True Dragon as PC

[Gnaritas]

So my DM has decided that for our next campaign we will all be dragons, i am not too fond of this, but that's another discussion.

He put us at ECL 12. Looking at the chart in Draconimicon (which will be used), the lowest ECL dragons are:

White Wyrmling (3 RHD, LA +2, ECL 5)
+2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha
Breath weapon: 1d6 cone of cold
Movement: Land 60 ft, Swim 60 ft, Fly 150 ft (Average), Burrow 30 ft
+2 Natural Armor
Ice walking, Immunity to Cold, Vulnerability to Fire

Brass Wyrmling (4 RHD, LA +2, ECL 6)
+2 Con
Breath weapon: 1d6 line of fire, cone of sleep
Movement: Land 60 ft, Fly 150 ft (Average), Burrow 30 ft
+3 Natural Armor
Speak with animals, Immunity to Fire, Vulnerability to Cold

Copper Wyrmling (5 RHD, LA +2, ECL 7)
+2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Breath weapon: 2d4 line of acid, cone of slow gas
Movement: Land 40 ft, Fly 100 ft (Average)
+4 Natural Armor
Spider Climb, Immunity to Acid

Black Wyrmling (4 RHD, LA +3, ECL 7)
+2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Breath weapon: 2d4 line of acid
Movement: Land 60 ft, Swim 60 ft, Fly 100 ft (Average)
+3 Natural Armor
Immunity to Acide, Water breathing

Currently i am considering the Copper Wyrmling with 5 levels of Cleric and DMM to get two spells persistant (using all my feats, a holy symbol and a nightstick, don't know which spells yet).

Other options i am considering:
Melee
A level of Barbarian to get Pounce (1 Bite, 2 claws), but the damage would still be horrific.
Swordsage or Warblade and maximize concentration to get good saves and with a Ring of Diamond Mind to get get Greater Insightful Strike (2x Concentration) to deal damage (about 70).

Anyone got any other fun ideas?

[JeminiZero]

How about Dragonwrought Kobold. You are technically still a True Dragon. Less LA and RHD means more caster levels.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, Cleric seems like a better Idea than barbarian since you don't get a boost to strength, and the mental boosts don't particularly help a Barbarian. You could also be a wizard or a Sorcerer since you get a boost to Charisma and Intelligence.

What is it you want to do with this character exactly?

Also, depending on what the white dragon is trying to do I'd ask him to reconsider. A -4 to intelligence and charisma may not be worth the one less hit die.

You could also try and convince your DM to allow homebrew. These classes are made to be much more playable than the normal dragons.

Spoiler

Show

Blue Dragon - by Oslecamo
Bronze Dragon - by Gorgondantess/Oslecamo
Fang dragon - by unknown
Golden Dragon - by Oslecamo
Green Dragon - by un_known
Red Dragon - by Oslecamo
Purple Dragon - by Oslecamo
Pyroclastic dragon - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
Silver Dragon - by Oslecamo
Styx Dragon - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
White Dragon - by un_known

How about Dragonwrought Kobold. You are technically still a True Dragon. Less LA and RHD means more caster levels.

Seems like a fairly bad abuse of the rules, and it sounds like it isn't what the DM intended at all.

[Gnaritas]

Well, Cleric seems like a better Idea than barbarian since you don't get a boost to strength, and the mental boosts don't particularly help a Barbarian. You could also be a wizard or a Sorcerer since you get a boost to Charisma and Intelligence.

What is it you want to do with this character exactly?

Also, depending on what the white dragon is trying to do I'd ask him to reconsider. A -4 to intelligence and charisma may not be worth the one less hit die.

You could also try and convince your DM to allow homebrew. These classes are made to be much more playable than the normal dragons.

Seems like a fairly bad abuse of the rules, and it sounds like it isn't what the DM intended at all.

The homebrew as well as the Kobold will not be allowed.
I considered Wizard, but the Dragon itself has Cleric casting and that will stack with my own cleric casting and given the little information we had from the DM, we should eventually get there.

What i want with the char, i am not sure. I want to see what my options are.

[Mystic Muse]

The homebrew as well as the Kobold will not be allowed.
I considered Wizard, but the Dragon itself has Cleric casting and that will stack with my own cleric casting and given the little information we had from the DM, we should eventually get there.

You don't get any casting until the young age category as far as I can tell, and that's a little out of your range.

[Coidzor]

You have to be a True Dragon? Not something like an Ambush Drake?

I think a Steel Dragon(ed2:Dragons of Faerun? thanks Kyuubi) might be of interest to you, those were mentioned as having good stats to HD to LA value for the younger forms. (ed2: since you're thinking melee, IIRC, fangs are another possible contestant there)

Edit: Totemist 1-2 would be of use to you if you're looking to fill the melee role. Since you're already going with natural weapons anyway, might as well take it up a notch.

A possibility as well, from Lords of Madness, is getting a Mouthpick weapon (+1 property) from the Beholder section, though it would preclude the use of your breath weapon while you were wielding it in place of your bite attack (and since it gives auto-proficiency, you can have it be an exotic weapon that's better than your bite attack in some or multiple ways)

[Mystic Muse]

According to wikipedia, sounds like Steel are in the book Dragons of Faerun.

[Coidzor]

Surprisingly, I've seen this topic come up before but could only find this thread on Brilliant Gameologists about a steel dragon gish using sovereign archetypes.

Though it does raise the question, LA buy-off or no?

[Greenish]

Surprisingly, I've seen this topic come up before but could only find this thread on Brilliant Gameologists about a steel dragon gish using sovereign archetypes.

Well, there's also this.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's also this.

Thank you. I actually tried to find that one and had my searching faculties completely fail me. x.x

[Skjaldbakka]

I'm starting into one of these myself, except we are starting at EC 18, and can't take class levels until we hit Young Adult HD.

Honestly, there aren't really any classes better than Dragon HD except for spellcasting ones, which is a high cost to pay for power (d4 instead of d12 HD for arcane, d8HD for divine, lose two good saves, lose 6+int skills, and starting at a low spellcaster level for your ECL...)

[Gnaritas]

Class abilities are worth a lot, consider a ECL 18, 12 Racial HD that takes a level of Warblade, it can take level 4 maneuvers from the get go. Who cares that it loses 2 skillpoints and a bit of saves.

LA cannot be bought off in our games.

[Heliomance]

I was iin an amazing dragons game, adapted from the 2nd ed Council of Wyrms. We were essentially gestalt, dragon HD on one side, classes on the other.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I second (or third, or whatever) steel wyrmling, they are the best dragons for these kind of games, and with the Loredrake sovereign archetype you can functions as a pretty good gish, and best of all you only lose 1 HP on average (I think). Continue advancing with classes such as Abjurant Champion or which ever is your favourite gish prestige class.

[Coidzor]

Come to think of it... You might be able to enter Master of Many Forms or Warshaper almost straight away.

This has gotten me thinking about trying out a Steel Wyrmling myself for an ECL 9 game, actually.

So, what are you thinking now, OP?

Edit: Some useful medium/small humanoid and animal forms from the Master of Many Forms bible.

[2xMachina]

Urgh, Dragons have a horrible amount of HD and LA.

Warshaper needs more than alternate form though, so no go there.

EDIT: Wyrmling also is bad for melee. Usually very small. Those that aren't have very high ECL.

Might as well go for fast + strafing Breath weapon

[Coidzor]

Warshaper needs more than alternate form though, so no go there.

So polymorph is fine but the equivalent of an SLA of it isn't, interesting. Ah well, so much for thinking outside of the box.

Urgh, Dragons have a horrible amount of HD and LA.

Well a Steel Dragon with Loredrake makes it like they're a sorcerer-based 4th level Eldritch Knight with 2 LA. So it's not too horrible. Or give all that much beyond the alternate form.

[Heliomance]

If everyone's a dragon, then the LA is somewhat irrelevant.

[2xMachina]

So polymorph is fine but the equivalent of an SLA of it isn't, interesting. Ah well, so much for thinking outside of the box.



Well a Steel Dragon with Loredrake makes it like they're a sorcerer-based 4th level Eldritch Knight with 2 LA. So it's not too horrible. Or give all that much beyond the alternate form.

Actually... Alternate form is not really a SLA equivalent of Polymorph. Alternate form is usually limited to a less forms than Polymorph. If you do have a SLA of Polymorph, you qualify for Warshaper.

I'm not familiar with Steel Dragon, so I can't say.

As for irrelevant LA... it does have a small effect from challenges (as they don't have the LA)

[true_shinken]

You want to be a steel dragon. You really want to be a steel dragon.
ECL 6 for wyrmling, with 4 dragon hit dice, sorcerer 1 casting, alternate form for any humanoid and anymal form and a good flying speed.
With 6 levels to play with, just take whatever full BAB class 1/Abjurant Champion 5. Take Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species and spend your day fighting as a legendary ape (Str 30!).
For bonus points, call yourself the Dragon Monkey King.

[2xMachina]

... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.

[Greenish]

... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.

Well, Mist and Mercury aren't so bad, either.

[true_shinken]

... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.

Mercury dragons are pretty good with their hit-and-run tactics as well. They have a ridiculously high fly speed as wyrmlings and are around the same ECL as mercury dragons. Get high initiative, Improved Flight, Flyby Attack and make the sky your bitch! Bonus points if you are a Warlock, a Dragonfire Adept or if you focus on your Sorcerer side and breath spells. Oooh yeah. Call yourself Blitzkrieg and go to town humming 'hey go let's go' as you devastate everything with the unholy fire of awesomeness.

[Greenish]

Get high initiative, Improved Flight, Flyby Attack

I don't think you can improve maneuverability from perfect.

[true_shinken]

I don't think you can improve maneuverability from perfect.

I could swear they started with good maneuverability.
Well, even better then.

[Gnaritas]

It could be that the Dragons from Dragons of Faerun are not allowed.

In that case the Steel Dragon is out. I have the following alternatives:

1. Pyroclastic Dragon Wyrmling Barbarian 1: focused on his Disintegrating Breath. With Heighten Breath, Ability Focus and Barbarian and a base CON of 22 the DC will be 28 (32 when raging). Plus i will be medium now and large after 3 RHD which will make me a bit of a decent melee-er.
2. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warlock 3 Swordsage 2: with Darkness, Devil's Sight and Assassin's Stance i can make 2d6 ranged touch attacks with 2d6 sneak attack.
3. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warblade 1 Sorcerer 1 Abjurant Champion 3:
Using the regular Wraithstrike + Power Attack i am still doing a measly 1d4+9 with a (touch) bite attack. But with a full attack this does get better.

[Czin]

It could be that the Dragons from Dragons of Faerun are not allowed.

In that case the Steel Dragon is out. I have the following alternatives:

1. Pyroclastic Dragon Wyrmling Barbarian 1: focused on his Disintegrating Breath. With Heighten Breath, Ability Focus and Barbarian and a base CON of 22 the DC will be 28 (32 when raging). Plus i will be medium now and large after 3 RHD which will make me a bit of a decent melee-er.
2. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warlock 3 Swordsage 2: with Darkness, Devil's Sight and Assassin's Stance i can make 2d6 ranged touch attacks with 2d6 sneak attack.
3. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warblade 1 Sorcerer 1 Abjurant Champion 3:
Using the regular Wraithstrike + Power Attack i am still doing a measly 1d4+9 with a (touch) bite attack. But with a full attack this does get better.

Shadow Dragons give me nightmares....

...So much...level drain....the horror...the horror!

Spam level draining attacks with your shadow dragons like there is no tomorrow, doing anything else doesn't do the dragon type justice.

[true_shinken]

Spam level draining attacks with your shadow dragons like there is no tomorrow, doing anything else doesn't do the dragon type justice.

Yes. Yes!
Spam like there is no tomorrow, because there is no tomorrow... for them!

[2xMachina]

Shall we start fearing the Wight-apocalypse?

[Coidzor]

Shall we start fearing the Wight-apocalypse?

You can't become a wight if you get et. Saves on food bills, which with a dragon might actually be an inconvenience.