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Thread: So, Malack...

  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    As long as any offer acceptable to Malack entails the Order surrendering one inch of ground towards the Rift, then Durkon is well within his rights to not compromise, even if he is being undiplomatic in his tone.
    That's right. The "sad" thing here is that Durkon did not seek to turn Malack's willingness to compromise to his advantage in proposing terms that would have been of more benefit to his team.

    They might still ended up fighting if no common ground is found, but at least he would have tried and knowing that Malack hate Nale, Durkon should be able to guess that Malack is not in the ride happily and use that to turn the tables in some way. I would have give this a shot, at least, in Durkon's shoes.

    And the first proposal from Malack wasn't all that bad, though you'd need to be a bit more "Haley minded" to see that. The terms were only not to hurt each other. If the rest of the order were to kick Malack's ass, it's fair game. Same to heal them if Malack goes wild on them.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    To be fair, Malack was being reasonable in offering that each of them retreat from the battlefield. He was being reasonable when suggesting that, should they stay, neither would harm the other. Malack wanted to remain friends with Durkon despite them being on different teams, but Durkon refused his offer because Malack is "a frickin' vampire". Racism, if you ask me.
    Since when are vampires a race?

    Durkon is being as racist here as Elan was when he refused compromise with his father.

    Heroes don't "compromise" with Evil.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    It's a bad idea to tell someone there's enough power to destroy the world, when they're capable of being reasonable? That makes no sense at all.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Since when are vampires a race?

    Durkon is being as racist here as Elan was when he refused compromise with his father.

    Heroes don't "compromise" with Evil.
    Elan is human. Tarquin is human.
    Durkon is a dwarf. Malack is a vampire.

    Call it what you will, but to absolutely refuse to associate or compromise with an individual based on preconceived notions of their activities by their race (or type, or affliction, or whatever you want to call it) is still racist. D&D terms are not exactly clear on what specifies a race or species within their rules, so it is open to anyone's interpretation.

    You could call it racism, bigotry, or just unwillingness to see the point of view of another.

    And to say that Heroes don't compromise with Evil is incredibly narrow minded.
    Last edited by Rakoa; 2013-02-26 at 06:25 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Heroes don't "compromise" with Evil.
    Absolutely everyone with Tarquin before he knew of the Gate.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Well, does Nale know it contains the power to destroy the world?
    Yes, he heard Shojo talk about the Gates and the Snarl as not-elan and then told Sabine who told the archfiends.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Elan is human. Tarquin is human.
    Durkon is a dwarf. Malack is a vampire.
    Elan is a living human. Tarquin is (...as far as we know anyway) a living human. Durkon is a living dwarf. Malack is a dead lizardfolk. Say "prejudiced against the life impaired," if you want.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Elan is a living human. Tarquin is (...as far as we know anyway) a living human. Durkon is a living dwarf. Malack is a dead lizardfolk. Say "prejudiced against the life impaired," if you want.
    Well, it is said that you should never speak ill of the dead.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Absolutely everyone with Tarquin before he knew of the Gate.
    Ehm... "he got us grabbed by the balls 'cuz he knows critical info about the man we are looking for" and "unfortunately, we are too busy trying to avoid the end of the world to care about Tarquin - for now" are very different from "I'm gonna stand aside while my friends battle for the Gate over which the destiny of the World is hanging"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Elan is human. Tarquin is human.
    Durkon is a dwarf. Malack is a vampire.
    No. Malack was a lizarfolk. Durkon has no problem with his former species, just with the fact that Malack is now an evil abomination who needs to feed on the lifeforce of the living.

    And, since Durkon just saved Belkar from being sucked up by Malak and turned into a vampire spawn... I guess it's not fair to describe Durkon's actitude as working under "Preconceived notions of their activities".
    .
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2013-02-26 at 06:46 PM.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Ehm... "he got us grabbed by the balls 'cuz he knows critical info about the man we are looking for" and "unfortunately, we are too busy trying to avoid the end of the world to care about Tarquin - for now" are very different from "I'm gonna stand aside while my friends battle for the Gate over which the destiny of the World is hanging"
    It is, however, a compromise.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    \And, since Durkon just saved Belkar from being sucked up by Malak and turned into a vampire spawn... I guess it's not fair to describe Durkon's actitude as working under "Preconceived notions of their activities".
    .
    Really? Because in the strip right before this, Durkon immediately assumes upon learning Malack is a vampire that he goes around drinking the blood of the innocent.

    And in case you didn't bother to read my above post...I already said you can call it whatever you want, not specifically racism. Bigotry works, prejudice works, racism works, hatred of the living impaired works. Don't get hung up on the technicalities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chantelune View Post
    That's right. The "sad" thing here is that Durkon did not seek to turn Malack's willingness to compromise to his advantage in proposing terms that would have been of more benefit to his team.

    They might still ended up fighting if no common ground is found, but at least he would have tried and knowing that Malack hate Nale, Durkon should be able to guess that Malack is not in the ride happily and use that to turn the tables in some way. I would have give this a shot, at least, in Durkon's shoes.

    And the first proposal from Malack wasn't all that bad, though you'd need to be a bit more "Haley minded" to see that. The terms were only not to hurt each other. If the rest of the order were to kick Malack's ass, it's fair game. Same to heal them if Malack goes wild on them.
    Well, we can say Durkon was unreasonable to immediately refuse further negotiations, but by the same token you could say that Malack was unreasonable to immediately resort to lethal force in the face of Durkon's refusal to negotiate.
    I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    It is, however, a compromise.
    No, it was not. The OOTS was not yelding in their objectives, neither accepting to advance Tarquin's. Also, Tarquin was not an opponent force back then.

    And, despite that, Elan attemped to put Tarquin out of bussines the very moment he found out his Dad was Evil - and would have done so, should he had been capable of out-pun him.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    Well, we can say Durkon was unreasonable to immediately refuse further negotiations, but by the same token you could say that Malack was unreasonable to immediately resort to lethal force in the face of Durkon's refusal to negotiate.
    Eh, he's still 'on business', as it were. That was the inevitable conclusion if a peaceful resolution couldn't be reached.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Really? Because in the strip right before this, Durkon immediately assumes upon learning Malack is a vampire that he goes around drinking the blood of the innocent.
    Correctly. The fact that Malack thinks being convicted in an Empire of Blood court makes someone no longer innocent in some morally meaningful way is not to Malack's credit.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    Well, we can say Durkon was unreasonable to immediately refuse further negotiations, but by the same token you could say that Malack was unreasonable to immediately resort to lethal force in the face of Durkon's refusal to negotiate.
    I would agree to this, but what other choice did Malack have? Durkon has already admitted that there would never be anything more than animosity between them from now on, and so Durkon would remain as a threat to both Malack, Tarquin and the entire Linear Guild. With compromise off of the table, attacking Durkon is the best choice for both his own safety and that of his allies, especially whereas the rest of the OotS is not present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Correctly. The fact that Malack thinks being convicted in an Empire of Blood court makes someone no longer innocent in some morally meaningful way is not to Malack's credit.
    Perhaps. But considering these people are doomed to die by execution anyway, they don't exactly need the blood. The fact is, Malack is not breaking into houses (well, he can't do that as a Vampire anyway) and snatching up people with long lives ahead of them and feasting away.
    Last edited by Rakoa; 2013-02-26 at 06:56 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Elan is human. Tarquin is human.
    Durkon is a dwarf. Malack is a vampire.

    Call it what you will, but to absolutely refuse to associate or compromise with an individual based on preconceived notions of their activities by their race (or type, or affliction, or whatever you want to call it) is still racist.
    Yes, it is. Good thing that's not what Durkon is doing.

    It is not a "preconception" that Malack was in the middle of draining Belkar's blood by force, or that Malack just admitted to benefiting from the executions that he himself helped put into place. And as I mentioned in the main discussion thread, Durkon is not JUST reacting to Malack's vampirism here; a few strips ago, he was willing to argue with Haley that Malack couldn't possibly team up with Nale to seize the Gate—a belief he has just had disproven.

    If Durkon had been sitting in Malack's study drinking tea with him, recognized what was in it, and jumped up and yelled, "Yer a vampire! I must kill ye!" then that would be racism, because there would be no evidence that Malack was at all a threat to anyone, anywhere. That is not what is happening in this scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Really? Because in the strip right before this, Durkon immediately assumes upon learning Malack is a vampire that he goes around drinking the blood of the innocent.
    Malack does not know Belkar at all. He does not know that Belkar is not innocent, and Durkon knows that Malack does not know.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Eh, he's still 'on business', as it were. That was the inevitable conclusion if a peaceful resolution couldn't be reached.
    Or, he could have surrendered to the good and righteous, and relinquished his material and formal cooperation with evil schemes.

    That he fails to do so doesn't mean he's not evil, in fact I'd say his going into vamp mode and attacking proves he's a true believer in Tarquin's side.

    Just because he's doing what's best for his current interests, does not mean his interests are for the good.

    Or for the neutral.
    I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    And as I mentioned in the main discussion thread, Durkon is not JUST reacting to Malack's vampirism here; a few strips ago, he was willing to argue with Haley that Malack couldn't possibly team up with Nale to seize the Gate—a belief he has just had disproven.
    My apologies, I find it difficult to keep up with the frequent additions to the main thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Malack does not know Belkar at all. He does not know that Belkar is not innocent, and Durkon knows that Malack does not know.
    This was not something I had thought of. I digress.
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    Or, he could have surrendered to the good and righteous, and relinquished his material and formal cooperation with evil schemes.

    That he fails to do so doesn't mean he's not evil, in fact I'd say his going into vamp mode and attacking proves he's a true believer in Tarquin's side.

    Just because he's doing what's best for his current interests, does not mean his interests are for the good.

    Or for the neutral.
    To just give up like that would require valuing Durkon's friendship above Tarquin's. That is ridiculously unlikely, regardless of his exact alignment.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Perhaps. But considering these people are doomed to die by execution anyway, they don't exactly need the blood. The fact is, Malack is not breaking into houses (well, he can't do that as a Vampire anyway) and snatching up people with long lives ahead of them and feasting away.
    No. He is--as Durkon pointed out--participating in making rules which bring innocent people's long lives to an abbreviated end. This argument is no more valid than, "He wasn't going to live anyway, because I'd already broken his neck."

    Loyalty to something like Tarquin is not a morally neutral quality. Tarquin's favored son realizes that. Why doesn't Malack? I mean, other than "because Malack is nearly as evil as Tarquin himself."
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-02-26 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    To just give up like that would require valuing Durkon's friendship above Tarquin's. That is ridiculously unlikely, regardless of his exact alignment.
    So? It's the right thing to do, which Malack has now shown his pointed unwillingness to do.
    I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    No. He is--as Durkon pointed out--participating in making rules which bring innocent people's long lives to an abbreviated end. This argument is no more valid than, "He wasn't going to live anyway, because I'd already broken his neck."
    The extent of his participation within the Empire has not been fully explored. If Malack personally designed these laws, I would agree with you. If he spent his time convincing Tarquin to make them less harsh, I would not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    So? It's the right thing to do, which Malack has now shown his pointed unwillingness to do.
    To not do the right thing in favour of loyalty is a lawful outlook, and one of either neutral or evil standing.
    Last edited by Rakoa; 2013-02-26 at 07:09 PM.
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    So? It's the right thing to do, which Malack has now shown his pointed unwillingness to do.
    I fully disagree with you on its being the right thing to do. In fact, it seems the absolute worst choice.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paseo H View Post
    So? It's the right thing to do, which Malack has now shown his pointed unwillingness to do.
    No, it would be the right thing to do if he was Good. Betraying a friend that is Evil to an ex-friend that is Good is the wrong thing to do if you are Neutral or, of course, Evil.

    That said, Rich has just quite clearly hinted that Malack is Evil in his post. So at this point I'll withdraw my position on "Malack might be Neutral".

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it would be the right thing to do if he was Good. Betraying a friend that is Evil to an ex-friend that is Good is the wrong thing to do if you are Neutral or, of course, Evil.
    Uh? The good thing to do is the right thing to do. Someone who is evil is someone who reliably doesn't do the right thing, not someone who has a different set of Right Things to Do.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it would be the right thing to do if he was Good. Betraying a friend that is Evil to an ex-friend that is Good is the wrong thing to do if you are Neutral or, of course, Evil.

    That said, Rich has just quite clearly hinted that Malack is Evil in his post. So at this point I'll withdraw my position on "Malack might be Neutral".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Uh? The good thing to do is the right thing to do. Someone who is evil is someone who reliably doesn't do the right thing, not someone who has a different set of Right Things to Do.
    ...and someone who is neutral will favour their secondary alignment, which is that of Law in this case. Showing loyalty to a friend rather than "Doing the right thing" (the right thing being subjective to point of view) is consistent with a Lawful Neutral alignment.
    Last edited by Rakoa; 2013-02-26 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    No good. Even if Malack was Good-aligned, the negative energy that animates him would trigger Detect Evil, in the same way Xykon's crown made Roy appear strongly evil.

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    No good. Even if Malack was Good-aligned, the negative energy that animates him would trigger Detect Evil, in the same way Xykon's crown made Roy appear strongly evil.
    Quite true. I was joking, regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The Half-Hamster template gives me advantageous size and ability score bonuses, and combos well with my inherited Elderberry Radiance (Ex). Which is more than I can say for you, you class-dipping CL-losing Evoker!
    I was eating THOSE BEANS!!

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    Default Re: So, Malack...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Uh? The good thing to do is the right thing to do.
    Oh come on, that's so silly, Malack should just go on and do whatever his heart tells him, don't be such a Durkon.
    I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish

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