optional replacements (if my reading on that is correct). You cannot change something another archetype touches, but that still leaves a lot of options.

(Edit: Spelling)