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2019-09-16, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I've seen several threads about using the druid wild shape to transform into a spider (or other small insect) to sneak around a dungeon undetected, and I love that idea.
I have a human variant druid with the magic initiate feat (wizard), who has chosen the spell Find Familiar. If the druid has a familiar that can fly (hawk, owl, raven, etc.), is there any RAW reason why the druid couldn't wild shape into a spider/flea/etc., and ride on the familiar's back? Or, if holding on is a concern, could the druid crawl into a small pouch around the familiar's neck and look through the familiar's eyes to travel to a high location?
It seems like this would be a viable way to cross caverns, get to high places, etc., even at 2nd level.
What do you all think of this approach?
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2019-09-16, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I really like this approach. It works perfectly, as long as the Familiar doesn't die, and is very creative. I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't work, and its a far cry better then my old method of Reducing myself and then using Mage Hand to fly me around.
Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane
Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D
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2019-09-16, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
It works.
You can use a normal tamed (and trained) animal for this too (or use Animal Messenger to 'point' the animal, provided there's a creature near your destination that can receive the message [it doesn't need to understand it]), but it is far less reliable.
Mage Hand doesn't work that way. It only interacts with objects.
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2019-09-16, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I don't see any rule that would prevent this either. And I agree it's very clever.
Spoiler: hidden behind a tag because I can't get resizing attributes to workJust remember... if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
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2019-09-16, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
RAW, you must be one size smaller than your mount. Your Familiar is Tiny. You cannot be smaller than Tiny. Therefore, you cannot ride your familiar.
However, your familiar can probably carry you.
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2019-09-16, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Here's how it works: Be a Small creature like a Halfling or Goblin, drop your backpack as a free action, cast Enlarge/Reduce to shrink yourself to Tiny while halving all of your proportions and cutting your total weight to 1/8th of your original size, climb in the backpack, have Mage Hand carry the backpack. The backpack is an object.
Now, as a Halfling, your average size is about 3 feet tall and 40 pounds. Meaning you can be shorter and lighter then that if you wish. As long as you weigh 80 pounds or less, Mage Hand can carry you with Enlarge/Reduce. The only downside is that both spells only last 1 minute. So if you're an Arcane Trickster, you can only go about 540 feet using your action and bonus action to move the Hand
EDIT: If the backpack doesn't work for you, just tie rope around yourself, cast Reduce, and have it carry the rope and, by extension, you.
Also, Mage Hand isn't concentration, so you can 100% have both spells going at onceLast edited by sithlordnergal; 2019-09-16 at 03:08 AM.
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2019-09-19, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
It's a fair point, and clearly I confused the issue with the term "ride." To be clear, I wasn't referring to using it as a mount; I was referring to the familiar carrying my character. Whether it carries the spider by having the spider hold into its back or by wearing pouch around its neck is a tactical decision. As long as they are not brushed off, spiders are often good at holding on to much larger creatures as they move.
The pouch is probably better, as it would likely avoid me needing to make any kind of strength of dexterity checks to hold on if the owl needs to dodge an arrow.
Also, Maelynn, I love the reference to the Rescuers Down Under. I hadn't thought of that one.
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2019-09-19, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Seems legit to me, I would allow it in a campaign I were DMing. Although I would also have monsters wondering why there was an owl or a hawk flying around an underground dungeon and have some of them see the familiar as a tasty snack.
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2019-09-19, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2019-09-19, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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2019-09-19, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I suspect you could use Animal Friendship, and could possibly even use Animal Messenger if you just need to travel.
The difficulty is probably in the need to overcome the animal's natural tendencies. Your DM might say the animal messenger attempts to remove the pouch from around its neck, or the friendly creature even tries to eat your character in its Wild Shape form. The animal is friendly, but has natural tendencies. Animals groom themselves to remove ticks, spiders, etc.
Find Familiar would ensure that your familiar and you work in sync with no misunderstandings.
Beyond that, I think you're spot on.
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2019-09-19, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
It would work as long as you could find a beast to cast it on, and they aren't always available in dungeons. Also, there is a DM call on whether a beast with intelligence of 4 still recognizes you as you after you have wildshaped, or does it recognize you as food at that point?
Pronouns he/him/his
5e Homebrew Subclass Creation Guide - PEACH | Extended Homebrew Post
My Dungeon Master's Guild Entries, Pay What you want
Spoiler: 5e Subclass Contest Wins
● IV-Pinball Wizard
● VI-Luchador Bard
● XIII-Rogue, Tavern Wench
● XV-Monk, Way of the Shrine Guardian
● XVI-Cleric, Madness Domain
● XVIII-Fighter, Chef
● XXI-Artificer, Battling Bowman
● XXV-Ley Line Sorcerer
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2019-09-19, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I actually feel bad that I haven't made this connection earlier.
However, a Familiar picked up with a feat (either RC or MI) you can communicate with telepathically. So Animal Friend Airlines could take you to that spot over there, while you can actively direct a familiar.Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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2019-09-19, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2019-09-19, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I don't think you can bypass the mount rules by waving your hand and saying "it's not a mount, it's a creature carrying another creature". That's a mount. That's what a mount is. And a mount has to be one size bigger than it's rider or larger. 5e has no size smaller than tiny. So this doesn't work by RAW. It's reasonable and I would allow it, but it isn't RAW.
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2019-09-19, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Now that i think about it, Tiny is pretty big for a spider, it's the same category that cats and hawks. Certainly not the normal spider.
Is there any monster in the MM with a Diminutive size? Or in any book?Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2019-09-19, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-19, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
You deciding that a creature carrying another creature is a mount is not RAW, it is a ruling. It is entirely possible that RAW leaves a situation unclear, and a ruling is required, but then declaring that ruling to be RAW (and/or that other interpretations aren't RAW) is pretty nebulous.
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2019-09-19, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
So if you grapple then shove a creature larger than you, is it now your mount? It's a creature carrying another creature.
If you pick up a creature smaller than you, are you its mount? It's a creature carrying another creature.
If you're an small sized Chainlock with at-will Levitate being pushed around by your familiar, which of you is the mount?Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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2019-09-19, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
I do rulings > rules at my table, and all good DMs should.
The OP asked, specifically, for any RAW reasons why his tactic wouldn't work. He didn't ask if it should work, or if I would allow it at my table (though I said it should and I would) he asked:
is there any RAW reason why the druid couldn't wild shape into a spider/flea/etc., and ride on the familiar's back?
Grapple rules are explicit and have nothing to do with mount rules. Levitate spells out exactly what it does and no mount rules are required. Your second situation could be an application of the mount rules, yes.
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2019-09-22, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
There seems to be a self-contradiction here. The fact that it's one creature carrying another is not what makes it a mount. To be a mount (and gain all of the benefits of a mount, such as Cavalier benefits), it must be one size larger. If it's not one size larger, it's not a mount, it's one creature carrying another.
A tiny creature can carry another tiny creature, provided it has enough strength to carry the weight. The same for a medium or large creature.
It seems to get squirrelly is when something happens that would potentially cause the druid to fall off (say, someone shoots at the familiar with an arrow). For a mount, you have mount rules. For this scenario, you would probably need to either have the familiar make a strength check to hold onto the druid (say, if carrying in its claws), or the druid make a strength check to hold onto the familiar (say, if it's riding on its back).
It's analogous to someone being attacked while carrying their fallen comrade. Clearly the person carrying the body isn't a mount, but holding on during the attack would be difficult.
That's why I figured crawling into a pouch around the familiar's neck would be a better approach, as it would eliminate all of these "mount" questions.
EDIT: Also, one other point...
I would love to see a sage advice ruling on that one. It seems like someone could make a pretty nasty Master Blaster (from Thunderdome) character if that's true. I would love to hear more about how a halfling cavalier can do mounted combat whilst riding on a human's back. Such opportunities.Last edited by douglasbushong; 2019-09-22 at 11:47 PM. Reason: There were two messages to respond to; consolidating into one.
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2019-09-23, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
It's situations like this that always reaffirm my stance of "rule as favorably as you can with your players intent in mind".
Is it really beneficial for anyone to try and force the mounting rules into this situation when all it takes to make it "functional" is to have them stowed in a carried object instead? I would say no myself. Any benefits they would be afforded by being on the creatures back rather than in some sort of pouch are minimal and I don't personally see an issue with being lenient in this case.
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2019-09-23, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
So.. if a dragon swoops down and picks me up, i have mounted the dragon?
Mounting isn't just about carriage, its also about level of control.
The villagers that live on the back of an island size dragon turtle can hardly be considered as 'mounted'.Last edited by Capac Amaru; 2019-09-23 at 12:20 AM.
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2019-09-23, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Last edited by Tharkun; 2019-09-23 at 10:38 AM.
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2019-09-23, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
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2019-09-23, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
Think very carefully about how strict you want to be with this, it's all fun and games until a group of kids get into a wrestling match, one of them is knocked prone and he's magically jettisoned off of their dragon turtle because he has to land on a square beside the turtle.
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2019-09-23, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
And again I'll remind everyone that the OP specifically requested a discussion of RAW. Anything I'm saying should be read through that filter. Situations not handled by RAW, (or which would break the believability of the simulation if ruled as RAW) are irrelevant.
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2019-09-23, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
And again, RAW what you are saying makes no sense.
One creature carrying another doesn't constitute a rider/mount situation, its fairly obvious, but if you want "an explanation within the rules", then the easiest is this:
On the example the dragon dive grabbing someone, that someone doesn't contest the grab, therefore is willing, according to you the dragon becomes the mount, then the grabbed creature can choose to "control its mount" and therefore control the dragons movement, kek
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2019-09-23, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate
You are conflating carrying and mounted rules. In chapter 7 of the PHB you will find the carry rules.
You are making a ruling that any creature carrying another creature is a mount. That is not RAW.
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2019-09-23, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Level 2 Druid bypass Wild Shape flight restriction with Magic Initiate