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Thread: Frenzied Berserker
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2012-11-15, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he attacks them as non-allies, and thus doesn't have a Will check to snap out of it because more than allies are left on the field, or he doesn't treat them as valid threats, makes a will check, and if he fails, goes after the party. Pick one.
He cannot do anything agains invisible opponents anyway. We are NOT looking for absolute and complete 100% solution, because there aren't any, we're looking for a set of tactis that will let the party wait out the frenzy, that's pretty much enough.
People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.
Compare with a Dread Necro who can fear lockdown as a passive aura + Aura of Terror spell. And have disposable minions each more powerful in combat than Takahashi is. And who is immune to Takahashi's one trick. And who can still cast 9th level spells. And that's touted as a Tier 3 class.
Sure, he was a cute trick, but don't mistake him for anything else.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-11-15 at 05:02 PM.
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2012-11-15, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe you could use a merciful weapon. I don't know if you are allowed to use nonlethal damage when in a frenzy, but a merciful weapon would allow you to attack nonlethaly without reducing your attack bonus, thus enabling you to do so while attacking to your best ability, just like the text demands.
Also, 1d6 bonus damage on top of that.
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2012-11-15, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2012-11-15, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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2012-11-15, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....
...
Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.
I think I am going to approach my dm about house ruling frenzy as a mind altering as it is making do things my character wouldn't do normally.Last edited by Ginger; 2012-11-15 at 07:48 PM.
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2012-11-15, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Righteous Wrath can stop a FB. Rage and frenzy can be active simultaneously and as long as the rage is on, so is righteous Wrath. If the frenzy was activated first (practically a given) then the rage will outlast it.
This doesn't help the op at all since he's not interested in playing an exalted character though.
Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.
If the other beatstick in the party has the elusive target feat then the FB's major source of damage, power attack, becomes a non-issue as well, dropping him back to just [w]+str*1.5. Combined with the suggestion to throw away his weapon this gets him down to 1d4+str*1.5 non-lethal against another melee pc. I don't see that being difficult to survive.
On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.
The slave collar mentioned above has potential though you need to be sure the guy controlling the FB is lower in the initiative.
Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.
Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.
If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.
The FB has to be played carefully and responsibly, but that doesn't mean it's unplayable.
Btw, not pouncing isn't the end of the world. If you can do more than 50 damage on one attack your charge is a save-or-die (with an admittedly low DC) regardless of how much actual damage it does and anything beyond 300 total for a charge is going to automatically kill almost anything in the MM.
Looking at the numbers in Ginger's post. If he was making a single attack instead of pouncing he'd still be doing over 500 damage on that one attack. Why do you need more than that? Or if you absolutely must pounce, drop some of the charge multipliers. 5 attacks that do 100 damage each is just as good as one attack that does 500; better even since the odds of getting 5 natural 1's in a row are absurdly low.
The problem isn't so much the FB as the inability to not over-optimize the FB. What in the world do you need 2500+ damage to kill?I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-15, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Dunno how useful this is now, but generally when I build a FB one of my failsafes is DR. A simple +1LA mineral warrior or quasilycanthrope template is usually enough to stop unwanted instances of Frenzy.
Granted, it won't stop everything, but it will stop the toe stubbing, random bar fight, kid throwing a rock, ect from making you kill an entire town.
Also for the RAW pains in the ass: If you say a falling plate bypasses DR since it wasn't an attack...a god wizard will sneak up on you while you are sleeping and PAO you permanently into a Monk.
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2012-11-16, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.
Of course, this could also end with the entire party unconscious or him still killing one before they can turn him back to nonlethal, but it's still better than everyone dying. It also solves the problem of him starting to kill people inside of towns. He'll still probably knock someone out, but at least he won't kill anyone.
Edit: If there is a wizard in the party, he could also convinve him to prepare a few celerities to use for speaking the command word in emergencies.
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2012-11-16, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?
IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.
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2012-11-16, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-16, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
From Psychonauts -
Lungfish Civilian: (describing Goggalor) He's impervious to bullets! ... and love!
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2012-11-16, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
Sorry, but now I have to question if you know how Frenzy works, because what you describe here sure as hell isn't Frenzy.
During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own).
Also, another thing that needs to be pointed out:
To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the
frenzy immediately; failure means it continues
Really? You don't evolve a method of See Invis by mid-levels? How do you deal with invisible opponents?
That would be a fatal mistake in most games I play in. Heck, invisible snipers plinking him until he Frenzies would be... detrimental to the party's health.
Define 'useful'.
Takahashi beat a Monk/FotF. That's... not exactly a strong commendation. He is a one-trick pony, that a significantly increasing number of opponents as you level will be immune to. He's, at best, Tier 4. He's a One Trick Pony... with plenty of things out there immune to his one trick.
I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....
Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.Last edited by Man on Fire; 2012-11-16 at 12:14 PM.
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2012-11-16, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Frenzied Berserker
Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.
On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.
Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.
And where would you get the reroll option from?
Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.
If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.
Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.
Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?
IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.
I like Supreme Power Attack. Honestly, the frenzy is just icing.
Also, fogs aren't high level magics.
As for fogs, unfortunately they are also not safe to let the berserker burn off his rage inside.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-11-16, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-16, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
So no, there is nothing that states FB must considers people she attack either non-allies or cannot attack oponents she doesn't consider a threat.
During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own).
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2012-11-16, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: Frenzied Berserker
Consider the fact that the part when FB starts attacking the players is in the phase where she must attack every nearest creature.
Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature
Also, no matter what it still doesnt change the fact that FB can attempt to end Frenzy whenever they want, not when there are not foes arround. So either way Sheeky's argument is still invaild.
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2012-11-16, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
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2012-11-18, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Frenzied Berserker
IHS to turn off grease.
Silly, but I felt it had to be mentioned.
I have a paladin that could probably tank the Berserker, at least long enough for someone to have whatever fail-safe go off. his ac is mid 60's at level 14, looks to cap around 78.
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2012-11-18, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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