Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[zimmerwald1915]

I think we've yet to see proof, but it's possible that going through enough of those dungeons has enabled Redcloak to go up a level or even two.

Does it matter very much? Everything Redcloak would get between levels 17 and 21 of Cleric is pretty much window dressing.

[Quartz]

Don't forget that Redcloak may have modifiers to the Rebuke Undead roll which make rolling 22+ much easier. He has at least +1 from Charisma, Unhallow would grant him +4, Improved Turning +1, and Combine Turning (from Ghostwalk) gives +4. That's a possible +10 or more straight off for a roll of 12+ (at worst). I'm sure there are further ways of boosting a Rebuke Undead check.

Just for completeness' sake, the glaring one I missed is +2 from 5 ranks in Religion.

[Quartz]

Does it matter very much? Everything Redcloak would get between levels 17 and 21 of Cleric is pretty much window dressing.

True, apart from Rebuke Undead if Xykon really is low level epic, but it's something for which we can look out.

[Douglas]

Does it matter very much? Everything Redcloak would get between levels 17 and 21 of Cleric is pretty much window dressing.

The primary noteworthy thing it would affect is how many 9th level spells he could cast in one day.

[Emanick]

Does it matter very much? Everything Redcloak would get between levels 17 and 21 of Cleric is pretty much window dressing.

I took Quartz's comment as a suggestion that we should change RC's level from "17" to "17+", which, while a very small change, is one I fully support.

[Quartz]

Yes, thank you.

I have a nitpick on Redcloak. He's listed as having CHA 12+ based on his being able to Rebuke Undead 4 times per day. But could this not be explained by him having taken the Extra Turning feat, which grants an extra 4 attempts? Personally I think that CHA 12+ is more likely from his portrayal, but Extra Turning is an alternative explanation.

[Ephemera]

Does it matter very much?

Methinks thou dost question the very essence of this thread, sirrah!

[Lombard]

This has probably come up before and I am curious. When Xykon casts whatever he cast on the MitD in SoD, and when he casts whatever he casts in panel 5 here, is that evidence of silent spell or just narrative license? I noticed that Xykon doesn't have silent spell listed.

[Ephemera]

This has probably come up before and I am curious. When Xykon casts whatever he cast on the MitD in SoD, and when he casts whatever he casts in panel 5 here, is that evidence of silent spell or just narrative license? I noticed that Xykon doesn't have silent spell listed.

Yah, this has come up, and is answered in the faq:

Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

[Lombard]

Yah, this has come up, and is answered in the faq:

Thanks, sorry for not reading through that FAQ.

[Jasdoif]

I thought it was the lich's negative energy attack instead of a spell, anyway.

[Moreorlersser]

Someone should try to do Vaarsuvius in her soul spliced form. Not sure at all how easy that would be.

Also, this is my first post. Yay.

[Peelee]

Someone should try to do Vaarsuvius in her soul spliced form. Not sure at all how easy that would be.

Also, this is my first post. Yay.

I don't think we have any metrics for the splices other than class, half an alignment, and level as somewhere at or above epic

[illyahr]

I don't know if it matters all that much, but we now have an actual page to link to for V's Extend Spell feat as of 1051.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think we have any metrics for the splices other than class, half an alignment, and level as somewhere at or above epic

Oh, we know their full alignments by the colors of their auras and speech bubbles, which match their Directors'. Jephton's yellow, thus LE, Haerta's purple, thus NE, and Ganonron's orange, thus CE.

Not that that's much more information, mind.

[Peelee]

Oh, we know their full alignments by the colors of their auras and speech bubbles, which match their Directors'. Jephton's yellow, thus LE, Haerta's purple, thus NE, and Ganonron's orange, thus CE.

Not that that's much more information, mind.

Huh..something for the Thing I Never Noticed thread. Thanks!

[arrowed]

I don't think V's level actually changed when the Splice occurred, the IFFC specifically says effective character level rather than level. It seems more like V can just use each spliced soul's spells as their own, along with their caster level and spellcraft modifier (otherwise I doubt V would be able to manage Familicide, and Redcloak says V's caster level is greater than he can overcome in #653) We do have some relatively small knowledge on Haerta and co. though, so they might be doable.

[Ephemera]

We definitely know a few things about the three souls who were spliced, but very little of what we know about spliced V passes the level of informed speculation, especially since the whole thing is most definitely house-ruled (which further limits what we can conclude about it based on any evidence we have).

That being the case, I personally don't think we could fill out enough of a statblock that meets the evidence standards we usually apply to be worth it.

[Quartz]

Edit - maths error on my part.

[Quartz]

So, how can Haley & V have killed all those giants in #1052? Frost Giants have an average of 133 HP.

If V Maximised Fireball, she does 90 HP damage; if not 52 HP average. Frost Giants have the Cold subtype so take 50% extra damage

Haley is using her Icy Burst bow so the targets take the +5 damage from the +5 but no damage from the Icy Burst. She does Sneak Attack Damage doing 1d8 (base) +5 (dex) +5 (+5 bow) + 8d6 (Sneak Attack) for a maximum of 66 HP damage per shot or 72 if we bump her to 17th level and an average damage of 42 or 45 HP.

That's a maximum of 156 or 162 HP damage - more than enough - but an average of 94 or 97 damage - nowhere near enough.

However, if V Maximises Fireball but Haley does average damage, then we get damage of 132 or 135 HP.

132 HP would leave the giant with 1 HP.

So V cast a Maximised Fireball and Haley is now 17th level.

Edit: it's possible that V cast Greater Magic Weapon on Haley's arrows but V doesn't have it on her spell list and it's not shown as being cast in the comic.

[Quartz]

Speaking of Haley, I see her listed with a Str of 13-16 due to her pulling the cart, but might not she have been using Roy's magic belt at the time?

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking of Haley, I see her listed with a Str of 13-16 due to her pulling the cart, but might not she have been using Roy's magic belt at the time?

Roy got the belt 164 strips after the strip cited for the proposition that Haley can drag the cart. So no, probably not.

So, how can Haley & V have killed all those giants in #1052? Frost Giants have an average of 133 HP.

If V Maximised Fireball, she does 90 HP damage; if not 52 HP average. Frost Giants have the Cold subtype so take 50% extra damage

Haley is using her Icy Burst bow so the targets take the +5 damage from the +5 but no damage from the Icy Burst. She does Sneak Attack Damage doing 1d8 (base) +5 (dex) +5 (+5 bow) + 8d6 (Sneak Attack) for a maximum of 66 HP damage per shot or 72 if we bump her to 17th level and an average damage of 42 or 45 HP.

That's a maximum of 156 or 162 HP damage - more than enough - but an average of 94 or 97 damage - nowhere near enough.

However, if V Maximises Fireball but Haley does average damage, then we get damage of 132 or 135 HP.

132 HP would leave the giant with 1 HP.

So V cast a Maximised Fireball and Haley is now 17th level.

Edit: it's possible that V cast Greater Magic Weapon on Haley's arrows but V doesn't have it on her spell list and it's not shown as being cast in the comic.

Not that it's likely (neither metamagic feat was invoked), but you can apply both Maximize and Empower to a spell at the same time, for an average of 95 points of damage (130 points to the vulnerable frost giants). But why are we talking about averages when we can simply say V and Haley rolled high?

[Jasdoif]

Haley is using her Icy Burst bow so the targets take the +5 damage from the +5 but no damage from the Icy Burst. She does Sneak Attack Damage doing 1d8 (base) +5 (dex) +5 (+5 bow) + 8d6 (Sneak Attack) for a maximum of 66 HP damage per shot or 72 if we bump her to 17th level and an average damage of 42 or 45 HP.

You don't normally add Dex to damage, so it'd be 61 max (non-crit) for a level 16 Haley.

That's a maximum of 156 or 162 HP damage - more than enough -

It'd be 151 max with the above adjustment (60 max because of fireball's damage cap, increase to 90 because of fire vulnerability; plus 61 for max non-crit pointy death)...which is still more than enough. You're going to have a hard time proving Vaarsuvius and Haley both made less-than-really-good rolls on any given scene the Giant chooses to portray.

Edit: it's possible that V cast Greater Magic Weapon on Haley's arrows but V doesn't have it on her spell list and it's not shown as being cast in the comic.

The enhancement bonuses from the bow and arrows don't stack in 3.5; and it's already a +5 bow.

Speaking of Haley, I see her listed with a Str of 13-16 due to her pulling the cart, but might not she have been using Roy's magic belt at the time?

Haley dragged the cart in #523; Roy got the magic belt in #687. So barring time travel, probably not.

[Quartz]

Not that it's likely (neither metamagic feat was invoked), but you can apply both Maximize and Empower to a spell at the same time, for an average of 95 points of damage (130 points to the vulnerable frost giants).

Good point: that would require an 8th level slot, and V has those.

[MesiDoomstalker]

With Haley getting 4 attacks, this proves she has 11 BAB and thus level 16 rogue? I know we have the eco calls but iirc comic evidence is stronger evidence.

[Jasdoif]

With Haley getting 4 attacks, this proves she has 11 BAB and thus level 16 rogue?

+11 BAB for three iterative attacks and Rapid Shot for a fourth, yes.

[Douglas]

Two iteratives, Rapid Shot, and Haste from the boots would also add up to four attacks. The boots aren't glowing, though, so I think the 11 BAB conclusion is correct.

[Reboot]

Not that it's likely (neither metamagic feat was invoked), but you can apply both Maximize and Empower to a spell at the same time, for an average of 95 points of damage (130 points to the vulnerable frost giants).

I would rule it out entirely - while Rich occasionally has characters cast a spell without visibly speaking (even without Silent Spell) if it isn't the focus of a panel - if they call the spell out, they always call out a non-Silent metamagic (as recently as the previous strip's casting of Extended Greater Invisibility)

So, how can Haley & V have killed all those giants in #1052? Frost Giants have an average of 133 HP.

If V Maximised Fireball, she does 90 HP damage; if not 52 HP average. Frost Giants have the Cold subtype so take 50% extra damage

Haley is using her Icy Burst bow so the targets take the +5 damage from the +5 but no damage from the Icy Burst. She does Sneak Attack Damage doing 1d8 (base) +5 (dex) +5 (+5 bow) + 8d6 (Sneak Attack) for a maximum of 66 HP damage per shot or 72 if we bump her to 17th level and an average damage of 42 or 45 HP.

That's a maximum of 156 or 162 HP damage - more than enough - but an average of 94 or 97 damage - nowhere near enough....

But why are we talking about averages when we can simply say V and Haley rolled high?

I would go further and say that there has never been "an average roll" in the entirety of OotS, either for HP or for damage. For story reasons, it's convenient for a "roll" to be either high or low - Rich has even said that Disintegrate is one of his favourite spells for characters like V and Redcloak to use because it's very "swingy", doing either virtually nothing or completely obliterating depending on what's better for the story. So all the Frost Giants probably had very low HP, while V and Haley probably rolled very well on damage.

[Best way to retroactively move yourself from the "low HP rolls" group to the "high HP rolls" group? Get a name!]

[Quartz]

But why are we talking about averages when we can simply say V and Haley rolled high?

Have you checked the title of this thread? :)

But your question does actually deserve a serious answer. When we are dealing with a roll of one or two dice, maybe three, then taking the minimum or maximum as appropriate is entirely sensible. But more dice than that makes it sensible for the purposes of this thread to assume the average. It's nearly 30 years since I studied statistics seriously, but I still remember the binomial distribution.

[Tobtor]

Have you checked the title of this thread? :)

But your question does actually deserve a serious answer. When we are dealing with a roll of one or two dice, maybe three, then taking the minimum or maximum as appropriate is entirely sensible. But more dice than that makes it sensible for the purposes of this thread to assume the average. It's nearly 30 years since I studied statistics seriously, but I still remember the binomial distribution.

That is NOT the consensus of the thread. Last time it was brought up it was not agreed upon by the majority. Some suggested to use a 99% (or a 99.99%), but this is far from average (but even that was not agreed upon).

'Average' is not used in this thread as I see it. We can't deduce a specific result from an average (this much I know about statistics). Too many rolls (most rolls really, and in many cases 'the average' is impossible to get) will not be the average.

The thread usually use min-max as the basis. You are welcome to add a 99% confidence interval calculation on Haleys damage in the current scene, however its going to be closer to the min-max than to the average.