Does an illusion of the Moon affect a Lycanthrope?

[Temperjoke]

Or does it have to be the actual moon? Could that be a way to discover it's an illusion, by not having an affect?

[Squiddish]

If they were trying to control their lycanthropy, it might scare them or cause them to instinctively recoil. Otherwise, probably not.

[Chaosvii7]

All I can think about as I try to come up with an answer is the Power Ball technique from Dragon Ball.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Ball

My answer is: I'd allow it to work if the lycanthrope failed to see through the illusion, but there's also no reason someone couldn't just fabricate a $25,000 ball of dirt and hope that the act of it crashing into the planet as it materializes is enough to jump-start a new lunar cycle.

Alternatively, make a spell that does just that. It can be classified as an illusion, but a spell that temporarily causes lycanthropes to change by making a fake moon would probably be useful in games focused around them.

[Temperjoke]

All I can think about as I try to come up with an answer is the Power Ball technique from Dragon Ball.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Ball

My answer is: I'd allow it to work if the lycanthrope failed to see through the illusion, but there's also no reason someone couldn't just fabricate a $25,000 ball of dirt and hope that the act of it crashing into the planet as it materializes is enough to jump-start a new lunar cycle.

Alternatively, make a spell that does just that. It can be classified as an illusion, but a spell that temporarily causes lycanthropes to change by making a fake moon would probably be useful in games focused around them.

it wasn't an issue that came up or anything, more just a random thought that popped into my head, while reading over the discussion on Phantasmal Force, since it says that if they fail the save, they have to act as if affected

[GlenSmash!]

If an illusion is of acid, and the target fails it's saving throw does the target act like its skin is melting off, or does it act like its afraid of it's skin melting off?

Whatever your answer I would apply the same logic to an illusion of the moon and a lycanthrope target.

[Unoriginal]

It would not trigger their powers, but they would act as if it did.

Note that for those who can transform without the moon it wouldn't change much.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Or does it have to be the actual moon? Could that be a way to discover it's an illusion, by not having an affect?

Well, the question is if the actual moon makes them change, or whether seeing the moon does... and do we know....
Sadly, no.
Sorry this is redundant.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, the question is if the actual moon makes them change, or whether seeing the moon does... and do we know....
Sadly, no.
Sorry this is redundant.

The lycanthropes in OOtA change in Underdark, and there are NPCs worried about their impeding change even if they can't possibly see the moon. Seeing the moon is unimportant, otherwise the cure to lycanthropy would be "stay indoor and close the curtains during full moon".

[SharkForce]

phantasmal force cannot create the moon. it is significantly larger than a 10 foot cube.

in fact, the moon is much too large for any illusion. which means you're going to need some sort of custom effect, and the question of whether that custom effect triggers lycanthropy is pretty much entirely based on what that custom effect (which does not exist) does exactly.

[Temperjoke]

phantasmal force cannot create the moon. it is significantly larger than a 10 foot cube.

in fact, the moon is much too large for any illusion. which means you're going to need some sort of custom effect, and the question of whether that custom effect triggers lycanthropy is pretty much entirely based on what that custom effect (which does not exist) does exactly.

You wouldn't literally create the moon, you would create the perspective of the moon. Assuming that you were outside, at night, without the actual moon in view (yes I know I'm really limiting how realistic this is, that's not the point this time), you create create a tiny object that looks like the full moon "in the sky".

Kinda like this:

[sightlessrealit]

It could work I feel. Due to the distance of the moon one would only need to replicate that apparent size. Which should be we within Phantasmal Forces limitations.

[SharkForce]

You wouldn't literally create the moon, you would create the perspective of the moon. Assuming that you were outside, at night, without the actual moon in view (yes I know I'm really limiting how realistic this is, that's not the point this time), you create create a tiny object that looks like the full moon "in the sky".

i would expect that to only look remotely convincing if there is a perfectly cloudless sky. probably anything to give proper perspective, well, your eyes do have depth perception and they'll probably spot that the "moon" is way too close if there's something to compare it to easily.

in any event, phantasmal wouldn't force transformation. if the person knows they're infected, they might worry about it, but as noted, it isn't based on seeing the moon, and it isn't something the person has control over. they might think they're going to transform, but that's about it.

[Ganymede]

I'm really not sure the act of seeing a white circle in the night sky is what causes lycanthropes to transform.

Though, I guess this would be a plausible way to trick a lycanthrope into thinking he or she is cured of lycanthropy.

[PopeLinus1]

I'm really not sure the act of seeing a white circle in the night sky is what causes lycanthropes to transform.

Though, I guess this would be a plausible way to trick a lycanthrope into thinking he or she is cured of lycanthropy.

Mwahahahahahah

This will be fun...

[the_brazenburn]

Mwahahahahahah

This will be fun...

I remember those deep gnome wererats from OotA. You know, the ones who refused to fight because they were afraid of falling into their bestial side.

This could actually be (kinda) useful!

[Gardakan]

If you know can repllicate the exact condition that makes them transform with Phantasmal Force, they would have to roll their saving throw or transform I'd say. It's quite cruel to do this, but it's something I might be willing to work with (unless they Errata it lol).

[Chaosvii7]

It would not trigger their powers, but they would act as if it did.

I like this answer better actually, I think. I'm imagining a werewolf failing a save against phantasmal force and getting on all fours and howling like an idiot despite not actually changing like they were hypnotized at one of those stage shows. That'd be a good laugh.

[LtPowers]

Remus Lupin didn't change when the Boggart assumed the appearance of the full moon. Different setting, of course, and different circumstances, but I think consistency here is logical.


Powers &8^]

[Temperjoke]

Remus Lupin didn't change when the Boggart assumed the appearance of the full moon. Different setting, of course, and different circumstances, but I think consistency here is logical.


Powers &8^]

Yeah, but he knew it wasn't the moon. And I'm sorry, but using a completely different source material doesn't work, because there are lots of things that would conflict between d&d and the harry potter world.

[Requilac]

How I would personally play it out as a DM is that the target does not actually turn into their lycanthrope form, but because they are effected by the illusion they believe they are. They will act as if they have been transformed even if they will not be physically changed. That seems like the most interesting solution to me at the very least.

[Gardakan]

How I would personally play it out as a DM is that the target does not actually turn into their lycanthrope form, but because they are effected by the illusion they believe they are. They will act as if they have been transformed even if they will not be physically changed. That seems like the most interesting solution to me at the very least.

The question need to be extrapolated to this hypothesis :

- Would an illusory triggering condition/effect be enough to make such situation happens.

It's always up to the DM, but something has to be happening more then just a regular illusiou would do. If nothing is happening, the DM must be quite stiff on the rule of cool.

(Sorry for bad English, it's my third language and I'm tired).

[Requilac]

The question need to be extrapolated to this hypothesis :

- Would an illusory triggering condition/effect be enough to make such situation happens.

It's always up to the DM, but something has to be happening more then just a regular illusiou would do. If nothing is happening, the DM must be quite stiff on the rule of cool.

(Sorry for bad English, it's my third language and I'm tired).

Why wouldn’t phantasmal force be enough to falsely convince a werewolf it has transformed? This is the literal wording of the spell...

“While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. For example, a target attempting to walk across a phantasmal bridge that spans a chasm falls once it steps onto the bridge. If the target survives the fall, it still believes that the bridge exists and comes up with some other explanation for its fall-it was pushed, it slipped, or a strong wind might have knocked it off.”

The spell’s description claims that “the target treats the phantasm as if it were real” and “rationalizes and illogical outcomes”, so why wouldn’t the target be capable of believing it turned into a werewolf? Surely it could not cause a target to physically transform, but I see nothin wrong with giving the target the notion that it is transforming. The method i outlined seems to be checking out in all categories, RAW, RAI and RAF.

[Laserlight]

there are lots of things that would conflict between d&d and the harry potter world.

Which is why Harry Potter and the Natural 20 is hilarious.

[PrismCat21]

phantasmal force cannot create the moon. it is significantly larger than a 10 foot cube.

in fact, the moon is much too large for any illusion. which means you're going to need some sort of custom effect, and the question of whether that custom effect triggers lycanthropy is pretty much entirely based on what that custom effect (which does not exist) does exactly.

Just how large is the moon? How far away from the world is it?
I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the books.

[Requilac]

i would expect that to only look remotely convincing if there is a perfectly cloudless sky. probably anything to give proper perspective, well, your eyes do have depth perception and they'll probably spot that the "moon" is way too close if there's something to compare it to easily.

You are missing out on an important factor of the spell. While a person who is thinking through it logically could determine the moon is an illusion, people under the effects of this spell are not thinking logically. The spell’s description literally states that “The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm.” While it might not make sense that the moon looks so close, the delirious target while rationalize over that and believe it is perfectly real, despite not making much sense. That is how the spell works, it is clearly stated.

[Temperjoke]

You are missing out on an important factor of the spell. While a person who is thinking through it logically could determine the moon is an illusion, people under the effects of this spell are not thinking logically. The spell’s description literally states that “The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm.” While it might not make sense that the moon looks so close, the delirious target while rationalize over that and believe it is perfectly real, despite not making much sense. That is how the spell works, it is clearly stated.

Exactly, it would only work with Phantasmal Force in this way, any other illusion spell would have no effect and could be seen through in this circumstance.

[JackPhoenix]

Which is why Harry Potter and the Natural 20 is hilarious.

Spoiler: Offtopic

Show

Thank you for mentioning it. Thanks to you, I've noticed that the author resumed the fic after 2 years hiatus

[Darth Ultron]

The Lycanthrope Moon change is a huge ''supernatural'' effect. A simple illusion spell can't fake it. An Illusion is just making an image. Would a painting of the Moon have any effect on a Lycanthrope.

At least if you use any of the spells like Major Image.

There could be a False Moon spell...say of around 5th level that DOES make a fake ''supernatural magic'' effect of the moon.

It might also make a nice 'teleport' type spell...you can 'teleport' a full moon effect from elsewhere in time for a short while.

[SharkForce]

Just how large is the moon? How far away from the world is it?
I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the books.

well, try to dig up some spelljammer books then, it's typically mentioned there :)

You are missing out on an important factor of the spell. While a person who is thinking through it logically could determine the moon is an illusion, people under the effects of this spell are not thinking logically. The spell’s description literally states that “The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm.” While it might not make sense that the moon looks so close, the delirious target while rationalize over that and believe it is perfectly real, despite not making much sense. That is how the spell works, it is clearly stated.

it doesn't say you can make whatever it is appear to be something else. either you create an illusion of the moon (which is too large) or you create an illusion that looks like the moon, but is a lot closer. something that looks like the moon, is a lot closer, but looks much further away is really stretching it. again, nothing says you get to dictate every detail of what the target thinks, only that you create the illusion. the illusion can be an object, a creature, or a visual phenomenon, not "an object and any facts about the object you would like the person to believe".

rationalizing the thing means they're not going to assume it is an illusion (barring a successful investigation check), not that they will turn into a mindless drooling idiot that believes anything they're told about the object. if you create a 10 foot moon that is much closer, it is going to look like a 10 foot moon that is much closer, and in the event that they notice it is a 10 foot moon that is much closer (which may not happen, because most people won't examine the moon too closely) they are going to treat it as an actual 10 foot moon that is much closer, not as the real moon that is much further away. they may suspect that magic is involved (they may believe that the moon has been shrunk, or that someone has created a flying ship that looks like the moon, or that it is the effect of some kind of magical spell), but they won't just fly up to it, touch it, and say "hey my hand went right through so it must be an illusion". if they try that, it'll feel like a real moon. if they're thrown through it, they'll assume it moved out of the way, or that they simply missed it. you don't get to insert arbitrary facts about it, only that it is a real thing despite evidence to the contrary.

[Requilac]

it doesn't say you can make whatever it is appear to be something else. either you create an illusion of the moon (which is too large) or you create an illusion that looks like the moon, but is a lot closer. something that looks like the moon, is a lot closer, but looks much further away is really stretching it. again, nothing says you get to dictate every detail of what the target thinks, only that you create the illusion. the illusion can be an object, a creature, or a visual phenomenon, not "an object and any facts about the object you would like the person to believe".

rationalizing the thing means they're not going to assume it is an illusion (barring a successful investigation check), not that they will turn into a mindless drooling idiot that believes anything they're told about the object. if you create a 10 foot moon that is much closer, it is going to look like a 10 foot moon that is much closer, and in the event that they notice it is a 10 foot moon that is much closer (which may not happen, because most people won't examine the moon too closely) they are going to treat it as an actual 10 foot moon that is much closer, not as the real moon that is much further away. they may suspect that magic is involved (they may believe that the moon has been shrunk, or that someone has created a flying ship that looks like the moon, or that it is the effect of some kind of magical spell), but they won't just fly up to it, touch it, and say "hey my hand went right through so it must be an illusion". if they try that, it'll feel like a real moon. if they're thrown through it, they'll assume it moved out of the way, or that they simply missed it. you don't get to insert arbitrary facts about it, only that it is a real thing despite evidence to the contrary.

It is not an arbitrary fact, it is a genuine interpretation of the spell's description. Ultimately I think this is another case of vague and ambiguous wording by WotC that makes the effect open ended as to its meaning, a concept strongly associated to 5e. To me the clause that states "The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm" means this is absolutely possible. But in truth, that could or could not be the truth, I realistically don't think we can formulate solid evidence for either case. This was probably a spell that was meant to be heavily reliant on DM fiat, as we can see with many different examples of spells. I think that many people here are going to state that my interpertation is correct, and many are going to say that it is incorrect too. We could argue this round and round for days, but I do not think we are going to ever reach an agreement. Agree to disagree I suppose, because this subject is much too subjective for me to functionally debate it.