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Thread: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
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2017-12-09, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
You know, Jurassic World was in development for a long time and we've got two movies in a row that explicitly state that the Park's dinos aren't "real" dinos.
The franchise might just be moving away from "pure" dino to just "genetically engineered monsters" in general.
Like, half the things in the Indominus weren't even dinosaurs.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2017-12-09, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Seconded. Petty escapism is fun.
Originally Posted by Michael Crichton
ETA: I found that quote while looking for a different one on how Crichton claimed he typically did little to no research. Couldn't find it (don't even know if I'm remembering it right), but that seemed good enough for your issue.Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-09 at 04:42 PM.
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2017-12-10, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
You know, I was going to say that you were being ridiculous and overly melodramatic, but then I realized I feel the exact same way whenever I watch TV and hear someone who should know better say "begs the question" when they mean "raises the question".
At this point I feel it is a lost cause though, its only a matter of time before they just redefine it like they did "literally".Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2017-12-13, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
It doesn't look fun.
There's more than a minute of tedious volcano fleeing...which I can only guess is some attempt to be bleaker than what came before? What's the appeal here? Aren't turn your brain off generic style disaster/creature features supposed to have some sense of play to them? I'm not seeing it.
I'm just uninterested in whether anything in this island lives or dies. And I cried when I saw The Land Before Time on television as a 5 year old.
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2017-12-15, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
SpoilerThey governments of the world could have decided to end the Dinosaur problem and set bombs off inside a volcanic vent. There is nothing in the trailer - that I saw - that would lead me to believe this is a natural occurrence. It feels like per-meditated euthanasia with a dramatic, Hollywood twist.
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2017-12-15, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-15, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
I used to be a big dinosaur buff when I was younger, but I'm pretty out of touch with the research these days. Do we have direct evidence that, say, Carnotaurus or Stegasaurs were feathered?
I'm fine with smaller dinosaurs being feathered, and I can see it for larger specimens up north (a la woolly mammoths) but I think one can raise some legitimate questions about extremely large animals like the T-Rex or Brachiosaurs needing to retain heat in tropical climates. That's a pretty large chunk of the casting in JP.
Anomalocaris was the stuff of nightmares, but not actually very big by human standards.
Some of those boney-jawed fish would be cool, I guess, but where do you get a DNA sample?Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-12-16, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
There's fairly reasonable theories from skin imprints and stuff that a fair amount of larger theropods might have been born with some protective down, and progressively lose it while growing. Small dinosaur babies need the temperature keeping a lot more than gigantic masses of muscle, after all.
So old T-Rex dad would probably not have feathers beyond maybe a crest to look better to potential mates, but T-rex younglings may very well have looked like murder chicks .
We have no signs that I'm aware of pointing to any large feathered sauropod. They're rather entirely different evolutionary families.Last edited by Drascin; 2017-12-16 at 04:43 AM.
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2017-12-16, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
There's hints of feathers in ornithischians though - which split very early in dinosaur evolution from saurischians.
There's even the possibility that feather-prototypes evolved prior to the dinosaur/pterosaur split:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur
I would suggest that the spines on animals like Diplodocus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplodocus
might actually be quills. (The species confirmed as having spines appears to now be considered a new genus, Kaatedocus).Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-16 at 04:50 AM.
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2017-12-16, 06:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
I think, for big dinosaurs, a good counterpart would be elephants or hippos. They have hair - just sparse hair, so they look almost bare. Dinosaur feathers might be the same way.
Deinocheirus (a giant ornithomimosaur the size of T. rex) had feather attachments visible on its tail bones - so size may not be a problem when it comes to having at least some feathers.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2017-12-16, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
It almost certainly was temperature dependent. Some lived in places with cold snowt winters, including many T-Rex. Like mammoths to elephants the amount of temperature control needed was contextual.
For this reason using modern Megafauna is a bad example. We ate the majority of megafauna outside of Africa, but those were often larger and had more hair.
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2017-12-16, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-02, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Regarding velociraptors and continuity:
They could easily solved the issue by:
1) Making some real velociraptors, and putting them in the petting zoo
2) Also making some more of the original raptors, because everyone likes raptors.
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2018-01-02, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Putting ferocious carnivorous turkeys in the petting zoo sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
And again, the skeleton that Dr. Grant was digging up at the beginning of the first movie, the one that's about the size of the raptors in the park, is explicitly stated to be a velociraptor mongolious.
Conclusion, in-universe, velociraptor mongolious did, in fact, look like that.Last edited by Rater202; 2018-01-02 at 05:47 PM.
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2018-01-02, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
They've never made any real dinosaurs, though. They can't. They don't have enough dino DNA, so they always have to alter it in order to make the creatures, so they will never have a "real" velociraptor. The original book even subtly foreshadows this with Hammond's travelling elephant the size of a house cat, which was pygmy elephant with dwarfism but was shown as a triumph of genetic engineering in order to get investors to cough up more money. Also, the flea circus story that's in both the novel and the first movie corroborate this; Hammond shows people not what is, but what they want to see. Hammond is, at his heart, a huckster. Even with him being gone, the core of Jurassic Park is the same, and they double down on this when they make the Indominous Rex. It is no less a creation of theirs than the rest of the dinosaurs they make, they're just no longer advertising it as such.
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2018-01-02, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
There's a persistent theory based on the half-life of blood molecules being nowhere near hundreds of millions of years that there is no actual dinosaur DNA in the creations and they're just experimenting with the genes of extant avians, reptiles, and amphibions to create reasonable facimiles of the dinosaurs.
I mean, it's not canon, but it would explain a lot.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2018-01-02, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
This was my major issue with the first Transformer movie. I kept thinking "Why are we spending time with these boring humans, when we can have giant robots fighting each other."
Jurassic World was an entertaining watch while folding clothes, which is the baseline for a summer blockbuster I don't bother to leave the house to see.Last edited by Joran; 2018-01-02 at 06:14 PM.
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2018-01-03, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
JW failed because of the humans. A literal 2 hours of dinos screeching and fighting would not have been a good movie - we like to say it would, but it wouldn't. What they needed was likeable, interesting humans with a semi-interesting plot, and failing that the protagonist humans should have all been brutally and bloodily eaten at the end as an apology for their existence.
This new one doesn't promise to be any better.
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2018-01-03, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
In Transformers the robots can speak, they can emote, they can engage in all sorts of juvenile-but-recognizably-human Michael Bay antics like having Bumblebee piss on a guy. The are not humans but they are characters. It's the same principle as having animated films with talking animals. There is, in fact, a Dinosaur movie of this nature - Dinosaur made in 2000 by Disney. That was actually a highly successful film and with current technological improvements (see The Jungle Book and the upcoming Lion King remake) I can certainly see Disney going back to that well.
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2018-01-03, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
The dinosaurs are characters Jurassic Park, too. The Realtors are the villains, constantly harassing and threatening the main characters, and the T-Rex turns from villain to hero at the end, when it saves Grant & Co. from the raptors. In the book, the T-Rex is much more if an antagonist, much more similar to a terrifying murderer relentlessly stalking the main characters.
The movie T-Rex very un-subtly reprises it's "hero" status in JW.Last edited by Peelee; 2018-01-03 at 08:46 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2018-01-03, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2018-01-03, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-03, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2018-01-04, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Possibly, possibly, but that still wouldn't make it a good movie. 'nicer than Stalin' isn't a high bar to clear, after all and 'dinos are better than the humans in JW' is true but doesn't say much about how fun they are to watch doing nothing but fighting and screeching.
I feel that a movie has to have some characters of interest to move the film along. Nothing but action is still going to get old very quickly, especially if you aren't invested in the outcome to any particular degree.
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2018-01-04, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-01-05, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
On the one hand, I was a little disappointed to see that the advances of understanding of dinosaur biology in the intervening 20-25 years hadn't found their way substantively into Jurassic World. But that is also trivially justified because:
They made at least an attempt at accuracy in the first movie.
Everything that's going on in-universe is built on that science and those expectations from the first movie. The assumption of the theme park owners is that people want to see dinosaurs that resemble the dinosaurs they're familiar with - and dinosaurs in-universe are now a fact of contemporary life, not limited to fossils and imagination - and so that's what they design.
And that bit about entertainment suspending the nitpickery? That's also exactly the thing that's going on in-universe too. Jurassic Park is a theme park. Its intention is to impress its visitors with spectacle, not with scientific accuracy. Dr. Wu even spells this out in Jurassic World when he points out to the owner that the point was never to create scientifically accurate dinosaurs and if they had done, many of the dinosaurs would look very different. The point was to entertain the public.
(And if we know one thing about the public, it's that they won't let even fairly major scientific/historical inaccuracies get in the way of a good time.)
Similarly the velociraptor thing can be explained away using in-universe justifications. When JP1 was created, they called them velociraptors because they were adhering to a taxonomy that is no longer accepted. They've kept the name even though they know it's not correct because that's what people expect to see. We know from Jurassic World that they're not averse to just making species names up based on what sounds cool.
There are probably people in the JP universe who sniff at the shoddy excuses for dinosaurs which don't match scientific understanding just as there are people who do so at the films. But the park - like the films - isn't for them.
You can continue to complain about inaccuracies if you like, and there is merit in doing so. People should know the truth. But that shouldn't get in the way of enjoying the films, because those inaccuracies are all fully justified within its own continuity - without even having to import stuff like "in this universe, up is down, etc." You can hate the films because they're terrible films - which at least two of them are - but dwelling on the point about accuracy of dinosaur portrayal is missing the point hard.
What I am less forgiving of is any other media property depicting velociraptors in the same way that Jurassic Park does/did. JP got it wrong in the early 90s, but at least they have the excuse of consistency. Everyone else should know better.
Having said all of that, if I remember rightly, at least some of the raptors in Jurassic Park 3 did have at least some feathers. Which again goes some way to demonstrating that quality of film is in no way related to scientific accuracy of the creatures portrayed.Last edited by Aedilred; 2018-01-05 at 02:20 PM.
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2018-01-08, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom
The biggest problem I see with this movie? I've seen it. It's one of those trailers where there appear to be no surprises left in store in the movie. Why spend $10 or so to see it when I already have all the relevant points from the trailer....
No shame there. I cried when I saw it as a 30 year old (48 now). And I made sure to by it on blu-ray. It's an awesome movie!"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
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