Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Cheesegear]

This is the second or third time you've given your faction rediculously OP fan versions Cheese. You're great and a wealth of knowledge, but bugger me, you can't design a balanced unit for ****.

Basically as soon as I posted it there were several things I wanted to change. But if you start from somewhere OP, you have nowhere to go but down. I would rather have 2-3 people telling me to go back to the drawing board, than nobody at all tell me what I wrote wasn't good at all, and then sending it to print. Y'know...Like Blood Ravens.

1. The first thing I thought of, was 7 Wounds. I feel that's non-negotiable.

No, seriously, go check out Guilliman's entry.

2. Which, I'll be honest. I didn't.

The first thing I remember about Lysander and why I used to take him in the first place, is basically what I said; The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter. Back when Instant Death was a thing, Lysander's S10 would drop dudes all day, to double out most Infantry in the game. That was the entire reason you took him. Furthermore, AP2 was a thing. No save. You're done. No save. Instant Death. The only way you save against the Fist of Dorn, should be with an Invulnerable.

What I want, is for Lysander to kill most Infantry characters (4-5 wounds) in one hit. The problem is, that in order to do that, you kind of have to give him the ability to dunk on everything else, too. That's not what I intended, but that's how it came out...No. Like I said, first draft.

S6, AP-3, 3 Damage, no negs is to hit. Frankly, is bad. That's not what you sign up for when you pull out a special character that's inferior to regular Smash Captains that cost 6 Points less. A BA Smash Captain may as well be S10, except also has <Fly> and Charges 3d6"...With re-rolls.

On an unmodified '6' to wound, Damage dealt by that wound by Fist of Dorn is dealt as Mortal Wounds. That sounds better.

3. So, said combat monster with no equal gets to basically deploy into combat with his retinue of meatshields so you can't ever shoot him before he makes combat? Bzzzzt, no.

You mean exactly what I do with a Blood Angel Captain, Lemartes, and x15 Death Company? (Who are all not!S10)
You mean exactly what I do with Shrike and 10 Vanguard?

Do it with <Jump Packs> no-one cares. Do it with <Terminators> and everyone loses their minds. This is 8th Ed. Terminators aren't allowed to be good, don't you know?

The reworked Fist of Dorn is a bit much, the extra Mortal Wound on top is just asinine. I know that. Basically as soon as I posted it. But, like I said, with a rules team that even gives half of two turds, you would work that out within a minute. Me typing, by myself, doesn't have a whole lot of back-and-forth.

1. Get someone like me, who thinks 'If it's not OP, why is it even on the board?'
2. Get someone else, who thinks 'Yeah, but is it fun (for your opponent)?'

I'm aware that hiring two people instead of one, costs money, and that usually gives corporate an aneurysm. But, Designing-by-Discord would be so easy.

Spoiler: Ice, Ice Baby

Show

From there, we start paring back...

Fist of Dorn;
Half attacks (rounded down, in case of Might of Heroes), deal Damage as Mortal.
Or, '6' to wound, deal Damage as Mortal.
...But then that has the problem of bypassing Invulnerable saves, and that's not really what I'm shooting for, even if it does do the job.

Teleport Strike works as normal. But instead of <Terminators> within 6" re-rolling Charges against <Heretic Astartes> it's now all opposing units (if you disagree, take up with Blood Angels and Raven Guard). Then switch his Warlord Trait to Champion of Humanity (which, right there, just by the name, is way more thematic), which, for our purposes, only gives Lysander rr1 to wound vs. <Characters> in the Fight phase.

The 'Lose a Wound, Gain Attacks' I stole from Fuegan. Except I stole it from 7th Ed. Fuegan. And 7th Ed. Eldar need to die in a fire. 8th Ed. Fuegan is a bit different (which I didn't know). Still good, but different. Which would work just as well; The first time Captain Lysander loses any wounds in a Fight phase, he has +2 Strength and Attacks for the rest of the game.

[Turalisj]

Eliminators are locked to 3 man squads.

[Drasius]

Basically as soon as I posted it there were several things I wanted to change. But if you start from somewhere OP, you have nowhere to go but down. I would rather have 2-3 people telling me to go back to the drawing board, than nobody at all tell me what I wrote wasn't good at all, and then sending it to print. Y'know...Like Blood Ravens.

1. The first thing I thought of, was 7 Wounds. I feel that's non-negotiable.



2. Which, I'll be honest. I didn't.

The first thing I remember about Lysander and why I used to take him in the first place, is basically what I said; The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter. Back when Instant Death was a thing, Lysander's S10 would drop dudes all day, to double out most Infantry in the game. That was the entire reason you took him. Furthermore, AP2 was a thing. No save. You're done. No save. Instant Death. The only way you save against the Fist of Dorn, should be with an Invulnerable.

What I want, is for Lysander to kill most Infantry characters (4-5 wounds) in one hit. The problem is, that in order to do that, you kind of have to give him the ability to dunk on everything else, too. That's not what I intended, but that's how it came out...No. Like I said, first draft.

S6, AP-3, 3 Damage, no negs is to hit. Frankly, is bad. That's not what you sign up for when you pull out a special character that's inferior to regular Smash Captains that cost 6 Points less. A BA Smash Captain may as well be S10, except also has <Fly> and Charges 3d6"...With re-rolls.

On an unmodified '6' to wound, Damage dealt by that wound by Fist of Dorn is dealt as Mortal Wounds. That sounds better.



You mean exactly what I do with a Blood Angel Captain, Lemartes, and x15 Death Company? (Who are all not!S10)
You mean exactly what I do with Shrike and 10 Vanguard?

Do it with <Jump Packs> no-one cares. Do it with <Terminators> and everyone loses their minds. This is 8th Ed. Terminators aren't allowed to be good, don't you know?

The reworked Fist of Dorn is a bit much, the extra Mortal Wound on top is just asinine. I know that. Basically as soon as I posted it. But, like I said, with a rules team that even gives half of two turds, you would work that out within a minute. Me typing, by myself, doesn't have a whole lot of back-and-forth.

1. Get someone like me, who thinks 'If it's not OP, why is it even on the board?'
2. Get someone else, who thinks 'Yeah, but is it fun (for your opponent)?'

I'm aware that hiring two people instead of one, costs money, and that usually gives corporate an aneurysm. But, Designing-by-Discord would be so easy.

Spoiler: Ice, Ice Baby

Show

From there, we start paring back...

Fist of Dorn;
Half attacks (rounded down, in case of Might of Heroes), deal Damage as Mortal.
Or, '6' to wound, deal Damage as Mortal.
...But then that has the problem of bypassing Invulnerable saves, and that's not really what I'm shooting for, even if it does do the job.

Teleport Strike works as normal. But instead of <Terminators> within 6" re-rolling Charges against <Heretic Astartes> it's now all opposing units (if you disagree, take up with Blood Angels and Raven Guard). Then switch his Warlord Trait to Champion of Humanity (which, right there, just by the name, is way more thematic), which, for our purposes, only gives Lysander rr1 to wound vs. <Characters> in the Fight phase.

The 'Lose a Wound, Gain Attacks' I stole from Fuegan. Except I stole it from 7th Ed. Fuegan. And 7th Ed. Eldar need to die in a fire. 8th Ed. Fuegan is a bit different (which I didn't know). Still good, but different. Which would work just as well; The first time Captain Lysander loses any wounds in a Fight phase, he has +2 Strength and Attacks for the rest of the game.

The +1 wound is fine, great even, as it's a really concrete example of having what the character is all about mesh with a real, tangible TT benefit - he can't be taken out in 1 hit by a d6 weapon. This is where fluff and crunch come together and is good design.

The design of the hammer is blatant and rampant power creep mixed with questionable liens of thinking. Smash captains are OP, so Lysander has to be slightly more OP? To quote one of the great prophets of our time "Yeah, nah". This is exactly what's wrong with fandexes, the baseline for their super special stuff is the absolute best thing that someone else has, and then it needs to be better than that! Let's go back and look at why you are always going to be trash at designing any fandex, ever:

1. Get someone like me, who thinks 'If it's not OP, why is it even on the board?'

If that's how you're going to think, you are not capable of writing anything balanced (your internal balance could eventually be OK'ish - though I doubt it - as anything you write will always be unfairly strong compared to literally everyone elses army, because you're using what is better than it should be as a baseline, then making your stuff better again. You are aiming for OP by your own admission, thus anything that you are going to be happy with will be OP and thus no fun to play against.

Speaking of which: a) remember why instant death was hated and why EW was eventually added? 'Cause it was unfun to have your dude eat **** after copping a single str 8+ hit. Are you specifically designing your character to be unfun for your opponent? If so, maybe you should reconsider.

b) As for why people don't lose their mind when people do it with Captain Marvel and his DC imitators, the DC are 33 ppm, have 1W, a 3+ save and can't buy a storm shield and thus don't have an invulnerable (though they do have their 6+++). Yes, they hit like a truck, but they're squishy and expensive. Is the re-roll you're refering to coming from the jump pack relic, 'cause now you've packed a second relic on your special snowflake character.

c) As for why people don't lose their mind when Shrike and a party bus of TH/SS VV's do it, they are less squishy since they can buy a SS, but a 3+/3++ for 33 points still only having 1W isn't super sturdy and Shrike is nowhere near the combat monster that a Smash Captain or your fandex Lysander is and they're basically giving up their chapter tactics to do it.

Your Lysander though is without equal in combat and now you also want him to DS closer than normal, and let his pack of 2+/3++ 2W goons with TH/SS and 2W a piece set up set up closer as well? Then you give Lysander a rr on the charge, turning what was already a better then 50/50 shot into something unreasonably reliable, while also allowing you to burn a command rr on your termies, making their charge equally reliable.

If you want him to be able to rail infantry characters, you definitely don't have to design him to be a paintrain aginast everything else, that's one of the reasons why we have <keywords>. Give him a buff against enemies with the <infantry> AND <character> keywords (hell, you could probably just have it be against <infantry> and be just fine). The problem is twofold - a) he's already wielding a relic version of the best weapon, with no -ve to hit and is hitting on 2's rr1's. b) Said weapon also happens to be incredibly effective against literally everything else, so you can't really buff him any further in a generic manner. If you had said <infantry> get -1 to their invulnerable save or Lysander does +1 damage against <characters> who are also <infantry>, that would have been much better. Handing out something like a 5+++ or 6+++ when within 1" of an enemy <character> would also have been a solid way to represent his dogged determination not to yield, but hey, you want damage.

Going down the "handing out mortals like candy" route that you've proposed is yet another source of power creep while also being directly against what you said earlier - the only way to defend against getting hit by said relic hammer should be invulnerables, but then you take that defence away. You also said earlier that the mortals were a mistake, but then double down even harder on cramming even more mortal wounds in. "Half attacks deal damage as mortal wounds"? **** me, that's broken as hell on something with your proposed damage output. Even 6's to wound is very, very strong when you have as many attacks as what you're proposing.

Coming back to unfun for a second - do you 'member how it sucked for DA to have a bunch of abilities that only worked against Chaos? For how bad it was for them, it was twice as bad to be on the recieving end of it, especially when you're already a ****-tier dex. Do you remember how much it sucked for daemon players to face GK a couple of editions ago when warp quake was a thing? Don't design narrative rules for matched play, 'cause either you point the unit for having the ability work vs everyone and they suck or you point it as if the ability doesn't exist and it's cancer on a stick against the one enemy that it's meant to work against.

For the warlord trait, I'm not sure why you think that Iron Resolve isn't the best fit for Lysander? The only explaination I can come up with is that you desperately want to hit on 2's and wound on 2's regardless of anything else.

As for the extra attacks, again, you siad it yourself, taking anything from 7th Eldar is a nono. I'm not sure that borrowing 8th Fuegan's stuff is better though. +2 strength? Why, he's already str 10, the only thing this will do is let him wound T6 on 2's. That's basically flimsy vehicles ... and Jet Custard Captains. Ah, your powergaming side is showing again. The +2 attacks, again, is problematic due to making him better than or on par with Guilliman against pretty much anything because he's already statted out to be pretty much a one dimensional beatstick. The problem with Lysander is the same problem with any other footslogging beatstick - they need to be able to get to the fight to do the thing. Lysander is pretty damn capable in a fight already, it's getting there that's the problem, but that's a symptom of the game being decided so heavily by the time the T2 fight phase rolls around, and it's not something you can fix by buffing your favourite (or, second favourite, I know you've got Gabriel Seth posters in your bedroom) character to unreasonable levels.

Eliminators are locked to 3 man squads.

See, I know that it's not what is written, but I keep reading it as "Eliminators are hot garbage."

Not sure why though...

[JNAProductions]

Eliminators are locked to 3 man squads.

Source? I really want to get a closer look at the upcoming 'Dex and Supplements before I make purchasing decisions.

[Cheesegear]

If that's how you're going to think, you are not capable of writing anything balanced (your internal balance could eventually be OK'ish - though I doubt it - as anything you write will always be unfairly strong compared to literally everyone elses army, because you're using what is better than it should be as a baseline, then making your stuff better again. You are aiming for OP by your own admission, thus anything that you are going to be happy with will be OP and thus no fun to play against.

I am aiming to have unique character be...Unique. To have them inferior to vanilla Ultramarines Captains (let alone Blood Angels or Space Wolves ones) means that they're not unique at all. In fact they're lame. That's one of the biggest problems with having Uniques in the first place. You get one, so it's gotta be good. If it's not good, then why not take three Smash Captains?

Having a unique be inferior to 'some dude' - even in your own Codex - makes the uniques a lot less fun - especially if they have a novel or two written about them.

Speaking of which: a) remember why instant death was hated and why EW was eventually added? 'Cause it was unfun to have your dude eat **** after copping a single str 8+ hit. Are you specifically designing your character to be unfun for your opponent? If so, maybe you should reconsider.

I don't need to reconsider anything. I work for GW, right? They're supposed to have me be part of a Design Team. Which is what you're doing, now. Except typing is slow, and I don't know when you're going to read my post - let alone respond. Like I said, you have one guy who wants the moon, you have another guy, who doesn't. Both of them need to understand how the game works. Me, typing by myself and caring too much to make what I like = good (e.g; The Matt Ward way), is just as bad as handing an assignment to some guy who doesn't care and telling him to be done in 15 minutes.

But that can't happen, if your Team works together. **** options get made better, OP options get made worse.

This is why certain things are so bizarre. One person writes one thing, while one person writes another thing. One of them is way better than the other, despite the fact that they're both in the same format using the same resources. I think it was brought up early in 8th with the 'No Codex Left Behind' spiel? Where a developer said that Codecies were designed by Teams, that way they can churn out monthly releases with no downtime. That is Team A, and Team B. Team A, works on say, Space Wolves, while Team B, works on Orks.

Team A, apparently, went full fluff mode, and turned out a pretty awful Space Wolves book.
Team B, was like 'Rules sell models', and Orks is one of the best Codecies in the edition so far.

Whether by accident or design, the 'Teams' were woefully lopsided. Why?

Is the re-roll you're refering to coming from the jump pack relic, 'cause now you've packed a second relic on your special snowflake character.

Captain Lemartes gives <Death Company> models re-rolls to Charge and to hit. Death Visions applies the <Death Company> Keyword. Lemartes got a significant points drop like...9 months ago. What've you been doing?

Your Lysander though is without equal in combat and now you also want him to DS closer than normal

Not anymore I don't. 9" is fine. I altered him. But he does need the re-roll.

Then you give Lysander a rr on the charge, turning what was already a better then 50/50 shot into something unreasonably reliable

You're still talking about something that's no longer relevant. 7" is now 9". I read what you wrote.

a) he's already wielding a relic version of the best weapon, with no -ve to hit and is hitting on 2's rr1's.

Again, see every other Captain who is better.

Said weapon also happens to be incredibly effective against literally everything else

It does 3 Damage. It's only effective as everything else. Meanwhile a Daemon Prince flies around doing Mortal Wounds with 7 Attacks.

Going down the "handing out mortals like candy" route that you've proposed is yet another source of power creep

Again, your idea is better. Good job. Extra Damage, but vs. Infantry earlier.
Isn't it great to talk ideas out?

The problem with almost all fandexes is that they're usually written by one person. This was the major problem in 5th Ed., when Matt Ward wrote Codecies by himself, and other Codecies were written by not-Matt Ward. The whole point of switching to 'Teams' was to prevent that problem. But apparently all's it's done is create good teams and bad teams.

The whole point of treating it like a design document was pretty clear:

Goal; Lysander sucks. Make him better.

Known Information; Lysander spent 1000* years in the Warp (that could mean anything in Warptime, but even according to Lysander himself, it was still a long time from his perspective) fighting Chaos. He came out half-insane. Untainted for sure. But still wrong in the head. However, he is sane enough to recognise that he isn't sane. He can take more punishment than you can possibly throw at him, and when hits back, he hits like a truck and with vengeance - just like Dorn. He also likes teleporting. Yes, he's an Imperial Fist, and they all like teleporting. But Lysander also watched his mentor get teleported into a wall, and unlike a Space Wolf, didn't say "Hey, that's probably not such a good idea...Now that I think about it. Wouldn't Drop Pods be safer?"

Previous editions, rules-wise, painted him as one the premiere character-killers, up there with Abaddon and Asurmen. With him also being fairly simultaneously hard to kill on the return. What happened to that? Did GW decide that Calgar had to be the best non-Guilliman model in the book? 4th-7th is was okay that Lysander was Beast Mode. But not 8th?

What does Beast Mode look like, in 8th?

Reasonable chance of completing a Charge on Turn 1 or Turn 2 - but preferably Turn 1:
-- Fast, or have the ability to set up anywhere,
-- If setting up anywhere, re-roll Charges.

After Invulnerables (but not Ignore Wounds) are taken into account, has your model done at least 6 Damage?:
-- Fighting twice works, but it does cost CPs, so that's a wash,
-- On the return, providing some sort of Challenge scenario, would your model be able to stand up after receiving attacks that deal 3 Damage each?

Is there a unit in your Codex that can support them. Either to stand in front of the Character so they can't be targeted, or to deal a ****-load of attacks to prevent your Character from being tarpitted by hordes?
-- However your Character is Charging on Turn 1 or 2, it had better apply to them, too.

That's what Lysander needs to be. Can he be that?
I think he can.
My first draft was an overblown mess. I admit it. First drafts are always terrible.

But, hey. It's not like it matters; New Codex is on pre-order and I can complain about Imperial Fists sucking later.

EDIT: Speaking of which.

Drop Pods can come down on Turn 1 (using a Stratagem?). I don't think you can Charge out of 'em? Still 85 Points each, though.
Razorbacks still have access to Twin Assault Cannons, get Chapter Tactics (all of which except Black Templars are useful on Vehicles).
Might of Heroes can be applied to units now? For T6 Centurions?

Spoiler: Actual Leak

Show

Sicarius -10
Cassius 0
Chief Librarian Tigurius +15 - That'll be the Primaris talking.
Calgar 0
Roboute Guilliman -70 - Because he only hands out rr1 to wound, instead of full re-rolls. Which means 'The S4 Codex' is now nowhere near as good.
Chronus 0

I spent way too much money on pre-orders today. I'm sure I'll regret it.

[Blackhawk748]

I think our main difference is that I’m thinking of the individual studio members and how soul destroying it would be for them to see something they have spent effort on, in a creative career which is entirely about allowing people to have fun, be the subject of such routine vitriol wherever they look online. They’ll want to know what they can do better, but if everything they do is met with complaints they won’t get the positive reinforcement from what has worked.

Then don't make stuff that sucks? Seriously, none of my homebrew got endlessly crapped on and that was because even if it wasn't all that great or it was too good, it wasn't too far off that it wasn't easily fixable.

They're an adult getting paid to do a job, and they aren't doing it properly. They are going to get yelled at.

[Meatgrinder]

Hey Cheesegear, when the new SM codex comes out, will you need any help updating the guide? I'm by no means the best player out there, but I'd be happy to help out with the massive influx of new stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

Basically as soon as I posted it there were several things I wanted to change. But if you start from somewhere OP, you have nowhere to go but down. I would rather have 2-3 people telling me to go back to the drawing board, than nobody at all tell me what I wrote wasn't good at all, and then sending it to print. Y'know...Like Blood Ravens.

1. The first thing I thought of, was 7 Wounds. I feel that's non-negotiable.



2. Which, I'll be honest. I didn't.

The first thing I remember about Lysander and why I used to take him in the first place, is basically what I said; The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter. Back when Instant Death was a thing, Lysander's S10 would drop dudes all day, to double out most Infantry in the game. That was the entire reason you took him. Furthermore, AP2 was a thing. No save. You're done. No save. Instant Death. The only way you save against the Fist of Dorn, should be with an Invulnerable.

What I want, is for Lysander to kill most Infantry characters (4-5 wounds) in one hit. The problem is, that in order to do that, you kind of have to give him the ability to dunk on everything else, too. That's not what I intended, but that's how it came out...No. Like I said, first draft.

S6, AP-3, 3 Damage, no negs is to hit. Frankly, is bad. That's not what you sign up for when you pull out a special character that's inferior to regular Smash Captains that cost 6 Points less. A BA Smash Captain may as well be S10, except also has <Fly> and Charges 3d6"...With re-rolls.

On an unmodified '6' to wound, Damage dealt by that wound by Fist of Dorn is dealt as Mortal Wounds. That sounds better.



You mean exactly what I do with a Blood Angel Captain, Lemartes, and x15 Death Company? (Who are all not!S10)
You mean exactly what I do with Shrike and 10 Vanguard?

Do it with <Jump Packs> no-one cares. Do it with <Terminators> and everyone loses their minds. This is 8th Ed. Terminators aren't allowed to be good, don't you know?

The reworked Fist of Dorn is a bit much, the extra Mortal Wound on top is just asinine. I know that. Basically as soon as I posted it. But, like I said, with a rules team that even gives half of two turds, you would work that out within a minute. Me typing, by myself, doesn't have a whole lot of back-and-forth.

1. Get someone like me, who thinks 'If it's not OP, why is it even on the board?'
2. Get someone else, who thinks 'Yeah, but is it fun (for your opponent)?'

I'm aware that hiring two people instead of one, costs money, and that usually gives corporate an aneurysm. But, Designing-by-Discord would be so easy.

Spoiler: Ice, Ice Baby

Show

From there, we start paring back...

Fist of Dorn;
Half attacks (rounded down, in case of Might of Heroes), deal Damage as Mortal.
Or, '6' to wound, deal Damage as Mortal.
...But then that has the problem of bypassing Invulnerable saves, and that's not really what I'm shooting for, even if it does do the job.

Teleport Strike works as normal. But instead of <Terminators> within 6" re-rolling Charges against <Heretic Astartes> it's now all opposing units (if you disagree, take up with Blood Angels and Raven Guard). Then switch his Warlord Trait to Champion of Humanity (which, right there, just by the name, is way more thematic), which, for our purposes, only gives Lysander rr1 to wound vs. <Characters> in the Fight phase.

The 'Lose a Wound, Gain Attacks' I stole from Fuegan. Except I stole it from 7th Ed. Fuegan. And 7th Ed. Eldar need to die in a fire. 8th Ed. Fuegan is a bit different (which I didn't know). Still good, but different. Which would work just as well; The first time Captain Lysander loses any wounds in a Fight phase, he has +2 Strength and Attacks for the rest of the game.

1. 7 Wounds is fine.

2. Mortal Wounds is bad though. Strength 10 Base, sure. AP 5, ehh, I don't like. Particularly if you are looking into boosting his damage. I'd keep that at AP 3. For his damage though, I'd go with something like this: 3 Damage, but on a 6+ to wound, his damage doubles. But if effects everything, so he can actually do some serious work against a vehicle or monster.

3. I'll be more/less generous with the charge thing. How about +1 to charges after showing up? Provided to everything within 6 inches. So the charge is more reliable, but has no built in reroll. But that means you can still use a CP reroll.

4. I actually like the Fuegan buff, because give a good way to deal with him, not fighting him in CC. Shoot or smite him down, and he gets nothing.

[Drasius]

I am aiming to have unique character be...Unique. To have them inferior to vanilla Ultramarines Captains (let alone Blood Angels or Space Wolves ones) means that they're not unique at all. In fact they're lame. That's one of the biggest problems with having Uniques in the first place. You get one, so it's gotta be good. If it's not good, then why not take three Smash Captains?

Having a unique be inferior to 'some dude' - even in your own Codex - makes the uniques a lot less fun - especially if they have a novel or two written about them.

Unique characters shouldn't be better or worse, they should be different, otherwise all you do is make certain characters/models/chapters mandatory 'cause they're the best. Yet another reason why handing out relics for free is a bad idea. The main problem you appear to have is that Lysander is a terminator captain and by default, cannot have a jump pack and thus can't get <FLY> nor move 12" a turn. He's just flat out better than a generic termie captain because he's got the exact gear a termie captain wants (TH/SS), but he isn't taking negs to hit and has more strength. Your problem isn't that Lysander isn't good, your problem is that terminator captains aren't good.

I don't need to reconsider anything. I work for GW, right? They're supposed to have me be part of a Design Team. Which is what you're doing, now. Except typing is slow, and I don't know when you're going to read my post - let alone respond. Like I said, you have one guy who wants the moon, you have another guy, who doesn't. Both of them need to understand how the game works. Me, typing by myself and caring too much to make what I like = good (e.g; The Matt Ward way), is just as bad as handing an assignment to some guy who doesn't care and telling him to be done in 15 minutes.

But that can't happen, if your Team works together. **** options get made better, OP options get made worse.

This is why certain things are so bizarre. One person writes one thing, while one person writes another thing. One of them is way better than the other, despite the fact that they're both in the same format using the same resources. I think it was brought up early in 8th with the 'No Codex Left Behind' spiel? Where a developer said that Codecies were designed by Teams, that way they can churn out monthly releases with no downtime. That is Team A, and Team B. Team A, works on say, Space Wolves, while Team B, works on Orks.

Team A, apparently, went full fluff mode, and turned out a pretty awful Space Wolves book.
Team B, was like 'Rules sell models', and Orks is one of the best Codecies in the edition so far.

Whether by accident or design, the 'Teams' were woefully lopsided. Why?

'Cause the GW designers are either filthy casuals at heart and prefer narrative to matched or that they have been told to rotate the meta and give people an incentive to buy a different army.

Captain Lemartes gives <Death Company> models re-rolls to Charge and to hit. Death Visions applies the <Death Company> Keyword. Lemartes got a significant points drop like...9 months ago. What've you been doing?

Not caring about stuff that nobody here plays I guess?

Not anymore I don't. 9" is fine. I altered him. But he does need the re-roll.
...
You're still talking about something that's no longer relevant. 7" is now 9". I read what you wrote.

You have a command point re-roll, use that. The 2 things you're obsessed with are the 2 marine factions known for their heavy use of jump packs while you're trying to jam a slow, plodding terminator from the most gunline legion into some sort of lightning sprinter. Even if you think he needs it, it's bad thematically and totally unjustified. Maybe, just maybe, if I was feeling really charitable, you could argue that if he takes a wound on overwatch, he may re-roll his charge distance, but then we're getting into dangerous territory with too many special rules for a character who is meant to be a beatstick and nothing more. As you said, in any other chapter, Lysander would be a Company Champion - too many rules and he risks turning into a mary-sue special.

Again, see every other Captain who is better.

Which other generic terminator captain is better than Lysander at punching faces? Who else is hitting on 2's with a re-roll and wounding on 2's against T5 or less and on 3's against Vehicles, doing 3 damage a hit?

It does 3 Damage. It's only effective as everything else. Meanwhile a Daemon Prince flies around doing Mortal Wounds with 7 Attacks.

A DP with less str (they're str 7, wounding heavy vehicles on 5's), no rr1 to hit aura, 2 damage a hit, no 2+ save, only a 5++ and a much larger, harder to hide profile and still cost 156 points before wings. Yes, Princes are probably a bit good at the moment, but that's not a reason to hand out half a dozen abilities to uniques just because they don't move 12" a turn. Also, it's a Daemon Prince, it SHOULD be better than a Captain.

Goal; Lysander sucks. Make him better.

Known Information; Lysander spent 1000* years in the Warp (that could mean anything in Warptime, but even according to Lysander himself, it was still a long time from his perspective) fighting Chaos. He came out half-insane. Untainted for sure. But still wrong in the head. However, he is sane enough to recognise that he isn't sane. He can take more punishment than you can possibly throw at him, and when hits back, he hits like a truck and with vengeance - just like Dorn. He also likes teleporting. Yes, he's an Imperial Fist, and they all like teleporting. But Lysander also watched his mentor get teleported into a wall, and unlike a Space Wolf, didn't say "Hey, that's probably not such a good idea...Now that I think about it. Wouldn't Drop Pods be safer?"

Previous editions, rules-wise, painted him as one the premiere character-killers, up there with Abaddon and Asurmen. With him also being fairly simultaneously hard to kill on the return. What happened to that? Did GW decide that Calgar had to be the best non-Guilliman model in the book? 4th-7th is was okay that Lysander was Beast Mode. But not 8th?

What does Beast Mode look like, in 8th?

Reasonable chance of completing a Charge on Turn 1 or Turn 2 - but preferably Turn 1:
-- Fast, or have the ability to set up anywhere,
-- If setting up anywhere, re-roll Charges.

After Invulnerables (but not Ignore Wounds) are taken into account, has your model done at least 6 Damage?:
-- Fighting twice works, but it does cost CPs, so that's a wash,
-- On the return, providing some sort of Challenge scenario, would your model be able to stand up after receiving attacks that deal 3 Damage each?

Is there a unit in your Codex that can support them. Either to stand in front of the Character so they can't be targeted, or to deal a ****-load of attacks to prevent your Character from being tarpitted by hordes?
-- However your Character is Charging on Turn 1 or 2, it had better apply to them, too.

That's what Lysander needs to be. Can he be that?
I think he can.
My first draft was an overblown mess. I admit it. First drafts are always terrible.

But, hey. It's not like it matters; New Codex is on pre-order and I can complain about Imperial Fists sucking later.

Again, this whole thing smacks of you trying to make a terminator captain better than a jump captain because ... reasons? Much like Hoards > Elites in 8th, Captains with jump packs are just better than foot sloggers for now, same as bikes were just better in 6/7th. You can't (or rather, shouldn't) mess around with a characters abilities just to try and make them fit the current meta, just give them suitable abilities and point them appropriately. Would you try and fix skarbrand in a similar way just because he can't get the job done in CC 'cause he struggles to get there?

Which characters does Lysander struggle against that you feel he should pound into the dirt?

I did have a better thought for Lysander's super snowflake bonus though - crib something off the AoS enlightened and have him get a bonus for going first in combat or a different, but equally good bonus for going second. Something like rr to-wound if he goes first vs additional attack(s) if he goes second, that would suit both his berzerk (for a fist) nature of getting his damage on when charging vs holding back and then unleashing once the enemy has gotten him angry. Would also make for an interesting choice vs something like an Imperial Knight where you can get your damage in early and maybe drop them down a bracket or wait and potentially do more damage at the risk of eating a bunch of hits before you get to strike. Likewise for larger numbers of things that charge him, he can probably endure their strikes but makes it more likely he will kill on the return stroke.

[LansXero]

Hah if you could only see our 'build your own character' options for our custom Dawn of War-esque campaign xD.

I do agree though, its hard for fanmade stuff to be balanced because people try to emulate the books and that doesnt mesh well with the overall power level of the game.

As for Lysander, why woud I ever drop the first iteration against characters, when you've made a premier Knight / Tank hunter? S10 with close aproach and re-roll charges with 4 damage a hit and no way to die on overwatch... that thing can crush a Gallant in one round of combat, and also remember that Honour the Chapter / Fight Again are things that exist. So I blow up a Valiant, leave a bunch of termies in your deployment zone and all it costs is 2 assassins worth of points? Sign me up!

So even if you go "but I had to overbuff him to trim down into something reasonable" its still bad, because you wanted a brawler and a character killer, but you made a tank hunter (if a Valiant dies, how do you think a couple of Leman Russ tanks would do? or any other vehicle for that matter). Then again, its a tank hunter that cant touch the most relevant weapon platforms currently: Flyers, so it most likely still wouldnt be taken. So it fails at fluff and fails at crunch, even being a wishlisty mess.

[Cheesegear]

Hey Cheesegear, when the new SM codex comes out, will you need any help updating the guide? I'm by no means the best player out there, but I'd be happy to help out with the massive influx of new stuff.

It's not going to be much of an update, so much as a complete rewrite. So we'll see how it goes.

[Blackhawk748]

I think everyone is focusing on the best situation for Lysander, which is when he comes down like the Hammer of the Emperor with his Termi buddies. Frankly, what Cheese made is how the things SHOULD work, but Termis suck cuz they can't do that.

But what do they do after they delete the unit in front of them? Walk to the next target. Very slowly. Yes they are more durable than the other ones they are being compared to, but that's cuz they traded out speed for that.

Lemartes and Shrike will come down, wipe a unit, then probably survive to wipe another bouncing around like a murder ping pong ball. Lysander will wipe one and then hopefully get in range to charge another unit operating like a big Boulder.

[LansXero]

but the thing is, would you pay 160 points and 2 CPs (if he gets kicked to death) to remove a Castellan from the game? I know I would, which is why his design is bad, unless Lysander is famous as an armor-hunter. Of course, if no big, lumbering target presents itself, then he loiters around swamped by nurglings like every other melee beatstick does, or dies to a Relic SAG like a chump. Or his retinue gets blown up through Forewarned and he cant ever touch the Alaitoc planes while they laugh in Asuryani at him. So a bad design is bad?

[Cheesegear]

I think everyone is focusing on the best situation for Lysander, which is when he comes down like the Hammer of the Emperor with his Termi buddies. Frankly, what Cheese made is how the things SHOULD work, but Termis suck cuz they can't do that.

My idea is sound. What I want, is simply to be able to do the same things that other Factions do. That is, if the units I want, aren't as good as units that already exist, why am I taking my units? Therefore, my units need to be at least as good as what already exists.

Lemartes gives out re-rolls for <Death Company>, it's one of the most brutal things in the game and you can't stop it, especially 'cause Blood Angels are totally happy trying to roll 13" on 3d6 with re-rolls, which means that they can fully stay outside of most 12" Intercept bubbles.

Shrike gives out re-rolls to <Raven Guard Jump Packs>, while not as brutal... It's still Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, and they still <Fly>, which is important, 'cause Fly was un-nerfed. Kind of.

Both Shrike and Lemartes give full re-rolls to hit, on top of re-rolls to Charge.

Grey Knights, could feasibly do the same thing, using Gate of Infinity combined with First to the Fray.
Deathwatch can do the same thing, using Beacon Angelis and Veil of Time.

The reason that GK and DW don't do it, is because they have Storm Bolters. But, if you want to load up your Deathwatch with Power Axes and Storm Shields 'cause you have a boner for Phalanx Wardens, it works plenty well when you also chuck in a few Heavy Thunder Hammers. Except unlike Blood Angels and Raven Guard, GK and DW can do it on Turn 1. Raven Guard can also do it on Turn 1, it's just not really worth it.

...*Headdesk*
HO. LY. ****.

Heavy. Thunder. Hammers. Exist. Give Lysander one of those. Let him and Terminators re-roll Charges. Throw on 7 Wounds. Haven't quite worked out what Icon of Obstinancy should do, but I know it's not +1 Leadership.

Unfortunately for Drasius, he reads all that as 'More of the same', and thus, unfun. Why reprint more of the same? Wouldn't that just fill your meta with more of the same?

Okay. Cool. I understand that. But what should a guy with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield do? Sit on his thumb? 'Cause that's what he does now. That's what they made Gabriel Angelos do, and he's 185 Points!

[Drasius]

If you really want to play Yellow Death Company, then do it, just don't try and force Lysander into being Lemartes because what you want is a jump captain in terminator armour.

I think Forum Explorer got the closest without going overboard on the charge thing. +1" to charge on the turn he comes down with no inherant re-roll is a good compromise, but I still think that it's just stacking abilities onto something that is already better than the generic equivalent due to someone wanting their stuff to be the coolest.

Speaking of, still interested in what generic terminator captain does a better job at punching faces in than Lysander?

Yet another question for Cheese - Once you've insanely overbuffed Lysander for no reason "Fixed" Lysander, do you feel that generic terminator captains are in a good place, or would they all need similar treatment? What about named characters who aren't Lysander? Is Thor Arjac Rockfist fine? Is Logan Grimnar fine? Is Belial fine? What about Chaos, are their Terminator lords fine? If so, why is this different to the Imperium, if not, are they getting adjusted too?

[Forum Explorer]

...*Headdesk*
HO. LY. ****.

Heavy. Thunder. Hammers. Exist. Give Lysander one of those. Let him and Terminators re-roll Charges. Throw on 7 Wounds. Haven't quite worked out what Icon of Obstinancy should do, but I know it's not +1 Leadership.

Unfortunately for Drasius, he reads all that as 'More of the same', and thus, unfun. Why reprint more of the same? Wouldn't that just fill your meta with more of the same?

Okay. Cool. I understand that. But what should a guy with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield do? Sit on his thumb? 'Cause that's what he does now. That's what they made Gabriel Angelos do, and he's 185 Points!

What has Heavy Thunder Hammers? Or what are their stats? I can't find them in the Space Marine Codex.

[JNAProductions]

What has Heavy Thunder Hammers? Or what are their stats? I can't find them in the Space Marine Codex.

Deathwatch.

SX2 AP-3 Dd6, 6s to-wound deal flat 6 instead of d6, and -1 to-hit.

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of, still interested in what generic terminator captain does a better job at punching faces in than Lysander?

None of them do. Terminator Armour is useless. Jump Packs are better, for cheaper.

do you feel that generic terminator captains are in a good place, or would they all need similar treatment?

If you have a Terminator Captain that isn't Black Templars, or doesn't have Imperium's Sword, you're doing it wrong.
Anything that can't feasibly make that 9" Charge doesn't belong there.

Is Thor Arjac Rockfist fine? Is Logan Grimnar fine?

Curse of the Wulfen says yes. Do you have re-rolls to Charge? If yes, you're fine.

Is Belial fine?

If your opponent has <Fallen> models...Sure.

If you're using the Index to give him Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer, no.
If you're using him with a Storm Bolter, yes, and having him hang out with Terminators using Deathwing Assault, yes.

What about Chaos, are their Terminator lords fine?

Who cares? They're not special characters.
But to seriously answer your question, if your role is to have them in Melee, then no they're not fine. That's why you don't use them.

Think about every unit you don't use. Specifically, the ones that don't do the job that they're supposed to do (e.g; You know how Reivers are a 'Melee' Primaris unit but are only S4, AP-? Yeah. That.)

If they did do the job they were supposed to do, would you use them?

[LansXero]

Maybe give Assault Terminators the Necron dynastic code? the 'when advancing, ignore all terrain and models'. That plus advance + charge, and maybe an 'advance with 2d6' should put them close to jump packs while also being slower while benefitting from the increased defense.

[Cheesegear]

Apparently saying that Terminators are only good when they re-roll to Charge, while also trying to give a special character that exact ability, has blown peoples' minds.
Despite the fact that they've been living under very similar - albeit way better - opposition for quite some time.

[Forum Explorer]

Deathwatch.

SX2 AP-3 Dd6, 6s to-wound deal flat 6 instead of d6, and -1 to-hit.

Oh yeah, I think giving Lysander one of those, without the -1 to hit, would be fine.

So what are we at?

+1 wounds

Relic Heavy Thunder Hammer

+1 to Charges off of SUA aura.

Icon of Stubbornness, which seriously just sounds like make people fearless within 6 inches.

[LansXero]

Apparently saying that Terminators are only good when they re-roll to Charge, while also trying to give a special character that exact ability, has blown peoples' minds.
Despite the fact that they've been living under very similar - albeit way better - opposition for quite some time.

Their opposition isnt better because it re-rolls 9" charges. They are better because they re-roll 3" - 5" charges afforded to them through Forlorn Fury and Jump Packs. Or because they re-roll 3d6 9" charges afforded to them through Upon Wings of Fire. Terminators have neither of these things, so your 'fix' doesnt actually adress how they suck, its just an "I want that too" reaction. Also, their opposition doesnt save on 2+ and doesnt have a built-in inv. save, nor do they have 2 wounds, all of which are huge factors, since even guardsmen can plink Death Company away, in a way they cant with Terminators.

[Drasius]

None of them do. Terminator Armour is useless. Jump Packs are better, for cheaper.



If you have a Terminator Captain that isn't Black Templars, or doesn't have Imperium's Sword, you're doing it wrong.
Anything that can't feasibly make that 9" Charge doesn't belong there.



Curse of the Wulfen says yes. Do you have re-rolls to Charge? If yes, you're fine.



If your opponent has <Fallen> models...Sure.

If you're using the Index to give him Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer, no.
If you're using him with a Storm Bolter, yes, and having him hang out with Terminators using Deathwing Assault, yes.



Who cares? They're not special characters.
But to seriously answer your question, if your role is to have them in Melee, then no they're not fine. That's why you don't use them.

Think about every unit you don't use. Specifically, the ones that don't do the job that they're supposed to do (e.g; You know how Reivers are a 'Melee' Primaris unit but are only S4, AP-? Yeah. That.)

If they did do the job they were supposed to do, would you use them?

The point, the one that I've been trying to lead you to, is that Lysander is fine, it's terminators that need fixing - still, because they've been bad since ... whenever Assault termies were released? 4th? early 5th?

But then, if Lysander doesn't need fixing, if he is in fact already better at punching faces than the equivalent captain, why is he getting a host of new rules? If you fix terminators, does that not also resolve most if not all of your issues with Lysander?

If, as you stated above, that none of the generic termies punch face better than Lysander, why do you say earlier that every other captain is better? I'll say it again - your issue isn't that Lysander is bad, it's that Lysander doesn't have a jump pack, 'cause moving 5" a turn and only succeding ~25% of your charges without CP and only ~50% with CP is not for winners.

It's here that you've failed, because the problem that you've identified isn't the real issue. Your design brief is "Lysander sucks, make him good", when it should have been "Terminators, including terminator characters, suck, make them good". Now, as to how you do that is another matter, 'cause without giving all termies the ability to DS closer so they can do the thing, nothing you do is going to gel well with "slow plodding immovable wall of pain" that is a terminator. About the only thing you can realistically do is give them a points drop to suit how (in)effective they are, since letting them come in T1 doesn't really solve the problem of not being able to get into combat.

It's the issue with how they're pointed, 'cause when they do make a long charge and are in combat all the time, they're pretty good, but the other 75% of the time, they're really not that great as anything but a bullet sponge. Is 41ppm model for a 2+/3++ 2W model with a thunderhammer reasonable? Given that it's a horde meta and they've only got two attacks each, probably not based on the cost of a guardsman, but here we run into the same issue that keeps cropping up - the game isn't balanced, and if you keep balancing everything around the best units, then eventually you end up with what we have now where people are struggling to fit their armies into their deployment zone.

The whole thing of "but can it kill [number of typical chaff units]" starts feeling exactly like "but can it kill a wraithknight in a turn" did back in 7th or "but does it make it's points back" did when missions weren't a thing. I'd probably go so far as to say that termies might even be at roughly the right price point compared to most things, it's just the broken end of the spectrum makes them look like unplayable garbage. But then, it's a lot harder to re-write half a dozen units and/or stratagems than it is to hand out points drops, so that's how it usually goes and is one of the main reasons why we have marines costing about half what they did a dozen years ago.

[Forum Explorer]

The point, the one that I've been trying to lead you to, is that Lysander is fine, it's terminators that need fixing - still, because they've been bad since ... whenever Assault termies were released? 4th? early 5th?

But then, if Lysander doesn't need fixing, if he is in fact already better at punching faces than the equivalent captain, why is he getting a host of new rules? If you fix terminators, does that not also resolve most if not all of your issues with Lysander?

If, as you stated above, that none of the generic termies punch face better than Lysander, why do you say earlier that every other captain is better? I'll say it again - your issue isn't that Lysander is bad, it's that Lysander doesn't have a jump pack, 'cause moving 5" a turn and only succeding ~25% of your charges without CP and only ~50% with CP is not for winners.

It's here that you've failed, because the problem that you've identified isn't the real issue. Your design brief is "Lysander sucks, make him good", when it should have been "Terminators, including terminator characters, suck, make them good". Now, as to how you do that is another matter, 'cause without giving all termies the ability to DS closer so they can do the thing, nothing you do is going to gel well with "slow plodding immovable wall of pain" that is a terminator. About the only thing you can realistically do is give them a points drop to suit how (in)effective they are, since letting them come in T1 doesn't really solve the problem of not being able to get into combat.

It's the issue with how they're pointed, 'cause when they do make a long charge and are in combat all the time, they're pretty good, but the other 75% of the time, they're really not that great as anything but a bullet sponge. Is 41ppm model for a 2+/3++ 2W model with a thunderhammer reasonable? Given that it's a horde meta and they've only got two attacks each, probably not based on the cost of a guardsman, but here we run into the same issue that keeps cropping up - the game isn't balanced, and if you keep balancing everything around the best units, then eventually you end up with what we have now where people are struggling to fit their armies into their deployment zone.

The whole thing of "but can it kill [number of typical chaff units]" starts feeling exactly like "but can it kill a wraithknight in a turn" did back in 7th or "but does it make it's points back" did when missions weren't a thing. I'd probably go so far as to say that termies might even be at roughly the right price point compared to most things, it's just the broken end of the spectrum makes them look like unplayable garbage. But then, it's a lot harder to re-write half a dozen units and/or stratagems than it is to hand out points drops, so that's how it usually goes and is one of the main reasons why we have marines costing about half what they did a dozen years ago.

I think a problem with terminators is that they are paying points for an Invulnerable save they aren't using. The 5++ they have doesn't do anything until they are getting hit by AP -4 or better, and that's pretty rare. It exists, sure, but even then, it's typically on things like Melta, IE, Anti-tank weapons. Not the things you typically use on Terminators.

[Avaris]

I feel another problem with Terminators is that the way the game/meta as a whole works isn’t set up to make them able to be good? Due to the way hordes dominate there isn’t really space for a slow moving survivable elite unit: having more bodies is cheaper and better at holding objectives.

The first design question to answer then is ‘what niche do Terminators fill?’ From the lore, it feels to me like the answer could be ‘rapid insertion to a point and then holding that point against anything’. Despite appearances from assault terminators, they aren’t a close assault unit, they are a defensive unit. So trying to get them able to charge after teleporting in isn’t the way to fix them, other things fill that niche.

Are there abilities that could be given to Terminators that give them a new niche? As completely out of the box thinking, perhaps a rule or stratagem that changes when they deep strike in. Imagine if you could clear the enemy off an objective with shooting then land a unit of Terminators on it at the end of the shooting phase: with their base size they’ll easily be the only models within 3”, and with their survivability they will be difficult to clear off for the opponent. Doesn’t especially help Lysander, with his assault focus, but creates a niche for Terminators to fill?

[LeSwordfish]

Give Lysander a variant on the ability to fire after arriving that Deathwing have, which he passes to nearby terminators. Don't mess yourself up trying to replicate Titanhammer formations, just make a cool variant on what Imperial Fists already do.

(Sidenote: remember that Primaris Lysander is very unlikely to interact much with non-primaris units. If I were asked to write rules for his model under that restriction (since thats how GW operates) I would probably have him dole out special benefits to Gravis units nearby. There's not much in the primaris list that can do the kind of deep-strike-streetfight you want, so my set goal with Lysander would be to break up the primaris list's habit for digging in and castling up. And then i'd write some fluff for him based on that.

[Destro_Yersul]

How to fix terminators: Give them reroll saves against anything with AP0 and an ability that says enemy units can't Objective Secured within 6" of them. And maybe an extra wound or something.

[Cheesegear]

How to fix terminators: Give them reroll saves against anything with AP0 and an ability that says enemy units can't Objective Secured within 6" of them.

In 30K, I believe Terminators have ObSec. Then again, I haven't even glanced at 30K rules in years. So maybe it was a special way you had to build your army.

[LansXero]

I feel another problem with Terminators is that the way the game/meta as a whole works isn’t set up to make them able to be good? Due to the way hordes dominate there isn’t really space for a slow moving survivable elite unit: having more bodies is cheaper and better at holding objectives.

The first design question to answer then is ‘what niche do Terminators fill?’ From the lore, it feels to me like the answer could be ‘rapid insertion to a point and then holding that point against anything’. Despite appearances from assault terminators, they aren’t a close assault unit, they are a defensive unit. So trying to get them able to charge after teleporting in isn’t the way to fix them, other things fill that niche.

Are there abilities that could be given to Terminators that give them a new niche? As completely out of the box thinking, perhaps a rule or stratagem that changes when they deep strike in. Imagine if you could clear the enemy off an objective with shooting then land a unit of Terminators on it at the end of the shooting phase: with their base size they’ll easily be the only models within 3”, and with their survivability they will be difficult to clear off for the opponent. Doesn’t especially help Lysander, with his assault focus, but creates a niche for Terminators to fill?

Thats like... 1 / 2 VPs maybe? I mean, go ahead, score it, good for you, I'll be over here contesting the other 5/6s of the board. What do I care that you removed my unit? It already scored. Oh, so you denied me 1 'Defend' out of the deck? Well thats... thats something, sure, man those Rangers really will be missed, good thing you just landed 4 times their points to achieve that VP, on top of the shooting they tied up, got me there, thats a pro gamer move.

[hamishspence]

The point, the one that I've been trying to lead you to, is that Lysander is fine, it's terminators that need fixing - still, because they've been bad since ... whenever Assault termies were released? 4th? early 5th?

But then, if Lysander doesn't need fixing, if he is in fact already better at punching faces than the equivalent captain, why is he getting a host of new rules? If you fix terminators, does that not also resolve most if not all of your issues with Lysander?

Bring back the classic "4+ save on 2d6 instead of 1d6" terminator rules perhaps?