How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?

[ad_hoc]

Well Chill Touch is bad so don't use it.

Frostbite is good unless the creature has high Con (or doesn't use weapon attacks)

Sorcerers get Ice Knife, that's decent for an AoE 1st level spell that fits your theme.

You didn't list your Metamagic. Those are key.

Also, you only have 1 2nd level spell. You should have 2 at this point.

Earthen Grasp is not great. Its main draw is the Restrained condition. The problem is that it is a Strength save and the creatures you most want to Restrain probably have high strength.

[ProseBeforeHos]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a Shadow sorcerer. I'm really enjoying my character in terms of personality/roleplaying. However, whenever it comes to combat, they're about as effective as a dead gerbil. Arguably less so as at least the other characters wouldn't have to worry about protecting a dead gerbil.

We're currently Lv3, and I've got the following spell list:

Chill Touch
Frostbite
Prestigitation
Minor Illusion

Shield
Chromatic Orb
Sleep

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp

(For the most part, I was aiming for a cold/shadow/necrotic theme.)

Anyway, it just seems like I just don't do anything meaningful in combat. My cantrips either do pitiful damage or nothing at all. Sleep gets maybe 1 weak enemy at most. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp has so far failed to do anything.

Have I just chosen bad spells? If so, what should I pick instead?

Otherwise, can anyone give me any advice on playing a (shadow) sorcerer and doing something meaningful with them in combat?

A) Sorcerers are extremely weak at early levels, there's only so much you can do.

B) Spell selection is a bit off. I would have taken mage armor over shield (you'll want that eventually though), and sleep is by level 3 already slightly obsolete. My best advice is to use it on injured monsters, and as soon as you hit level 4 swap it out for something else (mage armor would be a good pickup).

When you hit level 6 everything will get a lot easier. Especially w/ the shadow sorc who gets a huge lvl 6 spike (save sorc points for doggo, focus on staying alive while the pup does damage and soaks hits).

[Specter]

At level 3, there's not much you can do. Mage Armor is better than Shield, because +3AC for 8 hours is more important than +5AC for one round.
But with Quicken or Twin at later levels, you will always be able to do something great when you need to.

[UrielAwakened]

Take two levels of Warlock, Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Agonizing Blast.

[Dr. Cliché]

Well Chill Touch is bad so don't use it.

Is there anything I can replace it with?

Frostbite is good unless the creature has high Con (or doesn't use weapon attacks)

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.

I know Chill Touch is lacklustre but at least it does something.

You didn't list your Metamagic. Those are key.

Quicken and Twin.

Also, you only have 1 2nd level spell. You should have 2 at this point.

Even though I only have 2 lv2 spell slots?

Also, in that case, what would you recommend?

Earthen Grasp is not great. Its main draw is the Restrained condition. The problem is that it is a Strength save and the creatures you most want to Restrain probably have high strength.

Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site.

A) Sorcerers are extremely weak at early levels, there's only so much you can do.

Joy.

B) Spell selection is a bit off. I would have taken mage armor over shield (you'll want that eventually though), and sleep is by level 3 already slightly obsolete. My best advice is to use it on injured monsters, and as soon as you hit level 4 swap it out for something else (mage armor would be a good pickup).

What about choices for lv2+ spells?

I mean, I can swap around shield and mage armour, but as it stands my problem is not that I'm taking too much damage but that I'm just not inflicting any damage.

Take two levels of Warlock, Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Agonizing Blast.

So the way to not suck with a sorcerer is to play a different class? Fantastic.

[ad_hoc]

At level 3, there's not much you can do. Mage Armor is better than Shield, because +3AC for 8 hours is more important than +5AC for one round.
But with Quicken or Twin at later levels, you will always be able to do something great when you need to.

Shield is better.

Mage Armour might not do anything for you and so will be a waste of a spell slot often enough to be significant.

Shield will almost always work so will be worth the spell slot. It is +5 AC versus +3 AC so it has more potential to save you. Finally, it lasts until your turn so it might stop multiple attacks.

Mage Armour is only good when 1st level slots are plentiful.

*edit* It is even worse with the Strength of the Grave ability.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site.

Oh dear. It wasn't the one that says Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is a good spell, was it?

That guide needs a big glowing neon sign saying "It's a Trap!" to warn the new players.

[ad_hoc]

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.

I know Chill Touch is lacklustre but at least it does something.

Probabilities are funny things. I've had AA cracked 5 (or more) times in a row, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best hand.

Chill Touch is also not terrible. Cantrips tend to do 1d10 damage or 1d8 with a minor rider. Chill Touch just has a weak (basically useless) rider and Necrotic damage is bit of a weak damage type.

Even though I only have 2 lv2 spell slots?

Also, in that case, what would you recommend?

1 combat and 1 utility.

Also, you know the Darkness spell anyway so you should have 3 2nd level spells known.

There are a bunch of good 2nd level spells. Look for spells that will be good for your Eyes of the Dark ability.

Yeah, I was stupid enough to believe a guide to sorcerers on this site.

Anyone can write a guide. People on this site think they are very good at games, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Big fish, small ponds, and all that.

Also, don't be too upset. Levels 1-4 go by very quickly. The main game is levels 5-10. Characters realize their potential until level 5 or 6 (rarely 7).

[Dr. Cliché]

Probabilities are funny things. I've had AA cracked 5 (or more) times in a row, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best hand.

Granted, but it's hard to keep telling myself that when the spell could just as easily read 'skip your action'.

Chill Touch is also not terrible. Cantrips tend to do 1d10 damage or 1d8 with a minor rider. Chill Touch just has a weak (basically useless) rider and Necrotic damage is bit of a weak damage type.

Well, I'd like to use Toll the Dead instead (which would at least help on the damage front). However, WotC despise sorcerers so they're basically the only class who aren't allowed to use that spell.

1 combat and 1 utility.

What would your recommendation be for the combat power?

Also, you know the Darkness spell anyway so you should have 3 2nd level spells known.

I don't count Darkness because it's basically useless unless I spend spell points to cast it.

There are a bunch of good 2nd level spells. Look for spells that will be good for your Eyes of the Dark ability.

Eh?

Eyes of the Dark interacts with precisely 1 spell. And even then it has to be cast with spell points or else it screws me over anyway.

Also, don't be too upset. Levels 1-4 go by very quickly. The main game is levels 5-10. Characters realize their potential until level 5 or 6 (rarely 7).

Perhaps, but it doesn't make those levels any less tedious.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I would keep Chill Touch and get rid of Frostbite. Chill Touch may not have a rider that comes into play every battle, but being able to prevent the target from healing for an entire round is a big deal when it does happen. Hell, I had a Valor Bard that did nothing but use Chill Touch on a vampire. It prevented the vampire from healing and forced disadvantage on all attack rolls against him.

Frostbite on the other hand is a saving throw that allows a Con save. Con saves tend to be the worst, since monsters tend to have a high Con. I would replace Frostbite with something else...maybe Toll of the Dead if Sorcerers get it

[Prince Zahn]

Here's my analysis, you can take any part of it or leave it, I wouldn't mind, but these are some thoughts that might make your game better:

First off, sleep is never gonna play off again past the first two levels unless you spend your highest level spell slot to keep it relevant. In your position, I'd swap it out for a different first level spell, preferably an out of combat one like Charm Person or Disguise Self that would give you more options outside of combat. In fact, if you can cast Charm Person before you roll initiative, you could end a large chunk of single enemy encounters before they even begin. However, if you are dead set at improving your combat spell list, consider taking a damage AoE - Burning Hands and Thunderwave are both respectable 1st level AoEs with good potential for collateral damage/utility if need be.

The people above me aren't wrong that Chill touch is a relatively situational cantrip, but speaking as one who relies on it with his Tortle Abjurer, you'll be grateful you took it at 2nd tier when monsters start having Regeneration.
If you can bide your time until next level, you will be eligible for a feat. War Caster is a good option, but I would actually recommend that you take Magic Initiate (Warlock), so you can take Toll the Dead, which is a cantrip I believe the Sorcerer sorely deserves - it'll mean you deal better, more, and more consistent damage against anything that already took damage - a great spell against melee enemies! You can also grab Mage Hand for some fun, or another combat cantrip, and either Hellish Rebuke or Arms of Hadar as a rest-powered spell, both could help you get out of a sticky situation, depending on what you know you're dealing with.

2nd level spells... Consider swapping out Earthen Grasp in favor of Web, because you'll be able to target more creatures with it, which in turn means a better chance of restraining at least 1 enemy. If it fails once, a creative melee character can shove a foe back in there with a good athletics check. Also, webs are flammable, and flammable is always a desirable trait in a D&D prop

More fun 2nd level spells for you might include Blur /Mirror Image so you won't feel like you need to be protected all the time, Shadow Blade from XGt will sync well, now that you can cast Darkness and see through it (2d8 finesse throwable psychic blade that you can slash or throw at your enemies with advantage, and return to your hand as a bonus action.) also as a side note - suggestion can be used effectively and hilariously in combat.

[Jack Bitters]

I second the Ice Knife suggestion. It sounds like you're fighting enemies that are likely to make their saving throws, whereas you are more likely to hit with a spell attack. Ice Knife gives you that spell attack and the chance to do damage on a failed save, so that's two chances of success in one spell. It's got decent range and small AoE so that's good too. However, it cannot be twinned, so there is that.

For cantrips, then, if you're hitting with attack rolls but not getting success with the saving throw ones, stick to chill touch and maybe switch frostbite for ray of frost.
Idk what kinds of encounters you run into, but I could see taking the Control Flames cantrip as a way to extinguish fire/torches and leave your enemies in the dark. Food for thought.

Web might be a better choice than Maximillian's Earthen Grasp because it targets Dexterity, which is a less common save at low levels (I think). Plus you can set it on fire for some minor damage. Either that or Hold Person. Hold Person is a wisdom saving throw, which is also fairly uncommon, and you could twin it. It only works against humanoids but it is ridiculously strong and your fighter friends will love you for it.

Finally, if you're looking for sheer damage, I would swap out the Quicken metamagic for Empower. It has a cheaper cost which is very important at these low levels when you don't have the sorcerery points to throw away. Additionally, you're effectively quickening a spell to be able to cast a cantrip that does 1d8 damage. 2 points for 1d8 damage is not good. Twin is still good though, esp. twinned chromatic orb.

[Foxhound438]

You say that it's good yet it has been consistently awful with virtually every creature of every type making their saves without issue.

you might be suffering from "DM likes boss fights syndrome", which is a rare but often fatal disease. Symptoms include absurdly over-CR enemies that never miss and never fail saves due to their inflated stats, fights rarely or never including multiple enemies, and adventuring days consisting of one fight followed immediately by the swift end of the session.

But in the case you aren't seeing all of that, maybe you just aren't lucky. As others said, you should start seeing more effectiveness after level 5.

[UrielAwakened]

So the way to not suck with a sorcerer is to play a different class? Fantastic.

No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.

[samcifer]

I'd recommend Acid Splash as it targets DEX. Ditch Sleep as it's pretty weak and is rarely useful at your level and will be all but useless in two more levels.

[Dr. Cliché]

Out of interest, what would the optimal spells/cantrips be if I abandoned flavour entirely?

No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.

Perhaps, but my group already makes fun of me for frequently playing Warlocks so it would be nice if I didn't have to add to that tally even more.

Also, I'm rather concerned that if I did this I'd end up feeling less like a sorcerer and more like a Warlock with some wasted levels.

Also also, it seems the Shadow Sorcerer's most useful/interesting ability is gained at lv6 - so if I take 2 levels of Warlock I'll be delaying getting it even more.

[danpit2991]

i will second everything that has already been said about your spells being sub-optimal the easiest thing is to ask your DM if you can redo your spell list. following that the quickest way to more power is unironically to sell your soul and dip warlock barring that if it makes no sense RP or flavor or just not your thing and you are playing with feats take either spell sniper or magic initiate and grab EB as one of the cantrips its good even without AB

[Whit]

Personally I don’t know much about shadow but I do know about sorcerer.
Less spell options as you get inky so much to know. You will usually use fire bolt or sinikisr cantrip for combat unless you need ae or specific spell. Your key set is metamagic
Double range blah unless dm is big on more than 20 hexes or range
Increase damage by ch modifier blah
No verbal somatic nice but not a first pick great for charm without someone knowing you cast or if silenced
Twin double the single spell target at double the lvl cost. Expensive but could be useful
One target disadvantage spell save is huge.
Cast one spell quicken is major. Did you say 2 fireballs? Why yes. I did. Anyway you won’t see much power until your lvl 6 and even then it’s short lived.

[Dr. Cliché]

i will second everything that has already been said about your spells being sub-optimal the easiest thing is to ask your DM if you can redo your spell list. following that the quickest way to more power is unironically to sell your soul and dip warlock barring that if it makes no sense RP or flavor or just not your thing and you are playing with feats take either spell sniper or magic initiate and grab EB as one of the cantrips its good even without AB

To be quite honest, I regret picking sorcerer in the first place.

This was my first time using one. I tend to favour casters in general and I thought a Shadow Sorcerer, particularly in regard to the near-death experience part, was the best fit for my character. However, I just haven't found it at all enjoyable to play. And certainly not useful or effective.

If I'd picked a Warlock initially (and suffered the usual mockery from my fellow players), I could have easily worked the patron thing into my character's backstory. However, voluntarily making a pact now would be completely out of character.

I know you're right about Eldritch Blast still being decent without AB, but it doesn't make it any less depressing that the only way I can have a half-decent sorcerer is to basically have a crap excuse for a Warlock.

[Naanomi]

Cast one spell quicken is major. Did you say 2 fireballs? Why yes. I did. Anyway you won’t see much power until your lvl 6 and even then it’s short lived.

Quicken is good but doesn’t work that way, doesn’t bypass the spells/turn limit

[mephnick]

Quicken is good but doesn’t work that way, doesn’t bypass the spells/turn limit

I think they missed a good opportunity to make the sorceror cool here. Quicken as it stands is only good for multiclass builds like Sorcadin.

When I explain it doesn't bypass the limit you can actually see the player get disappointed and decide to roll a different class.

They needed to make metamagic more powerful and balanced it somewhere else if it was going to be the class's core concept.

[danpit2991]

To be quite honest, I regret picking sorcerer in the first place.

This was my first time using one. I tend to favour casters in general and I thought a Shadow Sorcerer, particularly in regard to the near-death experience part, was the best fit for my character. However, I just haven't found it at all enjoyable to play. And certainly not useful or effective.

If I'd picked a Warlock initially (and suffered the usual mockery from my fellow players), I could have easily worked the patron thing into my character's backstory. However, voluntarily making a pact now would be completely out of character.

I know you're right about Eldritch Blast still being decent without AB, but it doesn't make it any less depressing that the only way I can have a half-decent sorcerer is to basically have a crap excuse for a Warlock.

it honestly is your spell and metamagic selections that are causing the problems like i said the best solution is to get with your DM and revamp your spell list i mean as of right now you are only 3rd level and just starting out you just cant expect EB/AB levels of damage right now i mean that is Warlocks stchick it is literally the most reliable part of the whole class it seems to me that no matter what advice anyone gives you you just shut it down maybe you are just so frustrated with your character and the choices you made that you cant get past the previous suckage, i dont know but you dont have to be a crap Warlock to be a good Sorcerer its just the easiest way to mitigate your choices and salvage your build if you cant redo your spells literally the only things you can do to help"fix" it is to multiclass of get the feats

[Whit]

Did I miss an erata.
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, (fireball) you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

[Jack Bitters]

I will say at this point don't multiclass to warlock. Stick with sorcerer until level 6. Don't delay your power spike--level 3 spells are very strong

For optimal damage... first off, do you tend to stand back a ways from the melee combatants and stay safe, or do you do you get caught up in the fray?
For long range blasting: twinned chromatic orb, empowered magic missile, and ray of frost/chill touch. Scorching ray for the level 2 spell--it's very, very good.

For close ranged stuff: burning hands and thunderwave are good. Anything that does half damage on a save is your friend because you don't want to feel like you've done nothing.
Dragon's breath for the level 2 spell--cast it on yourself, twin it with someone else.. quite good. And then actually once you do that, if you stick with Quicken as a metamagic, you can cast another spell while using your dragon's breath. So you could theoretically pump out 6d6 of damage with burning hands and dragon's breath in an area. Costly but very good damage.

EDIT: just in case you didn't know, dragon's breath gives the option to do acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage, so you can stick to theme while using it.

[Jack Bitters]

Did I miss an erata.
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, (fireball) you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

Whit you are correct but the rules also state that when you cast a spell that is not a cantrip as a bonus action (i.e. Quicken fireball) the only other spells you cast that turn may be cantrips.

This is intentionally designed so that you cannot drop two fireballs in a turn with Quicken.

[Dr. Cliché]

it honestly is your spell and metamagic selections that are causing the problems like i said the best solution is to get with your DM and revamp your spell list i mean as of right now you are only 3rd level and just starting out you just cant expect EB/AB levels of damage right now i mean that is Warlocks stchick it is literally the most reliable part of the whole class it seems to me that no matter what advice anyone gives you you just shut it down maybe you are just so frustrated with your character and the choices you made that you cant get past the previous suckage, i dont know but you dont have to be a crap Warlock to be a good Sorcerer its just the easiest way to mitigate your choices and salvage your build if you cant redo your spells literally the only things you can do to help"fix" it is to multiclass of get the feats

I apologise if I come across as shutting everyone down. You're right - I am frustrated with my character choice. However, you'll forgive me if advice like 'take warlock levels instead' or 'take a feat that lets you take warlock spells' hasn't exactly sold me on the sorcerer or its ability to not suck.

You say I can't expect EB/AB levels of damage right now, but what exactly can I expect? Is it so wrong that I'm looking rather enviously at the damage inflicted by my fellow party members, whilst my own magical attacks are about as effective as flicking staples at the enemy? Is it wrong that, given that my attacks are already far less effective than those of my fellow party members, I'd like them to at least work more than once every three rounds?


Also, to the chap who brought it up earlier - it's not bosses who are refusing to fail their saves against Frostbite - it's basic, run-of-the-mill mooks.

[Whit]

Well. I guess let’s change it to. Cast a fireball and then fire bolt Ty for info

[Jack Bitters]

Can you post which classes your party members are playing and also your ability scores for your sorcerer?

[danpit2991]

sorry if i came off wrong, wasnt my intent. Sorc is a good platform like i said it is your spell list that is causin the suck there have been many suggestions of what to change to stop that suckage ... but like i said it will take DM approval to change it now ... as you know as a Warlock fan its early level is great thats why barring DM fiat your best option is to MC of get one of the feats