Monk... Why do they suck?

[dextercorvia]

Contemplative?

[Elric VIII]

Contemplative?

Oh, good point.

[Telonius]

O Monk, why dost thou sucketh? Let me count the ways.
One for the hits that never fall,
Two for base attack bonus so small.
Three for unarmed strike, no proficiency there.
Four, for non-synergizing abilities to spare.
Five, for the wizard thou canst not kill;
Six, for the Bracers of Armor bill.
Seven, for the flight thou ever desire;
Eight, for the threads thou dost inspire.
Though Swordsage all shiny and sparkly be,
My heart shall always go out to thee.

[Keld Denar]

Bravo! Very well played, good sir!

[Malevolence]

That's....kinda stupid. Why would an Unarmed Swordsage not be proficient in unarmed strikes?

Same reason that Monks aren't?

1. False. It doesn't give imp grapple, which helps druids.

1: You are a Druid. This means that if you want to grapple something, and it can be grappled, it is grappled regardless.
2: You are a Druid. This means that aside from your level 6 feat being Natural Spell, every last one of your slots are open.
3: Everything that matters can't be grappled.

2. It doesn't clearly give imp unarmed strike ( one assumes that it would, but...)

And Monks are not proficient with their own bodies. Your point is what, exactly?

3. It doesn't clearly give wis to AC. Most Playgrounders assume that it does, but some DMs rule otherwise, and PF clarifies that it doesn't if you are in a PF game. I'm not arguing the RAW either way, just saying that it isn't something you can count on.

You gain "the AC bonus of a 5th level Monk". Which means Wisdom + 1. It's very clear cut. Bad houserules, including and especially PF do not invalidate this point.

4. Esp if wilding clasps aren't available, DM could rule that some forms can't wear the rope belt.

Most forms have a waist.

5. Intelligent enemies may notice that your bear is wearing a rope belt, and Sunder it, which would suck.

If a DM ever uses the Sunder maneuver at all, the correct response is to have your Druid completely destroy his campaign, as he is obviously a terrible person. Not to mention if you were anything other than a pure class Druid, you'd be even more irrevocable screwed.

That is only under 1/2 WBL at level 8. Druids may want to be in melee before level 8. They may also have other things to do with their WBL. Or they may be in a campaign that gives less than WBL. Or it may be a game with no magic marts. You could craft one, but not until 10th level and you would need a Cleric to help.

And at 5-7 actual armor does more for you. At 1-4 it does a lot more, not to mention you can't Wild Shape. For example, a Wis of 20 is only +6 AC with a Monk's Belt. Normal armor adds around +9 at this level, and that's not counting the Animated shield (you can get both for the same price).

Sacred Exorcist is often used as a dip to get DMM. It requires know religion. Whether or not this is beneficial depends on build. My party members love my mass lesser vigor (persisted) every morning. YMMV.

How many ranks, exactly? If it's 4 or less, you just cross class it. If it's 5 or more you use one of your many extra feats to take Knowledge Devotion, adding Knowledge: Religion to your class list and then simply max it. This is a good idea anyways if you're focusing on melee, which is kind of assumed due to the high number of attacks on most animals + Insight bonuses to attack and damage on all of them.

That way you're still down 1 Druid level, but actually have a somewhat plausible reason for it.

O Monk, why dost thou sucketh? Let me count the ways.
One for the hits that never fall,
Two for base attack bonus so small.
Three for unarmed strike, no proficiency there.
Four, for non-synergizing abilities to spare.
Five, for the wizard thou canst not kill;
Six, for the Bracers of Armor bill.
Seven, for the flight thou ever desire;
Eight, for the threads thou dost inspire.
Though Swordsage all shiny and sparkly be,
My heart shall always go out to thee.

Nice. Stolen.

[JaronK]

Same reason that Monks aren't?

Monks aren't because Unarmed Strikes aren't in their list of proficient weapons. They are in the Swordsage list though (because they're simple weapons).

JaronK

[Firechanter]

Seriously, is there _anyone_ who doesn't treat this as a mere clerical error?
(Or would that be a "monastic error" in this case?)

P.S.: a big hand to Telonius, that's awesome ^^

[Seerow]

Seriously, is there _anyone_ who doesn't treat this as a mere clerical error?
(Or would that be a "monastic error" in this case?)

Nope. All tables require monks take Feat Proficiency (Unarmed Weapons). The few who don't are nasty homebrewers, not playing by RAW as the developers intended.

[Gametime]

You gain "the AC bonus of a 5th level Monk". Which means Wisdom + 1. It's very clear cut. Bad houserules, including and especially PF do not invalidate this point.

Well, if you want to take that text completely literally, you'd gain a bonus to AC equal to X+1, where X is the wisdom bonus of whatever 5th level monk is being referenced in the item description. Whether it's always the same monk, or a randomly chosen monk, or a monk chosen by the item crafter, I have no idea, but the text pretty clearly states you gain THAT monk's AC bonus, not the bonus that would be granted if you had the monk's class feature.

Actually, looking at the text, I don't see "bonus" following AC. If we're taking the words at face value, you gain the EXACT armor class of this hypothetical 5th level monk. Huh. What an awful item.

[Elric VIII]

Well, if you want to take that text completely literally, you'd gain a bonus to AC equal to X+1, where X is the wisdom bonus of whatever 5th level monk is being referenced in the item description. Whether it's always the same monk, or a randomly chosen monk, or a monk chosen by the item crafter, I have no idea, but the text pretty clearly states you gain THAT monk's AC bonus, not the bonus that would be granted if you had the monk's class feature.

Actually, looking at the text, I don't see "bonus" following AC. If we're taking the words at face value, you gain the EXACT armor class of this hypothetical 5th level monk. Huh. What an awful item.

Wait, doesn't everyone play it this way?

[dextercorvia]

And then they follow it up with this: "This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

[Elric VIII]

And then they follow it up with this: "This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

does that mean if the Monk in question gets hit by something that you also get hit, regardless of your proximity?

[JaronK]

No, if you have his AC, then if something hits you he gets hit instead. That's what happens if you hit against someone's AC... that person gets hit.

Wow, that's hilarious. I think I'll have to go around crafting Monk's Belts made with a Learnean Lumi Monk 5!

JaronK

[dextercorvia]

Yet another reason not to take Monk levels. You might get whacked out of nowhere if someone's Monk's Belt is keyed to you.

[2xMachina]

Well, if you want to take that text completely literally, you'd gain a bonus to AC equal to X+1, where X is the wisdom bonus of whatever 5th level monk is being referenced in the item description. Whether it's always the same monk, or a randomly chosen monk, or a monk chosen by the item crafter, I have no idea, but the text pretty clearly states you gain THAT monk's AC bonus, not the bonus that would be granted if you had the monk's class feature.

Actually, looking at the text, I don't see "bonus" following AC. If we're taking the words at face value, you gain the EXACT armor class of this hypothetical 5th level monk. Huh. What an awful item.

I'll take that to mean that the AC of a Monk sucks. If it's bad, you don't want Monk's Belt or a Monk lvl at all.

On the other hand... you can dump Wis/AC, and take a Monk's Belt of a Wise monk. Wizard running around with Monk's Belt anyone? (13k for belt replaces need for Bracers of Armor. And use Miss chance to shore up defence.)
Practically everyone get's a Monk's bonus without even having to have Wis. So, Monk is even more useless, as everyone else gets what it has.

I Shock trooper for full! My AC is -, but because of Monk's belt, it's set to a + number regardless.

[Malevolence]

Well, if you want to take that text completely literally, you'd gain a bonus to AC equal to X+1, where X is the wisdom bonus of whatever 5th level monk is being referenced in the item description. Whether it's always the same monk, or a randomly chosen monk, or a monk chosen by the item crafter, I have no idea, but the text pretty clearly states you gain THAT monk's AC bonus, not the bonus that would be granted if you had the monk's class feature.

Actually, looking at the text, I don't see "bonus" following AC. If we're taking the words at face value, you gain the EXACT armor class of this hypothetical 5th level monk. Huh. What an awful item.

It doesn't specify a specific character.

This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

It's very clear cut.

[Gametime]

Yes, it is very clear cut: You gain the AC (and unarmed damage) of a 5th level monk. The second sentence is incoherent because it refers to a non-existent bonus. A thing is not the same as a bonus to a thing; the sentence describing what the item actually gives you mentions a thing, but the sentence following it describes a bonus.

It's sensible to read that as poor editing and assume that the second sentence indicates the word "bonus" should be included in the sentence describing what the item does for non-monks. But that's not what the item actually says. We're talking RAW, here; there's no room for sensible interpretations or allowances of human error. One sentence tells you you get the AC of a 5th level monk, so that's what your AC is. The second sentence refers to an AC bonus that doesn't apply to anything in the item's function, so it's superfluous. It's not like that's the first case of a redundant or meaningless sentence popping up in an item description.

[Kylarra]

I'll take that to mean that the AC of a Monk sucks. If it's bad, you don't want Monk's Belt or a Monk lvl at all.

On the other hand... you can dump Wis/AC, and take a Monk's Belt of a Wise monk. Wizard running around with Monk's Belt anyone? (13k for belt replaces need for Bracers of Armor. And use Miss chance to shore up defence.)
Practically everyone get's a Monk's bonus without even having to have Wis. So, Monk is even more useless, as everyone else gets what it has.

I Shock trooper for full! My AC is -, but because of Monk's belt, it's set to a + number regardless.

Unless everyone is following your idea, in which case the belt is set to null since there are no monks to attune to.


DIVIDE BY ZERO

[The Glyphstone]

Unless everyone is following your idea, in which case the belt is set to null since there are no monks to attune to.


DIVIDE BY ZERO

Spoiler

Show

[Gwendol]

Assumptions. They start out 5 feet away. The wizard has no buffs or contingencies up. Wizard chooses to be CE. All summons and gated creatures also roll only nat 1s.

Wizard uses WBL to buy some padded armor of greater fortification. This makes wizard immune to crits. No stunning fist or quivering palm. Wiz also buys a heavy constitution + item to survive round 1.

Monk wins init. 5 foot steps to wizard & full attacks. Crits 3 times (negated by armor) for average 31+ strx3 damage. Last 2 attacks are both grapples, pinning the wizard.

Wizard casts silent Dimension Door (His concentration check should allow him to succeed on a 1), and is now 900 feet away from the monk.

Monk full runs towards wizard. Base speed 90, we will give him run as a bonus feat and free 30 move from somewhere, monk is now 300 feet from wizard.

Wizard casts Gate. Balor appears right next to monk. Wizard shouts "I order you to stand next to that guy and use Blasphemy for the next 2 minutes."

Balor uses Blasphemy for the next 20 rounds. Monk is Dazed (no save) for the next 20 rounds. 20 rounds of 5 magic missiles each kills monk.

I'm sure there are other ways.

Well, you haven't even begun to optimize the monk in any way shape or form.

Let's try that fight against a slightly more challenging opponent:

Goliath Barbarian X/Monk 19-X where X is whatever level of Lion Totem Barbarian is needed to get pounce (and yes, there will be an alignement shift along the way).

Feats (needed): Power attack, Flying kick, Improved natural attack, and for good measure Mage slayer

Equipment: Enlarge person (permanent), Girallon's blessing (permanent, and for ultimate cheese the Savage Species version), boots of speed with anklets of translocation add-on. Monk belt, although it's hardly needed.

Given a starting STR of 16 add on +4 for from race, and +2 from level up and/or item (enlarge person adds another 2) we end up with a strength of 24.

Monk wins init, activates his boots of speed and his anklets of translocation to hop back 10', then charges and full attacks.

Monk has 8 arms, +2 attacks from FoB, and another attack from Haste (the boots) and power attacks fully (-15/+15).

Since he only rolls 20, every attack hits. Every unarmed strike deals (6d8+7) doubled + 15 from PA. That's 12d8+29. For every hit. Remember his unarmed strikes are equivalent of those of a Huge monk.

You end up with an average damage of 649. That's a tall order for a 20d4 creature.

[Doc Roc]

Well, you haven't even begun to optimize the monk in any way shape or form.

Let's try that fight against a slightly more challenging opponent:

Goliath Barbarian X/Monk 19-X where X is whatever level of Lion Totem Barbarian is needed to get pounce (and yes, there will be an alignement shift along the way).

Feats (needed): Power attack, Flying kick, Improved natural attack, and for good measure Mage slayer

Equipment: Enlarge person (permanent), Girallon's blessing (permanent, and for ultimate cheese the Savage Species version), boots of speed with anklets of translocation add-on. Monk belt, although it's hardly needed.

Given a starting STR of 16 add on +4 for from race, and +2 from level up and/or item (enlarge person adds another 2) we end up with a strength of 24.

Monk wins init, activates his boots of speed and his anklets of translocation to hop back 10', then charges and full attacks.

Monk has 8 arms, +2 attacks from FoB, and another attack from Haste (the boots) and power attacks fully (-15/+15).

Since he only rolls 20, every attack hits. Every unarmed strike deals (6d8+7) doubled + 15 from PA. That's 12d8+29. For every hit. Remember his unarmed strikes are equivalent of those of a Huge monk.

You end up with an average damage of 649. That's a tall order for a 20d4 creature.

With those same books, I am almost certainly immune to HP damage, and you'll never connect with MDJ. Trust me.

[Gwendol]

Certainly, but that wasn't the case in the quoted hypothetical match-up.

[Leon]

The Benefit of these Monk threads is to let all you who dislike them vent frequently otherwise it would all end messily when the monk hate built up to much.

[Gnaeus]

Certainly, but that wasn't the case in the quoted hypothetical match-up.

The quoted hypothetical matchup was monk 20. If you get to dip higher tier classes for their abilities, I will counter with Abrupt Jaunt. Goliath is an LA race, and if you buy it off you won't have enough xp to get to level 20.

Yes, it is possible to build a pounce charge build that can beat a wizard under those conditions. Black ethergaunt Monk 20 certainly beats wizard 20. But not because of the strength of Monk.

If you start with permanent buffs, I can too, including Contingency in core. Only difference is that you had to have a high level caster cast your buffs, while the wizard did it himself. How about Contingency: The first time I get hit, I D Door 1200 feet in the direction I am facing.

It is pretty clear that the moment the wizard gets one action, the monk threat drops to 0.

[Malevolence]

Well, you haven't even begun to optimize the monk in any way shape or form.

Let's try that fight against a slightly more challenging opponent:

Goliath Barbarian X/Monk 19-X where X is whatever level of Lion Totem Barbarian is needed to get pounce (and yes, there will be an alignement shift along the way).

Feats (needed): Power attack, Flying kick, Improved natural attack, and for good measure Mage slayer

Equipment: Enlarge person (permanent), Girallon's blessing (permanent, and for ultimate cheese the Savage Species version), boots of speed with anklets of translocation add-on. Monk belt, although it's hardly needed.

Given a starting STR of 16 add on +4 for from race, and +2 from level up and/or item (enlarge person adds another 2) we end up with a strength of 24.

Monk wins init, activates his boots of speed and his anklets of translocation to hop back 10', then charges and full attacks.

Monk has 8 arms, +2 attacks from FoB, and another attack from Haste (the boots) and power attacks fully (-15/+15).

Since he only rolls 20, every attack hits. Every unarmed strike deals (6d8+7) doubled + 15 from PA. That's 12d8+29. For every hit. Remember his unarmed strikes are equivalent of those of a Huge monk.

You end up with an average damage of 649. That's a tall order for a 20d4 creature.

Good thing Mr. Wizard only has around a 5% chance to be hit without counting AC. And all manner of contingencies, including ones that instantly revive him with no drawback if slain. And that's if he doesn't just STEELGUARD! away the entire attack.

[Firechanter]

Just FYI, the original hypothetical matchup was core-only.

[Gwendol]

My bad.

The build is terrible with the poor sod looking more like a giant caterpillar than anything else. My point was really not to try and prove the monk is better than the wizard, just that they are not quite as bad as one can think reading this board. Also, they can be a lot of fun to play: I'm on my second.

[LordBlades]

My bad.

The build is terrible with the poor sod looking more like a giant caterpillar than anything else. My point was really not to try and prove the monk is better than the wizard, just that they are not quite as bad as one can think reading this board. Also, they can be a lot of fun to play: I'm on my second.

Your build mainly draws it's strength from being a Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian not from being a Monk. You can replace those monk levels with anything but commoner, and the build will probably increase in power.

[Gwendol]

No. I could just as well have used a Catfolk monk 19 with the pounce feat and ending up doing more or less the same damage. The Goliath is not required for this particular attack, but his powerful build makes grappling, etc, more fun.

The build centers on getting double damage on a charge (flying kick), and from the many arms, thus making the power attack count. FoB and being hasted helps quite a lot.

[LordBlades]

No. I could just as well have used a Catfolk monk 19 with the pounce feat and ending up doing more or less the same damage. The Goliath is not required for this particular attack, but his powerful build makes grappling, etc, more fun.

The build centers on getting double damage on a charge (flying kick), and from the many arms, thus making the power attack count. FoB and being hasted helps quite a lot.

Nothing of what you did relies on being a monk. You can do at least as good with Catfolk <generic class>. It does not prove that monk is good, merely that pounce+flying kick is.