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2019-09-22, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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- Arkansas, U.S.
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Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I never knew until becoming a vegetarian roughly 9 years ago that a handful of people seem to passionately and irrationally despise vegetarians and vegans for their dietary choices, and it seems I'm still learning something new about it. Case in point: Hidden animal products, a lot of them behind the label of "natural flavors" or "natural dyes" or something like that.
I've known from the beginning that I'd need to do my research on this sort of thing, and that reading the labels wouldn't cut it. There's always room for improvement though... I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian.
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2019-09-23, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Those "natural flavors" and "natural colors" on the food labels aren't phrased that way to hide animal parts from vegetarians. The food companies do it to hide disgusting animal parts from everybody. Not even the most enthusiastic meat eater thinks "beaver anal gland extract" or "crushed beetle juice" sounds appealing.
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2019-09-23, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2017
- Location
- France
- Gender
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I dont know how common a legal obligation that is but dont the process foods you buy have lists of the ingredients used in them? Then provided you know which colorants and other additives have an animal origin (maybe keep a list with you when you go grocery shopping?) you can avoid products that dont meet your criteria.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-09-23, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
There's a point where the only way is to know animal products with names that belie that origin--since they're chemically altered, their origin is no longer marked by their name--and start knowing what's in processed food such that you can make a reasonable guess about where additives would be used.
There are multiple internet guides of vegetarians that provide lists of common ones. Here's an American one that marks things vegan, vegetarian, and non-veg. Here's an Australian one that includes their codes #s.
There's two tricky parts:
One, some ingredients like glycerin (and glycerin derivatives) and lecithin can come from vegetable or animal sources.
Two, at some point you just have to make a judgement call, because animal byproducts are used to construct artificial flavors and texturizers through alteration of the base molecule, and tracking down what the derivative was built from could become endless and fruitless.
If you're ovo-lacto a bunch of common additives are just isolates from egg white, egg yolks, and the various stages between milk and cheese. Your big enemy will be gelatin and gelatin derivatives plus the texturizer oleaic acid (an emulsifier, and thus in spreadable colloids).
Cochineal/carmine is smashed bug excretions, but not nearly as many products use it as they used to. Castoreum is derived from beaver anal glands...but basically nobody uses it for conventional processed food because it's expensive compared to fully synthetic flavors. Things that do use castoreum tend to sell that old-timey authenticity. Ditto isinglass as a beer clarifier: it's mighty rare unless you are around Belgian monks or homebrewing ultra-hipsters that grow their own hops.Last edited by Yanagi; 2019-09-23 at 01:35 AM.
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2019-09-23, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Gender
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2019-09-23, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Also very few foods are actually going to contain anything that has ever seen a bug. Most food-additives are going to be synthetically made because that's several times cheaper.
Basically "you are eating bugs" are what annoying vegans tell other people to be all smug and such.
It's not irrational. We got reasons. Vegans can be very very very, VERY annoying about their dietary choices.
I believe the answer to the question is : "stop eating any and all kinds of processed food".Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-09-23 at 03:29 AM.
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2019-09-23, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
If something is suitable for vegetarians, often the packaging will say so because that gets them more sales. So... stick to unprocessed veggies, nuts, and processed food that says "suitable for vegetarians" on it?
Also protip: learn to make your own potato chips. They're awesome for snacking and you'll know they don't have any animal byproducts in them if you make them yourself.
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2019-09-23, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
It's a legal requirement in the United States to display what's in food. That includes potential allergens and animal byproducts.
Also if anything is labeled with these
Casein from milk (a protein)
Lactose from milk (a sugar)
Whey from milk. Whey powder is in many products, look out for it in crisps, bread and baked products etc.
Collagen from the skin, bones, and connective tissues of animals such as cows, chickens, pigs, and fish used in cosmetics
Elastin found in the neck ligaments and aorta of bovine, similar to collagen
Keratin from the skin, bones, and connective tissues of animals such as cows, chickens, pigs, and fish
Gelatine/gelatin obtained by boiling skin, tendons, ligaments, and/or bones and is usually from cows or pigs. Used in jelly, chewy sweets, cakes, and in vitamins; as coating/capsules
Aspic industry alternative to gelatine; made from clarified meat, fish or vegetable stocks and gelatine
Lard/tallow animal fat
Shellac obtained from the bodies of the female scale insect Tachardia lacca
Honey food for bees, made by bees
Propolis used by bees in the construction of their hives
Royal Jelly secretion of the throat gland of the honeybee
Vitamin D3 from fish-liver oil; in creams, lotions and other cosmetics
Albumen/albumin from egg (typically)
Isinglass a substance obtained from the dried swim bladders of fish, and is used mainly for the clarification of wine and beer
Cod liver oil in lubricating creams and lotions, vitamins and supplements
Pepsin from the stomachs of pigs, a clotting agent used in vitamins
They're not Vegan.
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2019-09-23, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Bergen
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Just avoid preprocessed food in general and cook everything from scratch. The closest you'll come to hidden animal products in such cases are the unlabeled animal labour involved. Don't know about where you're from, but I expect it to be a cheaper alternative in the long run as well.
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2019-09-23, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Well, not as a deliberate food additive anyway. Pretty much all factory-line produced food have an 'acceptable contaminant' level.
Details of these limits that manufacturers have to meet are normally available from a country's food standards agency - the FDA lists these in their Food Defect Action Levels publication.
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2019-09-23, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
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- Over there!
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I can empathise with your situation, I am a man with food allergies that really get in the way of my shopping. Razade's list aside, my studious attention to packaging has taught me that a lot of brands will print "Vegan" or "suitable for vegetarians" on them, often with a symbol. I've also learned that most major brands of Smokey Bacon crisps are vegetarian, but most Cheese and Onion ones are not.
The world is dumb.
As for those people who dislike vegetarians and vegans, I can understand why. All you need to do is encounter a few like the one I knew in University (who remains the only person I ever asked to leave an RP group) who reacted to the sight of anyone eating something non-vegan as if they were eating human waste (seriously, with dramatic gagging they insisted as involuntary and looks of buggeyed horror) and I can imagine you go right off them. There are some very obnoxious and loud representatives is what I am saying. I'm used to getting similar reactions from some people because of my faith, just try and ignore it.GNU Terry Pratchett
My DMing advice.
Hong Kong
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2019-09-23, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
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2019-09-23, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Not really. You would need to learn a bunch of stuff, and/or make all your own food. Red food coloring is often crushed up bugs.
Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-09-24 at 09:03 AM.
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2019-09-23, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Shelf-stable 'bacon-flavored bits' meant for putting on salads and the likes ("Bacos" being the brand most of us in the USA remember the 80s-90s ad campaigns for) are usually vegan. Yes, the world is
dumbintensely strange.
As for those people who dislike vegetarians and vegans, I can understand why. All you need to do is encounter a few like the one I knew in University (who remains the only person I ever asked to leave an RP group) who reacted to the sight of anyone eating something non-vegan as if they were eating human waste (seriously, with dramatic gagging they insisted as involuntary and looks of buggeyed horror) and I can imagine you go right off them. There are some very obnoxious and loud representatives is what I am saying.
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2019-09-23, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Over there!
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
GNU Terry Pratchett
My DMing advice.
Hong Kong
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2019-09-23, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Gender
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Conversely, you can have vegetarians like a colleague I had at work, who had no problem with people eating meat so long as they understood where it came from. The one thing he couldn't stand was the sort of person who would refuse to eat rabbit meat because "Awww, so cute!" while being happy to tuck into a steak.
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2019-09-23, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Over there!
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I'm not saying that most vegetarians aren't nice people. Quite the reverse. I am saying that there are a few who are loud, obnoxious prats who give the rest a bad name, which is true of a lot of groups.
I think that it, naturally, tends to flare up at lunch is what makes some people really sensitive to the particular brand of prattishness.Last edited by Evil DM Mark3; 2019-09-23 at 10:33 AM.
GNU Terry Pratchett
My DMing advice.
Hong Kong
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2019-09-23, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I am a vegetarian, and I don't have a problem with "crushed beetle juice". (I am not that strict. I also wear leather.) Occasionally, I even eat bee vomit, which doesn't sound much more appetizing.
The only way to safely avoid hidden animal products is to only buy unprocessed foods.
Just recently I read that animal bone is used to get sugar extra white. (Not sure if it was cane or beet sugar that got that treatment. One of those).
So, the only way to be sure is to only buy completely unprocessed food in its original form. Whole grains. Whole lentils, beans, etc. It is perfectly possible to live on such a diet, you might, however, find it rather boring.
But be under no illusions, if your grains come from normal agriculture, (that is, anything that isn't reenactment, experimental archeology or Amish) they come with a price of flat hares and hamsters, and perhaps even the occasional mangled baby deer. Organic agriculture uses big machines, too.
That is not to say that meat-eaters are morally superior (as some annoying meat-eaters would claim), since cattle is nowadays fed with grain and soy, which increases the number of flattened cute animals tenfold in comparison to just eating the grain and soy directly. And of course, even the most enthusiastic meat eaters still eat grains. Unless perhaps they're Inuit living their traditional way of life, in which case the ethics of meat consumption are different anyway.
And of course, all forms of agriculture tend to kill bugs that want to eat the plants. There wouldn't be much of a harvest otherwise. (One of the reasons I don't feel too bad about eating crushed beetles.)
Personally, I just am too lazy to make absolutely sure I don't eat any meat products. I admire people who can do it, but I just don't have the energy.
There's annoying vegans and vegetarians, but I suspect many meat eaters secretly feel bad about their choices and resent people who have the strength to make different ones. (The same phenomenon can be observed in people who wish they could lose weight hating those who order only a small salad and who actually go to the gym twice a week, and people who drink alcohol taking offense at teetotallers who are just minding their own business. I have not personally encountered people who were nasty about me not drinking alcohol, but lots of people who wanted to get me to drink alcohol. Some even admitted they were embarrassed about being drunk with a sober person there. They were perfectly nice people and didn't behave very embarrassingly, but I can easily imagine how less nice people would feel the same things and express those feelings in a much nastier way.)Last edited by Themrys; 2019-09-23 at 02:21 PM.
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2019-09-23, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Location
- Santa Barbara, CA
- Gender
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
As for avoiding animal additives under generic chemical labels...basically look for those that at advertising to you about it (aka they tell you with words and symbols), probably pay the markup based more on healthy marketing research than actual higher costs, and hope that those in charge of such claims have some sort of actual standards and a way to enforce them. (in many places they don't, want St John'd wort extract-maybe half of what is labeled as such actually contains if according to DNA testing a couple years back).
Other than that cook from scratch with whole foods.
And no matter what there will be bugs in your food. In your fresh thrice washed spinach included.
{scrubbed}
As for annoying vegetarians/vegans etc..I generally figure it comes down to two main points.
A: many wave it around as a sort moral superiority issue. They place themselves on a high horse and beat their chest about it. . . Similar behavior can be found in many religious holier-than-thou types and political purity test types of all parties. They are all annoying. Especially to those who have made a different moral judgment and dislike being badgered about it. These people are the source of the "How do you find the vegan in a crowd / don't worry they will tell you" jokes. They contain a degree of truth about the less socialized types.
B: it often feels like vegetarians impose their beliefs on omnivores. Group is eating out? The person most likely to limit options of where to go is the vegan and everybody else has to deal. Homecooked meal? The vegetarian gets a special plate. Now most vegetarians are quite well behaved about this and mitigate as they can. But enough do not to fuel bad memories for many people which are set off even by the well behaved ones. And many of the annoying set can get very pushy in general about it...which is when things combine with the above moral high horse behavior. And in any case their choices become a source of social friction. And sources or said friction tend to be disliked...especially when it is a choice...and especially when people think they are being effected by that choice they didn't make.
Other than that...make friends with legumes...nuts are water hogs...get a soy-milk maker if you like those products as home made is a big step up (after you figure out if you like okara or what to do with it...myself it is the only soy product I like)
personal note which may colour the above:
I generally hold if you are not willing to kill and butcher an animal you shouldn't eat it. So I have gone out of my way to get such opportunities. I think if you are gonna eat meat you should be willing to get your hands bloody and turn a liking being into food and be comfortable with that - a long term side effect of going to a vegetarian grammar school.Last edited by sktarq; 2019-09-23 at 06:16 PM.
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2019-09-23, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
I will note that, at least in the USA, there is a limit to how detailed food ingredient labeling has to be. Companies are allowed to be vague and say things like "natural flavors" or "spices" without going into detail. I'm not a strict enough vegetarian that I worry about it for that reason, but I am allergic to peppers, and paprika is made from dried peppers (and is commonly used both as a spice and as a "natural" colorant), so I have a lot of problems with buying food in general due to this rule and I'd love to see it changed.
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2019-09-23, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
It's also one of those weird moments where somebody confuses something they find gross in concept with something everyone finds gross in practice.
Setting aside the fact that people eat bugs (and have for millennia; aside: it seems like vegetarians should ENCOURAGE eating bugs if they're of the "meat is bad for you/the environment" variety given there's basically an unlimited source of them out there), most people don't really care where their food comes from so long as it tastes good and doesn't kill them. Yeah, Jell-o might be primarily made of animal bone powder, and most people know that...but they keep eating it, because in the grand scheme that doesn't actually matter at all.
And I'm unclear what the issue with this is, either. Most people don't eat pet animals like cats and dogs. Rabbits are often pets; ergo you find it strange to eat a rabbit rather than a cow, which is not generally a pet.
Many people who live in a city have never encountered and may possibly not even think about wild rabbits as a thing.
You outline the reason people feel bad in your post, though don't seem to realize it. People don't like to be judged. If they think you're judging them, they will be uncomfortable.
It's not that they secretly "know they're doing wrong", it's that they think they're hanging out with someone who secretly thinks they're doing wrong, which makes it difficult to connect with that person because now there's the doubt in your mind that they actually want to be your friend or what have you at all. It's that thought process that leads to the perceived-to-be judgy person de facto ostracized from groups, which tends to reinforce their thought pattern that they are right and the others are wrong.
That's a frustrating logic chain because it's the exact same one certain groups use to judge certain other minority groups. "Oh they wouldn't be defensive about it if they didn't know it was wrong", "You wouldn't be so mad if you didn't think I was right deep down..."
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2019-09-24, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Over there!
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
Last edited by Evil DM Mark3; 2019-09-24 at 04:48 AM.
GNU Terry Pratchett
My DMing advice.
Hong Kong
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2019-09-24, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
As an omnivore. I hope we can get lab grown meat faster. Healthier, safer and controlled alternatives to cut down on factory farming is something I'm all for.
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2019-09-24, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
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2019-09-24, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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2019-09-24, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2019-09-24, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Over there!
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Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
GNU Terry Pratchett
My DMing advice.
Hong Kong
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2019-09-24, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
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2019-09-24, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
My wife does not eat pork, or beef. She does eat chicken and fish. It is often easier to say that she is vegetarian. Still she VERY OFTEN gets bacon in nigh everything. I swear bacon is in everything that you order. Pay attention that next time you order something.
Water? Bacon is in it.
Bacon? They somehow add bacon to it!Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-09-24 at 09:15 AM.
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2019-09-24, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?
What a fantastic age we live in.
There was a time I found it fairly ridiculous, too, until I tried a bacon-topped, maple-frosted donut, and forever cursed my feeble mortal arteries. Then I found out how bad vegetable oil is and started saving bacon grease to cook potatoes and zucchini crisps instead. Anecdotal, sure, but in the years since I began this my health has genuinely improved.
I'm not knocking vegetarians, but i feel sorry that they choose to exclude such yumminess.