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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Wonton's Avatar

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    Default Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    In my Pathfinder game, my party consists of a Samurai, a Rogue, a Barbarian, a Monk, and a Witch (a Necromancer variant who mainly focuses on undead minions). So basically, 4.5 / 5 of them are melee, with the occasional spell or hex thrown out by the Witch. They are currently level 5.

    My question is, given this party's OBVIOUS weakness against things like flying/ranged enemies, to what extent is it okay to use enemies like that in my game?

    Obviously, there's a spectrum - on one end, you can be a **** and constantly screw over your players with enemies that counter them. And when they TPK against that Sorcerer with Fly and Protection from Arrows, you say "sorry, should have built your party better".

    On the other end, you can say "I don't want to be unfair" and avoid enemies like that entirely. At which point the game becomes too easy unless you literally give every enemy ridiculous AC/HP/DR to survive the all-melee onslaught.

    Clearly, the ideal answer lies somewhere inbetween. But it's still a challenging question, because given their extreme melee focus, a level 3 Ranger with a Wand of Fly would probably be a greater threat for them than CR 8 Dire Tiger.

    The reason I ask is because I'm running an adventure path, and they've recently reached the end of a section of wilderness (where they were fighting beasts, something they're VERY good at). But coming up, there will some very difficult encounters for them. A Necromancer who can Fly, a Shadow Demon (Invisibility+Flying), and an Enchanter with Spider Climb.

    So how would you handle a party like this?
    Last edited by Wonton; 2017-06-18 at 10:20 PM.
    Rules that supersede Rule 0:

    Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.

    Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Make it believable. If a place will having flying enemies, let them have flying enemies. If the party scouts or gets intel, let them find out about that.

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    Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    The answer to that question depends on you and your players. To wit:

    Will they enjoy what's about to happen? There are two sides:

    If your players are all about realism, then getting their butts kicked by a flying opponent may be the memorable and enjoyable gaming experience that they talk about for years to come.

    If your players are easily frustrated by not being the victors, then you have a problem brewing that may end your gaming group.


    The flying necromancer can simply hover over them and say, "You can't hurt me, can you? Why should I even bother to kill you?"

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I would suggest hitting them with some relatively weak enemies who have skills and abilities that counter them. They should realize their weakness and start to come up with strategies to counter those issues. In an extended campaign, the enemies SHOULD start to tailor their tactics against the party, and the characters should have to adapt in turn.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I would "punish" the players insomuch as it would make sense. Have the party constantly get pestered by every flying enemy in the book? No. But if the party is going to an area known to have harpies or manticore or... Then that is their fault.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Give a fair mix of encounters / provide encounters that make sense for the area/enemy, without taking their choices into account. That's the fairest way to do it, though I know you end up feeling kind of bad. So you can skew things a bit in their favor, but they should definitely still have to face encounters they're not well equipped to handle. Might convince them to diversify their capabilities, which is what you really want out of this (certainly don't penalize someone wanting to retrain for the sake of party balance by making it cost money or xp or whatever...I never make retraining cost anything.)

    Obviously, enemies who've fought them before and survived, or who have studied them, would know of the imbalance and seek to exploit it as best they can.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Variety.
    Toss one or two flying enemies at them in a believable fashion. Have them be attacked by something flying but not too strong so they see their weak spot.
    Possibly let them gain flying themselves soon after... reanimated flying beast to start.

    And don't think about punishing the party
    It's not a helpful mindset.
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2017-06-19 at 12:58 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    They've got a necromancer on their side, throw some big dumb flier brute they can animate as a zombie so your melee guys can play air cavalry.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Don't punish your players.

    But don't coddle them either. You don't need simply flying enemies to present a challenge to a range-lacking party, play with height-advantage and various other range challenges. I mean, your players should at the very least have a ranged alternative, but also offer them to be inventive ways to getting into melee with the ranged characters to end them. Don't just put everything within easy reach. Put the archers in guard towers that they have to spend several rounds to chop down as the ladders have been withdrawn up into the tower, or allow them to haphazardly climb the outside of the tower to get up, but they become an easy target to other enemies doing so.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I can only assume they play the characters they chose because they think they are fun, and as such are engaged. I'm going to further assume you want to keep them enjoying the sessions, not "win".

    There's a couple of ways to go about their imbalance. They want to play melee-centric, great. Give them nasty melee challenges in the main, and use ranged variations on occasion to create tension. Opponents that exploit gaping holes with ill will make great villains. Again, the DM Golden Rule comes into play: you always have more resources than the players, but also more responsibility. No matter their strengths, you can always challenge them, strength on strength. If that's what they like and gets them engaged, awesome.

    The above is a meta approach, aware that it's a game. A setting that's not self-aware would of course not generously play into their forte, and brutalize them. That's an approach that desires to inject realism into the setting. I've used it before, in fact settings like Dark Sun make that a central theme. It can be appropriate and add to the mood and tension of games, but often players don't find it fun. No matter how even-handed you go about it, there's always the chance they will think you're a DM "out to get them," and you can lose the benefit of the doubt over the course of a campaign.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Never punish


    But don't coddle them like a bunch of kids if they knew better. 3 of 4 melee are proficient in ranged weapons just of the top of my head (i just have my doubts about the monk, not all monk weapons behave the same) so ranged and flight battles shouldn't be an impossible barrier. Getting all five into the sky at once might be impossible without preperation.


    I, personally, would save flying magical (thus ranged) enemies for special occastions but I would also keep the world making sense. As much as they ever do.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I run organic worlds that do not revolve around PCs. Thus it is simply a factor of where they go and whom they antagonize.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    Make it believable. If a place will having flying enemies, let them have flying enemies. If the party scouts or gets intel, let them find out about that.
    That advice basically amounts to "don't change anything", which will result in laughably easy melee encounters, and incredibly frustrating/borderline impossible encounters with ranged spellcasters. Not a good gaming experience, IMO. I'd prefer to sacrifice some realism for balance/fun. I agree that rewarding scouting is a good idea, though. Problem is, the Barbarian and Samurai characters (not the players, but the characters they've made) are very brash and... stupid, and prefer charging into battle over scouting. *

    * (I know at this point you're wondering "how the hell would adventurers that dumb expect to survive for any length of time" and I completely agree with you. But they have fun playing them. Hence this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coventry View Post
    The answer to that question depends on you and your players. To wit:

    Will they enjoy what's about to happen? There are two sides:

    If your players are all about realism, then getting their butts kicked by a flying opponent may be the memorable and enjoyable gaming experience that they talk about for years to come.

    If your players are easily frustrated by not being the victors, then you have a problem brewing that may end your gaming group.


    The flying necromancer can simply hover over them and say, "You can't hurt me, can you? Why should I even bother to kill you?"
    To have fresh new corpses to raise, of course. Why wouldn't a Necromancer kill 5 people (loaded with gold and magic items) that can't hit him with their pointy swords?

    As for my players, they certainly aren't the type to run out of the room crying when their character dies in battle (had that happen before...... it was extremely awkward), but they also can get upset if they feel a fight is too unfair, and can sometimes slip into the sulking "the DM is trying to kill us" mindset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    They've got a necromancer on their side, throw some big dumb flier brute they can animate as a zombie so your melee guys can play air cavalry.
    That's actually a great idea. I might throw a Dimorphodon skeleton their way or something, so they have something that can fly and maybe even carry a small rider.

    Along the same veins, some magic item drops to help them fight at range might not be a bad idea. They'd probably never buy a +1 Composite Bow, +1 Returning Shortspear, or Javelin of Lightning, but if they find one, they might use it rather than vendoring it for 1/2 price.
    Rules that supersede Rule 0:

    Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.

    Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Never forget terrain advantages.

    Always leave the party a backup plan in case things go awry. I mean, it's a fantastic and common trope in fantasy that the enemy swoops down in a flying ambush, so the heroes fight for a short time while looking for cover. If they can escape to a small, enclosed space, the enemy will have to abandon their advantage to be able to continue the pursuit.

    Not every encounter has to be defeated by killing the monsters. Sometimes just surviving the ordeal is worth the same experience.

    It can be difficult outrunning a flying creature, so pick poor or clumsy maneuverability for this trope. That gives the players a moment to take action while the enemy flies off to make a wide turn to come around again.
    Last edited by Pleh; 2017-06-19 at 04:12 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonton View Post
    So how would you handle a party like this?
    That will depend on what talk you had before starting the AP. If it´s clear that you stick to the rules and use the AP as written, then it´s a cue for the players to build a well-rounded party or face problems from time to time (or compensate using equipment).

    All in all, I´d give them a warning shot that they have to come up with some working tactics to handle that kind of stuff in the near future and be done with that.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    It's a long read, but I believe relevant,

    Needless to say, that party in particular lost 2 important NPCs with the PC monk blinded by Glitterdust and knowingly running through a Spirit Wall after already being hit once and gaining a negative level.

    He now lies unconscious and with 2 negative levels past the wall and alone, since the rest of the party decided at around round 14 to flee (mind you that the Necromancer in question popped up at round 3 and had been spell slinging every round- these guys just took it and never opted to escape or, in the beguiler's case, dispel the guy so as to make him an easier target).

    So is it good to punish PCs? It depends: If you hand out the info and tools beforehand and they choose to ignore them, then the gloves come off and all you can do as a DM is hope that they use common sense to retreat.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    d6 Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    You have identified a problem. Now as a DM solve it for your players.

    Boots of flight reward

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    Scrolls or potions of fly found in treasure

    Found in a treasure maybe a mission where they get one of these as a reward.
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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Additionally flying mounts would work. Zombie is a good answer (that has been mentioned) but some mythical creatures also give prices on eggs and combat trained versions (griffins, hippogriffs and dire eagles comes to mind). 3.5 arms and armor also have flying mounts.

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    Spamalot in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    You don't have to go straight to divebombing them with dragons and storm elementals. You can slowly introduce them to the idea that they need to diversify their tactics and worry about looking up as they get higher in levels. Throw a couple of winged enemies into an encounter, like adding some goblin gliders or a couple of Strix/Raptorans to the wandering bandits. Or put some archers up on a ridge or in the treetops. Basically, if at the end of the fight one of your players says "that would've been a lot easier if we could fly" then you've done your job as far as making the game world more realistic but still fair.

    You can include a scroll of fly in some loot as a not-so-subtle hint to the party witch, and some magic arrows as a not-so-subtle hint for everyone else.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I try to not punish the party unless they truly deserve it. If you are on an escort mission and decide its simply easier to kill the subject and deliver a corpse, then consequences will exist. However, I'm not going to punish a party that wants to play simple, non magic using characters.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    They need to rescue a grateful wizard or cleric, or find the right hoard of magic items, very soon.

    [And if they rescue a grateful wizard or cleric, it should be one who specialized in buffing spells, so the people doing the major fighting will still be the PCs. Note that such a wizard is not very powerful alone, and therefore easily captured before the party arrives. She might even still have buffing spells memorized, and able to help them when they arrive. Those spells are kind of useless for a wizard alone, but great when the fighters show up.]
    Last edited by Jay R; 2017-06-19 at 11:52 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonton View Post
    That advice basically amounts to "don't change anything", which will result in laughably easy melee encounters, and incredibly frustrating/borderline impossible encounters with ranged spellcasters. Not a good gaming experience, IMO. I'd prefer to sacrifice some realism for balance/fun. I agree that rewarding scouting is a good idea, though. Problem is, the Barbarian and Samurai characters (not the players, but the characters they've made) are very brash and... stupid, and prefer charging into battle over scouting. *
    So? The party has strengths and weaknesses. They dominate melee encounters and suffer in ranged encounters and encounters they aren't prepared for. Are you going to make every encounter a melee encounter?

    If my party consists of five fighters with weapon focus(greatsword), weapon specialization(greatsword) and 18 str/10 dex on each character, that doesn't delete flying enemies from my setting. It doesn't delete wizards from the setting(although the wizards will probably have magic missile instead of sleep and grease). It doesn't delete traps from the setting, although there's a strong argument traps are dumb to begin with. And there's still going to be flying wyverns on wyvern mountain. Now if any of them is a little bright they'll stick to adventuring in places where flight isn't a major advantage, like crypts and caves and the like.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonton View Post
    That advice basically amounts to "don't change anything", which will result in laughably easy melee encounters, and incredibly frustrating/borderline impossible encounters with ranged spellcasters. Not a good gaming experience, IMO. I'd prefer to sacrifice some realism for balance/fun. I agree that rewarding scouting is a good idea, though. Problem is, the Barbarian and Samurai characters (not the players, but the characters they've made) are very brash and... stupid, and prefer charging into battle over scouting. *

    * (I know at this point you're wondering "how the hell would adventurers that dumb expect to survive for any length of time" and I completely agree with you. But they have fun playing them. Hence this thread.


    If they don't get info, that's ok. Eventually all adventurers, soldiers, generals, etc learn that they need to look before they leap. It's a character growth thing. With a little intel, it's not super hard to figure out ways for even melee focused folks to deal with flyers for relatively cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonton View Post

    So how would you handle a party like this?
    Throw whatever at them and see what happens.

    I'd never metagame and ''punish'' the players, but I'm also not going to ''cakewalk'' things.

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    The goal of the game is to have fun. If you're throwing encounters at them with the express purpose of getting them TPK'd you're generally doing it wrong.

    It's not hard for the DM to kill all the players, you're not bound to any limits, you can easily kill any party.

    You can use their weaknesses to challenge them, they might even start trying to fill in those holes.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I'd like to point out your party has a weakness to the standard 10'x10' hallway. If there are enemies in only one direction a full half of your party is doing nothing.
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    I'd like to point out your party has a weakness to the standard 10'x10' hallway. If there are enemies in only one direction a full half of your party is doing nothing.
    You could complement that with reach weapons.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    Drop an Elvencraft Hank's Energy Bow or gloves of the dagger/throwing axe, with axes that explode like flasks of acid
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    What do you mean by punish?
    Do my players sometimes encounter challenges they have a hard time defeating because of the sort of characters they do not have? Yes.
    Do I go "haha, I see you have no [insert whatever], so I shall send an inordinate amount of challenges you are weak against. That'll teach you to not create 'imbalanced' parties!"? No

    All GMing is throwing encounters at your players that you feel they should be able to handle in some way (even if it is running away). The exact degree of this varies from GM to GM and how much of a challenge they like varies from player to player.
    In general, if something exists in a game world there are chances that PCs in my games will come across them. How they handle it is up to them. OTOH, if the players all make a certain type of character it obviously means they want to play that sort of character so it's worth considering being a little nice and throwing the kind of challenges they like their way a bit more often than you otherwise would have. It is very frustrating to make a character who never gets to shine because the GM is always throwing encounters at you where your choices are rendered irrelevant.

    I generally feel a GM should be honest and upfront about the sort of things a party is likely to encounter in a game. "you don't know what you will meet, so a wider variety of abilities may be useful" is a valid warning, but letting players make characters that will definitely not fit the game is just unfair.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Do you punish an unbalanced party?

    I'm just gonna suggest talking to the players and briefing them on what you see as their tactical deficiencies. Once everybody has the same info, see what happens.

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