What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

[Shadowknight12]

You do realize that an entire class of villains in literature and gaming depends upon such things, right?

Nope. Only a small (yet bizarrely and disproportionately popular) subset of "evil" is self-deluded. Most forms of "evil" are perfectly self-aware that they are evil and either actively enjoy it or don't care (most don't care).

I theorise that the reason self-deluded evil is so common in fiction is because stories are mainly a form of escapism and most people don't want to be reminded of how reality actually is.

Well, you can know your preforming your task adequately by the results.
Is Evil been destroyed? Yes or No?
If No, Destroy Evil.
If Yes, Destroy more Evil.
Are you been subverted?
Impossible!
***
Self deception is a very, very human emotion.

A problem which is adequately solved by increasing intelligence. Or wisdom. I forget which. An increase in the appropriate attribute leads to a corresponding increase in self-checks, which leads to a corresponding resistance to subversion. Self-delusion is counter-productive to most activities (escapism aside). That's elementary and frankly too obvious to even debate.

By assumption. And by not being a robot. Tends to help.

I have no idea what you're saying.

[Coidzor]

I have no idea what you're saying.

Humans don't run perfectly accurate self-diagnostics, nor do they usually run diagnostics unless they're forced to or they have a particular worry or doubt in themselves.

I believe that's what he was getting at, anyway.

[Tengu_temp]

Nope. Only a small (yet bizarrely and disproportionately popular) subset of "evil" is self-deluded. Most forms of "evil" are perfectly self-aware that they are evil and either actively enjoy it or don't care (most don't care).

Actually, it's the complete opposite. Most evil people do not consider themselves evil, in fiction or real life. They use justifications like "I'm just doing what I must to survive" or "I'm doing this for the greater good" or "the world would be so much better under my rule". Self-aware Xykon-types who know well they are evil and embrace it wholeheartedly are very rare and have to be pulled off well in order not to come as two-dimensional cartoon villains.

[Benjuri]

Actually, it's the complete opposite. Most evil people do not consider themselves evil, in fiction or real life. They use justifications like "I'm just doing what I must to survive" or "I'm doing this for the greater good" or "the world would be so much better under my rule". Self-aware Xykon-types who know well they are evil and embrace it wholeheartedly are very rare and have to be pulled off well in order not to come as two-dimensional cartoon villains.

This. Almost no one says "I'm evil. LOLOLOLOL. Let's go kill kittens." At best, people say, "Okay, I've done some bad things. I had my reasons."

Also, there are very, very intelligent people both IRL and in fiction who are have an incredible ability to self-deceive or act illogically. If all the smart people were capable of acting perfectly logically, we'd live in a perfect world. Don't kid yourself into thinking that because someone's smart everything they do will make perfect sense or will be uncoloured by their biases.

[Ravens_cry]

A problem which is adequately solved by increasing intelligence. Or wisdom. I forget which. An increase in the appropriate attribute leads to a corresponding increase in self-checks, which leads to a corresponding resistance to subversion.

*falls over laughing*
You might want to go take a Turing test because you're practically failing here.

Self-delusion is counter-productive to most activities (escapism aside). That's elementary and frankly too obvious to even debate.

I think Shadow-bot 1.2 needs to get their programming debugged.
Humans . . .don't work like that.
Humans are, especially driven ones certain of their rightitude, are only introspective if some circumstance forces them to.
There is an old saying, "Go looking for trouble and you'll find it".
Go looking for evil to vanquish, and you'll find it, whatever it's true nature.
Self introspection would create doubt and doubt endangers the mission.
And even if they realize, "Hey, I'm actually what I am trying to destroy!" others and myself have laid out rationalizations which would allow one to continue without immediate self termination.

[Shadowknight12]

Humans don't run perfectly accurate self-diagnostics, nor do they usually run diagnostics unless they're forced to or they have a particular worry or doubt in themselves.

I believe that's what he was getting at, anyway.

*shrug*

I would disagree completely (we run self-diagnosis all the time, most just happen to be undramatic and very much unlike the crippling moments of self-doubt you describe), but that's not really the topic here.

EDIT:

*falls over laughing*
You might want to go take a Turing test because you're practically failing here.

I had to look that up. Interesting experiment.

I think Shadow-bot 1.2 needs to get their programming debugged.
Humans . . .don't work like that.
Humans are, especially driven ones certain of their rightitude, are only introspective if some circumstance forces them to.
There is an old saying, "Go looking for trouble and you'll find it".
Go looking for evil to vanquish, and you'll find it, whatever it's true nature.
Self introspection would create doubt and doubt endangers the mission.
And even if they realize, "Hey, I'm actually what I am trying to destroy!" others and myself have laid out rationalizations which would allow one to continue without immediate self termination.

All of that is true, but you can't undertake a mission of such significance ("END *ALL* GOOD, CHAOS, LAW AND EVIL!") without massive resources and mental capacities. I am presuming these massive mental capacities will be poured wisely, professionally and intelligently, not merely squandered as the leaders of this organisation make amateur mistakes as the ones you describe.

[Benjuri]

*shrug*

I would disagree completely (we run self-diagnosis all the time, most just happen to be undramatic and very much unlike the crippling moments of self-doubt you describe), but that's not really the topic here.

Reflect? Yes. Self-diagnose? No. It takes a lot to makes someone reevaluate themselves on the scale that would make them say, "Holy -beep-, I'm evil!"

[Shadowknight12]

Reflect? Yes. Self-diagnose? No. It takes a lot to makes someone reevaluate themselves on the scale that would make them say, "Holy -beep-, I'm evil!"

You know, there's a reason this topic is banned on these forums.

What? I'm not talking about religion or politics. Sigh. I'll edit just in case people really are that irrationally uptight.

[Ravens_cry]

All of that is true, but you can't undertake a mission of such significance ("END *ALL* GOOD, CHAOS, LAW AND EVIL!") without massive resources and mental capacities. I am presuming these massive mental capacities will be poured wisely, professionally and intelligently, not merely squandered as the leaders of this organisation make amateur mistakes as the ones you describe.

What mistake? If the mission is to continue, they must exist.
As I, and other's have pointed out, repeatedly, they can just . . .kill themselves last.
You yourself pointed out, but dismissed it as . . . boring?
Holy Self Delusion Batman!

[Shadowknight12]

What mistake? If the mission is to continue, they must exist.
As I, and other's have pointed out, repeatedly, they can just . . .kill themselves last.
You yourself pointed out, but dismissed it as . . . boring?
Holy Self Delusion Batman!

Being vulnerable to subversion is a mistake. If you're vulnerable to subversion and end up being a pawn of Good or Evil (or Law or Chaos), you are fundamentally hampering your own goals and no amount of "killing myself last" will solve it.

[Benjuri]

What? I'm not talking about religion or politics. Sigh. I'll edit just in case people really are that irrationally uptight.

Yeah, but you started to wander into the whole moral relativity thing, which is getting smacked with the lock-hammer more often than not these days. I'll edit mine too.

[Ravens_cry]

Being vulnerable to subversion is a mistake. If you're vulnerable to subversion and end up being a pawn of Good or Evil (or Law or Chaos), you are fundamentally hampering your own goals and no amount of "killing myself last" will solve it.

How does ones alignment work into that? As long as the mission continues, your alignment does not matter, only the mission matters.
Evil can still destroy evil.
What do you think the whole Blood War is, a big, Evil-subtype, love in?

[Shadowknight12]

How does ones alignment work into that? As long as the mission continues, your alignment does not matter, only the mission matters.
Evil can still destroy evil.
What do you think the whole Blood War is, a big, Evil-subtype, love in?

No, you're muddying the issue. I'm talking about ending up as the pawn of one alignment and therefore actively endangering your own mission. If you're fond of engaging in self-delusion, you can be easily deluded by other sources as well, which means that you can easily end up being Lawful Evil and fighting the forces of Good and Chaotic Evil, which may seem at first glance to be furthering your goals until you discovered you have been strengthening one of your enemies. If you're keen on fighting ALL evil, you cannot associate or benefit any form of evil or else you're putting your goals at risk (this is another reason "I'll kill myself last" is not very logical, if you're evil and you are not to associate with, improve or promote the goals of evil, you cannot associate with, improve or promote your own goals, which means you're immediately stuck in a permanent state of incongruence until you terminate yourself or stop being evil).

[Ravens_cry]

No, you're muddying the issue. I'm talking about ending up as the pawn of one alignment and therefore actively endangering your own mission. If you're fond of engaging in self-delusion, you can be easily deluded by other sources as well, which means that you can easily end up being Lawful Evil and fighting the forces of Good and Chaotic Evil, which may seem at first glance to be furthering your goals until you discovered you have been strengthening one of your enemies. If you're keen on fighting ALL evil, you cannot associate or benefit any form of evil or else you're putting your goals at risk (this is another reason "I'll kill myself last" is not very logical, if you're evil and you are not to associate with, improve or promote the goals of evil, you cannot associate with, improve or promote your own goals, which means you're immediately stuck in a permanent state of incongruence until you terminate yourself or stop being evil).

Simple solution, continue fighting everyone.
Which is what you were doing in the first place.
Well, that was easy.
Are you sure you're human?
You seem to have a very lax understanding of the sheer lengths of self delusion and doublethink people are willing to undertake.

[Shadowknight12]

Simple solution, continue fighting everyone.
Which is what you were doing in the first place.
Well, that was easy.
Are you sure you're human?
You seem to have a very lax understanding of the sheer lengths of self delusion and doublethink people are willing to undertake.

The goals of the organisation are not "fight everyone" they are "end Good, Evil, Law and Chaos" to save everything else. Clearly, fighting everyone to achieve those goals is much like trying to cure an infection by cremating the patient.

No, I understand. Like I said, I'm merely presuming that if this organisation is going to undertake such an EPIC task, they will need both epic resources and the epic mental capacities to properly take advantage of them. Said epic mental capacities would leave behind the petty refuge of self-delusion upon understanding it's a liability to be expunged.

[Eloel]

"Leave us alone, alien, we came first" is a True Neutral attitude by my book. How they do it might give some tendencies, or even switches towards some extremes (make them peacefully leave vs track them into their elemental planes and kill them there), but that's individuals and not organizations, as someone stated before me.

Also, "kill kittens vs burn orphans" argument is -very- flawed. Killing a Good, a Lawful, an Evil and a Chaotic outsider, all of exactly equal power, is True Neutral. They're not humans, they're literally reflections of alignments, they're not 'redeemable', and killing them tips the balance in exact ways.

[Solaris]

A problem which is adequately solved by increasing intelligence. Or wisdom. I forget which. An increase in the appropriate attribute leads to a corresponding increase in self-checks, which leads to a corresponding resistance to subversion. Self-delusion is counter-productive to most activities (escapism aside). That's elementary and frankly too obvious to even debate.

Fun fact, smart people are really, really good at convincing themselves of things. These things may or may not necessarily be true.

You're thinking of Wisdom, though. The point remains. Nobody is 'too smart' or 'too wise' to be evil.

[Shadowknight12]

Fun fact, smart people are really, really good at convincing themselves of things. These things may or may not necessarily be true.

You're thinking of Wisdom, though. The point remains. Nobody is 'too smart' or 'too wise' to be evil.

And I never said otherwise. I'm not talking about evil, I'm talking about self-delusion. An increase in the corresponding stat (wisdom, you say?) means a decrease in self-delusion. Wise evil knows it's evil and either doesn't care or actively enjoys it. After all, not all evil is the same. Some evil might be more schadenfreudian in nature, enjoying other people's misfortunes, rather than actively causing them.

[hamishspence]

And I never said otherwise. I'm not talking about evil, I'm talking about self-delusion. An increase in the corresponding stat (wisdom, you say?) means a decrease in self-delusion.

Doubt it. Some deluded characters are clerics or paladins- which tend to have higher wisdom than average.

Exemplars of Evil has a cleric of Corellon who, after being transformed by an drow enemy's dying curse into a perfect duplicate (looks-wise) of that enemy- ended up having to play that draw's role in society to survive.

Eventually she fell, Lolth started granting her powers instead- but since she had only one domain (Chaos) thanks to an alternative class feature- she never realised she'd fallen in the first place. She commits evil deeds, but refuses to accept that she's evil herself.

[Rorrik]

And most of this argument is banking on a very narrow definition of "fight evil". Even if an evil character isn't deluded, recognizes his own evil nature, and revels in it, that doesn't stop him from killing off other evil creatures as often as good ones for his own personal gain, enjoyment, or accruence of power.

[hamishspence]

A character who has embraced "Pay Evil Unto Evil" to the point of being extremely sadistic- might still be an eager ally of traditional good guys- at least as long as they don't catch the character "having fun" and stop them.

[LikeAD6]

I am going to have to argue for these druids being lawful good, even though druids cannot have that alignment in most editions and the druids seek to destroy lawful good outsiders. I do not think these druids are evil because druids who are "mathematically neutral" destroy good creatures to balance out their destruction of evil creatures. These druids, however, are destroying both good and evil creatures (as well as lawful and chaotic creatures) because these creatures and their gods represent an affront to the natural order that the druids are sworn to protect.

The Cabal appears to be structured in great detail, and the druids are completely devoted to its tenets and their duties, which I think makes them lawful. They are good because they are putting their lives on the line to protect their ideals of naturality. The druids believe the natural order of their world is worth protecting, and they do so selflessly. That does not seem to be evil or chaotic in any way.

[Epsilon Rose]

So, in order:
@ the OP: I think this document gives a to high level of an overview to make a judgement on the organisation it self, though I there are probably a disproportionately large number recruits coming from the deep end of the alignment pool. That said, I'd be willing to bet good money that at-least one of the ringleaders is LE. Genocide is bad folks.

@Shadowknight12: I am half way tempted to ask if you're trolling, but I might as well through in my 2 cents.
It is perfectly possible for evil to fight evil. For starters, as some have already pointed out, there's not really a coherent "team evil". To an evil character there's really very little difference between an angle and a devil who's in your way. As for being self deluding, no amount of wisdom or intelligence could possibly help with that.

The problem is that self delusion is a natural defense mechanism of the psyche. Any expanded resources are going to be put to the task of making it better. A higher wis will help you notice when others try to deceive you and might help you prune minor conflicting traits or identify ones that have already caused problems. Unfortunately in the case of a long held belief or something that's part of your core self (and considering yourself unaligned while really being LE would be both long held and extremely central to who you are) it's just going to help you come up with justifications and biased tests, a higher wisdom just means better justifications and more cunning tests. No amount of increased stats will circumvent this for exactly the reason you think it's impossible; from an evolutionary, instinctual and almost any other standpoint self-termination (or even real self harm) is basically the worst possible outcome (keep in mind, evolution wasn't taking your personal goals into account when it designed your defense mechanisms [it doesn't care that your continued existence might be a detriment to your goals]), it's game over, so all resources are going to be used to prevent that. And if that means your world view is a bit off? Oh well, that's why we have convenient phrases like "Umwelt" and it's not like you'll ever know differently.

Also, the document it self said they have know trouble associating with evil, they just don't do it normally because evil tends to be more destructive.

[Shadowknight12]

@Shadowknight12: I am half way tempted to ask if you're trolling, but I might as well through in my 2 cents.
It is perfectly possible for evil to fight evil. For starters, as some have already pointed out, there's not really a coherent "team evil". To an evil character there's really very little difference between an angle and a devil who's in your way. As for being self deluding, no amount of wisdom or intelligence could possibly help with that.

/facepalm. I never said evil couldn't fight evil. I'm saying that if you are sworn to destroy ALL evil, it's very stupid to become evil, for it means you will eventually have to destroy yourself.

The problem is that self delusion is a natural defense mechanism of the psyche. Any expanded resources are going to be put to the task of making it better. A higher wis will help you notice when others try to deceive you and might help you prune minor conflicting traits or identify ones that have already caused problems. Unfortunately in the case of a long held belief or something that's part of your core self (and considering yourself unaligned while really being LE would be both long held and extremely central to who you are) it's just going to help you come up with justifications and biased tests, a higher wisdom just means better justifications and more cunning tests. No amount of increased stats will circumvent this for exactly the reason you think it's impossible; from an evolutionary, instinctual and almost any other standpoint self-termination (or even real self harm) is basically the worst possible outcome (keep in mind, evolution wasn't taking your personal goals into account when it designed your defense mechanisms [it doesn't care that your continued existence might be a detriment to your goals]), it's game over, so all resources are going to be used to prevent that. And if that means your world view is a bit off? Oh well, that's why we have convenient phrases like "Umwelt" and it's not like you'll ever know differently.

Your view presumes psychology is A) Deterministic, B) Unchangeable, C) a product of biological evolution, and D) exactly the same in all individuals. I disagree on practically all accounts (as do most psychologists who are not specifically from that school of thought), so I won't actually debate any of that.

[Ravens_cry]

These people want to destroy, or at least negate every creature with an alignment subtype, including the Good ones.
Assuming Good actually means good, and not just a label, that's evidence enough these characters are delusional.

[Shadowknight12]

These people want to destroy, or at least negate every creature with an alignment subtype, including the Good ones.
Assuming Good actually means good, and not just a label, that's evidence enough these characters are delusional.

I fail to follow. What does Good or good have that the other three don't? And frankly, it depends on the setting. If it's impossible to utterly end Good, Evil, Law or Chaos, then they're obviously delusional. If it's possible, however, they aren't.

[hamishspence]

Might be interesting to compare these guys to the Athar, who regard the gods as "frauds" - powerful outsiders who don't deserve adulation.

Only in this case- they don't just oppose the gods- but the aligned outsiders as well.

"We don't want to be the battleground on which the Cosmic Forces compete with each other" is a pretty understandable position.

Reduce the scale of the order's goals- focus less on the long term and more on pushing back the influence of the other factions- trying to turn people away from both the "Good force" and the "Evil force" without actually committing good acts (self-sacrifice) or evil acts (violating other people's rights) - and they could be a bit more convincing as Neutrals.

[Talakeal]

C) a product of biological evolution, and D) exactly the same in all individuals. I disagree on practically all accounts (as do most psychologists who are not specifically from that school of thought), so I won't actually debate any of that.

As opposed to what? I can't think of what alternative to biological evolution you could possibly be referring to, unless you are saying most psychologists don't believe in evolution at all, which is both factually incorrect and leads down a road we probably shouldn't get into on this forum.

[Ravens_cry]

I fail to follow. What does Good or good have that the other three don't? And frankly, it depends on the setting. If it's impossible to utterly end Good, Evil, Law or Chaos, then they're obviously delusional. If it's possible, however, they aren't.

If Good is actually good ,then they are seeking to destroy beings who actively work to make the universe a better place, to help others without selfishness, to be light the way so others may follow.
To destroy that would be a crime of, dare I say it, epic proportions.

[Urpriest]

Rilmani have similar goals to these guys, and are True Neutral. Keepers are similarly destructive, and are also Neutral. I'd peg these guys as consistent with the game's concept of Crazy Neutral.