Wait Wait Wait

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Shivering touch deals Dexterity damage, enough to take a dragon down to 0 Dexterity and thereby paralyze them. You recommend making the dragon capable of taking one of these, crushing the wizard, and then continuing on. It is physically impossible short of failing to pass spell resistance for a dragon to survive a maximized shivering touch spell.

So, in essence, what you are advocating is in fact breaking the rules.

Fax, I'm going to say this once and once only:

1. Dragons can sense anyone who enters their lair, unless they're little ones. I doubt we're talking about a little one.

2. Dragons have a stride measured by the size of their BIG FREAKING LEGS.

3. Crushing Damage is not an attack roll. You seem to think it is.

4. Any DM who doesn't have the capacity of thought to portray Dragons in a manner that allows them to WALK or STAND or RUN or STEP ASIDE while some worthless magically imbued peon of a hors’dourves walk up to them without taking any actions needs to be immediately stripped of their DMG and thrown out onto the street by the local Dungeon Masters guild.


I did not once ever suggest to break the rules.

[Overlard]

I didn't suggest breaking any rules. If you knew how to play your monsters, you'd know that.

Do you know what I find amazing, sweetie?

That people on this board, and around the world managed to enjoy D&D before you came along and told us we were all doing it wrong. Somehow we deluded ourselves into believing that we were partaking in a group activity that we all enjoy without your decrees on how to roleplay, DM and live our lives.

Before you came along honey, my life... well... I don't think I could call it living. It was a mere shadow of an existence. I knew something was missing, that there was a gaping maw in my soul. I tried filling it with religion, women, drugs and partying, but none of them fit right. And now, with your hard & fast rules on what the right D&D experience is, your directions on how to play monsters right, your instructions on how to punish players, and what to punish them for, I finally feel that that void has been filled.

If only you had come along earlier with your condescending attitude, repetitive exclamations and tiresome attitude, then my life could have been complete years ago.

Thank you darling, thank you.

[horseboy]

Have you read the psionic rules for 3.5? No really? Be honest? Please?
A full psion is about the same power as say... a sorcerer.
There are ways to abuse psionics (of Smack), but... there are ways to abuse nearly everything.

2.0/2.5 Psionics? Ugh, no thanks. There's your overpowered psionics.

Or the appendix that was 1st edition psionics. "My attack type A can only be stopped by defense types E, C and on Tuesdays, Q! Oh my brain. I think that's why my group never encountered mind flayers, even in Spelljammer.

=edit=
How I handle the issue of wizards in comparison to the rest of the party in overshadowment:
I don't allow them. Voila. No risk taken.

I play game systems that have a better balanced magic system.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Do you know what I find amazing, sweetie?

That people on this board, and around the world managed to enjoy D&D before you came along and told us we were all doing it wrong. Somehow we deluded ourselves into believing that we were partaking in a group activity that we all enjoy without your decrees on how to roleplay, DM and live our lives.

Before you came along honey, my life... well... I don't think I could call it living. It was a mere shadow of an existence. I knew something was missing, that there was a gaping maw in my soul. I tried filling it with religion, women, drugs and partying, but none of them fit right. And now, with your hard & fast rules on what the right D&D experience is, your directions on how to play monsters right, your instructions on how to punish players, and what to punish them for, I finally feel that that void has been filled.

If only you had come along earlier with your condescending attitude, repetitive exclamations and tiresome attitude, then my life could have been complete years ago.

Thank you darling, thank you.

I sincerely hope you're a woman :O if not then, I think I just failed my Horror Check.


But if you are, then I just have one thing to say:

I wuv you too sweetie

lol

[Reinboom]

Do you know what I find amazing, sweetie?

Yes?
..
uh..
oh.. oh other sweetie.

=edit=
Overlard. You're awesome.
That is all.

Fax, I'm going to say this once and once only:

1. Dragons can sense anyone who enters their lair, unless they're little ones. I doubt we're talking about a little one.

2. Dragons have a stride measured by the size of their BIG FREAKING LEGS.

3. Crushing Damage is not an attack roll. You seem to think it is.

4. Any DM who doesn't have the capacity of thought to portray Dragons in a manner that allows them to WALK or STAND or RUN or STEP ASIDE while some worthless magically imbued peon of a hors’dourves walk up to them without taking any actions needs to be immediately stripped of their DMG and thrown out onto the street by the local Dungeon Masters guild.


I did not once ever suggest to break the rules.

Where does it say that a dragon can sense everything in their lairs?
Most dragons of this ECL are... huge?
And there isn't just one 'puny' thing running up to them.

[Overlard]

I sincerely hope you're a woman :O if not then, I think I just failed my Horror Check.


But if you are, then I just have one thing to say:

I wuv you too sweetie

lol

Sorry sweetcheeks, you failed your horror check.

[Kyace]

If the player is not a munchkin and is NOT abusing his power, then it's 100% DM fault for not making balanced encounters for all the classes.

This assumes all classes start off balanced, that is a false statement and ergo, any dependent statements are not necessarily true.

Fear is what keeps you from cossing the middle of an intersection without looking both ways.

Fear is what keeps you from sticking your hand into the fire.

Fear is what keeps you alive.

Players forget to properly play fear. They think because it's just a piece of paper, there is no fear. They need to be reminded that they fear for the wellbeing of their character. By utilizing fear correctly, you can give your players a rush of enjoyment and satisfaction. It's clear however, you've never experienced this.

You imply that by not making the players fear, the DM is failing to provide an enjoyable and satifying game, this again is a false statement. DMing a frightening game is a valid style but not necessarily the only valid style.

You just called me a tyrant for using fear in my campaigns, and then brag about "cherry picking" feats and forcing your players to follow a communistic chain of approvals to make their characters.

"Cherry picking" comes from the practice of picking ripe cherries off of a tree and leaving the unripe ones to ripen and throwing the rotten ones away. I fail to see how limiting players to a list of balanced/flavor fitting feats is tyranny. "Communistic" means relating to communism, there are no proven political connection between communism and tyranny that doesn't exist for other types of government. Politically linked styles of control that are linked to tyranny include ruling by fear, cruelty and oppression.

It isn't a sad state of affairs. That's how this game was handled from its very inception. If you want to be coddled and want to treat your players the same way, then that's your choice. But it's a choice that does break from even the very origin of Dungeons and Dragons, and in fact, all board games ever produced from ages 8 and up.

You have your own style of DMing that relies on fear to keep your players in line. Some DMs instead keep their power by consent due to their players honestly enjoying the game. I await the day when your downtrodden players figure out that they don't have to tow your line of fear and "What I say goes" and find a DM where they can play other styles.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Where does it say that a dragon can sense everything in their lairs?
Most dragons of this ECL are... huge?
And there isn't just one 'puny' thing running up to them.

Any DM who doesn't design a Dragon who has protective wards or watchdog spells on his/her lair needs to have their badge taken from them and tossed to the side.

Wasn't council of wyrms translated into 3e? I seem to remember reading the 3e version at the game store.

They go into the rules of dragons and their lairs. I suggest people read it for more understanding.

When I read dragon descriptions in the 3e books they were not weak, and they seemed to be straight ports over to 3e from 2nd edition. They do have equiv spell abilities and do use magical items in their freakin hoard for the same reasons.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Sorry sweetcheeks, you failed your horror check.

ARRGGG MY EYES MY EYES!

lol

You have your own style of DMing that relies on fear to keep your players in line. Some DMs instead keep their power by consent due to their players honestly enjoying the game. I await the day when your downtrodden players figure out that they don't have to tow your line of fear and "What I say goes" and find a DM where they can play other styles.

You do not grasp what I said about fear, because I do not play by the "What I say goes" method.

Edit: well, let me put it this way.. What a DM does say goes. But, I allow my players to protest, and talk and discuss and they even get backsies if they realize that a rule is going to cause a "problem" with their character.

[Goumindong]

Fax, I'm going to say this once and once only:

1. Dragons can sense anyone who enters their lair, unless they're little ones. I doubt we're talking about a little one.

2. Dragons have a stride measured by the size of their BIG FREAKING LEGS.

3. Crushing Damage is not an attack roll. You seem to think it is.

4. Any DM who doesn't have the capacity of thought to portray Dragons in a manner that allows them to WALK or STAND or RUN or STEP ASIDE while some worthless magically imbued peon of a hors’dourves walk up to them without taking any actions needs to be immediately stripped of their DMG and thrown out onto the street by the local Dungeon Masters guild.


I did not once ever suggest to break the rules.

Have you ever played this game ever?

Wizards can fly just as fast as dragons.

Dragons have abysmally low touch ACs.

Dragons can pretty much only ever have one AoO which means a simple bit of teamwork means that any dragon with roughly 60-120 feet[fly speed]. That means that a wizard able to cast a maxmized shivering touch and overcome a dragons touch AC can kill any dragon that gets within 60-120 feet.

That isnt even dealing with things like quickened dimension door, or readied actions, or the various other things that a wizard can do to get a touch attack off.

[UserClone]

Fax, I'm going to say this once and once only:

1. Dragons can sense anyone who enters their lair, unless they're little ones. I doubt we're talking about a little one.

This seems to be a houserule, because I found no mention of it in my 3.5 MM. Could you point me to this entry?

2. Dragons have a stride measured by the size of their BIG FREAKING LEGS.

No, dragons have a movement speed, measured in feet, based on their size category.

3. Crushing Damage is not an attack roll. You seem to think it is.

There is almost NO physical damage in D&D which doesn't require an attack roll, and most of that is environmental damage. Again, if you could point this out in a 3.5 rulebook, please. It would help your argument.

4. Any DM who doesn't have the capacity of thought to portray Dragons in a manner that allows them to WALK or STAND or RUN or STEP ASIDE while some worthless magically imbued peon of a hors’dourves walk up to them without taking any actions needs to be immediately stripped of their DMG and thrown out onto the street by the local Dungeon Masters guild.

Adding a grin does not make this acceptable decorum, at least in my opinion. Let's try to keep it civil.

I did not once ever suggest to break the rules.

Um...I'll assume you forgot the smallwink at the end of that. Note numbered quotes 1, 2, and 3. Sweetheart.

[Ozymandias]

ARRGGG MY EYES MY EYES!

lol

Yeah, affection between men is really disgusting. Hilarious.

You do not grasp what I said about fear, because I do not play by the "What I say goes" method.

I think the whole "fear" thing is based on the fact that your approach to balancing overpowered classes is by punishing player's from using too powerful abilities, thus causing them to avoid using said abilities. It works, I guess, but I'd much prefer Fax's method.

[Kyace]

Fax, I'm going to say this once and once only:

1. Dragons can sense anyone who enters their lair, unless they're little ones. I doubt we're talking about a little one.

2. Dragons have a stride measured by the size of their BIG FREAKING LEGS.

3. Crushing Damage is not an attack roll. You seem to think it is.

4. Any DM who doesn't have the capacity of thought to portray Dragons in a manner that allows them to WALK or STAND or RUN or STEP ASIDE while some worthless magically imbued peon of a hors’dourves walk up to them without taking any actions needs to be immediately stripped of their DMG and thrown out onto the street by the local Dungeon Masters guild.


I did not once ever suggest to break the rules.

Dragons have a move speed of 60'. The fly spell, a 3rd level spell, gives nearly anyone a fly speed of 60' with man of good. Unless the dragon can kill the party in one round, it is likely that they will be hit by a spell from someone. If the spell basically defeats the dragon then I fail to see how the DM has failed.

[Fax Celestis]

The wizard doesn't even need to be near the dragon with things like spectral hand or Reach Spell.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Have you ever played this game ever?

I have and I've met players who thought they could outwit me and ate for breakfast using standard rules.

Wizards can fly just as fast as dragons.

Dispell magic -- OOPS SORRY SQUISH

Dragons have abysmally low touch ACs.

IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.

Touch is at most 3 feet. A dragon can just walk faster than a wizard on foot. And a wizard using a fly or haste spell is asking for a magically empowered dragon to rip them into small chewey bits and pieces..

Dragons can pretty much only ever have one AoO which means a simple bit of teamwork means that any dragon with roughly 60-120 feet[fly speed]. That means that a wizard able to cast a maxmized shivering touch and overcome a dragons touch AC can kill any dragon that gets within 60-120 feet.

That isnt even dealing with things like quickened dimension door, or readied actions, or the various other things that a wizard can do to get a touch attack off.

Oh, please.

LOL

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

[Kyace]

This seems to be a houserule, because I found no mention of it in my 3.5 MM. Could you point me to this entry?

No, dragons have a movement speed, measured in feet, based on their size category.

There is almost NO physical damage in D&D which doesn't require an attack roll, and most of that is environmental damage. Again, if you could point this out in a 3.5 rulebook, please. It would help your argument.

Adding a grin does not make this acceptable decorum, at least in my opinion. Let's try to keep it civil.
Um...I'll assume you forgot the smallwink at the end of that. Note numbered quotes 1, 2, and 3. Sweetheart.

Dragons have blindsense 60'. Decent but not "Lair radar" it was implied to be. Heck, it isn't even blindsight.

They also have a crush attack that is reflex or be pinned, basically. A pinning dragon, FYI, loses its Dex bonus to attacks from outside the grapple. Smart dragon...

[UserClone]

Any DM who doesn't design a Dragon who has protective wards or watchdog spells on his/her lair needs to have their badge taken from them and tossed to the side.

Again, this is one of those all-or-nothing statements that, while it makes your posts amusing to read, it is probably laughter you don't want, as the amusement stems from pity.

I suggest people read it for more understanding

I'm going to put this as nicely as I am able. That is the single most ignorant thing I have ever seen anyone post on GiTP forums.

[Thinker]

Oh, please.

LOL

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

LOL

People who play with the rules, what are they thinking? I mean if you just arbitrarily change the rules midgame everyone has fun by failing to beat the DM and his competitive playing style! I can see what I've done wrong!

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, please.

LOL

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

Not really. Maximized reaching shivering touch: 18 Dexterity damage to one target within 30'. Invisibility, teleport or dimension door to get within range (or, if you feel like horseback, try phantom steed. 100'+ fly speed? Yes please). Dragon is now paralyzed. Kill immobile dragon.

[Reinboom]

Dispell magic -- OOPS SORRY SQUISH

Ring of Counterspells - Dispel Magic. Common, core, item that many wizards have for a reason.
Then there's also the issue of --- who goes first? Overland flight is nearly always on. You dispel it - you've wasted your round. The wizard is still doing an awesome job in this situation. You can't dispel and then squish. Sorry. Reread the rules.

IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.

Touch is at most 3 feet. A dragon can just walk faster than a wizard on foot. And a wizard using a fly or haste spell is asking for a magically empowered dragon to rip them into small chewey bits and pieces..

5 Feet*
Read the rules, for your own sake. Please.
And the dragon has more than just the wizard to worry about. The dimension door, teleporting, shivering touching, etc. etc. blah blah blah wizard. The wizard is just the primary power house.
Dragon approaches in order to 'chew'. Dragon is dead.

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure.

Not in everyone's campaign. Your way of playing isn't the end all be all.
Sure, they have access to their hoard. Fine. Even a good selection won't surpass a wizard's set up - unless you're exceeding the WBL recommendations. Mind: You better be fair with this.

Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

Those kingdoms clearly didn't have wizards.

[cupkeyk]

Dragons have horible caster level check modifiers and is unlikely to dispel the fly.

i see no reason why the dragon wouldn't cast Alarm on his lair though. Or Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. That magic mouth spell. But well, its just another dungeon crawl then.

[Kyace]

I have and I've met players who thought they could outwit me and ate for breakfast using standard rules.



Dispell magic -- OOPS SORRY SQUISH

If the best thing a dragon has to do is a targeted dispel on basically the safest spell in the SRD to have dispelled on you, then they arn't very smart.

IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.

Touch is at most 3 feet. A dragon can just walk faster than a wizard on foot. And a wizard using a fly or haste spell is asking for a magically empowered dragon to rip them into small chewey bits and pieces..

*cough*Touch for a small creature is 5' by RAW. You can get higher with larger creatures, spells, having your familiar deliver the spell, reach metamagic, or countless other ways.

Oh, please.

LOL

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

You seem to be confusing fluff with crunch. Very few dragons can actually defeat a kingdom's army of warriors due the simple fact that enough will roll 20 on the attack rolls. An adult black dragon has roughly 200 HP. Thus, it only requires 4,000 ranged attack rolls for 200 ensured hits of 1 damage.

[Thinker]

Not really. Maximized reaching shivering touch: 18 Dexterity damage to one target within 30'. Invisibility, teleport or dimension door to get within range (or, if you feel like horseback, try phantom steed. 100'+ fly speed? Yes please). Dragon is now paralyzed. Kill immobile dragon.

You obviously don't understand. The dragon has an anti-phantom steed, anti-invisibility, dimensional locked lair. That's just good DMing. He also is immune to Dex damage. Really when making encounters you should not only try to make them as fear-inspiring as possible, but also make it so the party can't win. I bet you give your players treasure, too...noob! [/sarcasm]

[Overlard]

I have and I've met players who thought they could outwit me and ate for breakfast using standard rules.

Jeez, a battle of wits. Thank god you're proficient at fighting unarmed, hun.

Dispell magic -- OOPS SORRY SQUISH

If the dispel works, then the wizard will start to fall. And cast feather fall.

IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.

Touch is at most 3 feet. A dragon can just walk faster than a wizard on foot. And a wizard using a fly or haste spell is asking for a magically empowered dragon to rip them into small chewey bits and pieces..

Well a quickened dimension door would get them within touch range with enough time for a maximised shivering touch before the dragon can react. Hell, the wizard still has time for a move action to scratch his arse if needed, baby.

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards.

And they lose to wizards with shivering touch. It's the ciiiiiiiiiiiircle of life...

[UserClone]

Jeez, a battle of wits. Thank god you're proficient at fighting unarmed, hun.

Nah. He just takes the -4.

[Goumindong]

I have and I've met players who thought they could outwit me and ate for breakfast using standard rules.

You do realize you then preceeded to list a whole bunch of non-standard rules right?

Dispell magic -- OOPS SORRY SQUISH

Not one single dragon has dispell magic as a SLA. Would you mind telling me how in the world this dragon is getting dispell magic? Does he keep scrolls on him? Scrolls he likley cant hold due to the fact that he has claws and not hands?

IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.

Touch is at most 3 feet. A dragon can just walk faster than a wizard on foot. And a wizard using a fly or haste spell is asking for a magically empowered dragon to rip them into small chewey bits and pieces..

Touch is one square. 5 feet. Or ranged with things like ranged touch.

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards

Really, because by default most dragons cant use ANY treasure. In fact, core dragons have a horde because they are greedy and not because they are defending themselves. The horde also acts as a lure for food.

Lets quote from the SRD
" Although goals and ideals vary among varieties, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magic items as possible. Those with large hoards are loath to leave them for long, venturing out of their lairs only to patrol the immediate area or to get food. For dragons, there is no such thing as enough treasure. It’s pleasing to look at, and they bask in its radiance. Dragons like to make beds of their hoards, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies. By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide. "

Here is a tip, stop digging, you wont make it to China.

[Goumindong]

In our next campaign, my group has already decided: no arcane magic. There will be divine magic and psionics.
But on-topic, if you want to lessen the effect of spellcasters, well, Beholders and other creatures that generate AMF effects are always useful for that.

hah, i did one better.

No prepared full casters and i still get to veto your spell choices.

We have a monk, swashbuckler, duskblade[the spellcaster], and Fighter. They are going to stay in a city most of the time, so its easy to buy resources, but still, its going to be awesome.

[UserClone]

Dragon's don't collect treasure and magic items just to give them to players. They collect items they want and items THEY WILL USE. Only an idiot of a DM would create an encounter where a dragon can knowingly die in one hit, and then give that dragon masses of treasure. Dragons fight off entire kingdoms to keep their hoards

Really, because by default most dragons cant use ANY treasure. In fact, core dragons have a horde because they are greedy and not because they are defending themselves. The horde also acts as a lure for food.

Lets quote from the SRD
" Although goals and ideals vary among varieties, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magic items as possible. Those with large hoards are loath to leave them for long, venturing out of their lairs only to patrol the immediate area or to get food. For dragons, there is no such thing as enough treasure. It’s pleasing to look at, and they bask in its radiance. Dragons like to make beds of their hoards, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies. By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide. "

Interestingly enough, I have an OGL book called Spells & Magic in which dragons collect treasure in order to creat a "trovebond" with it, and power their magic through this supernatural bond with their treasure trove, especially the magic items. The Dragon Mage class from that book was AWESOME fluff-wise, but required too much money to be dumped into the hoard to be worth it mechanically - a pity.

[tyckspoon]

If the best thing a dragon has to do is a targeted dispel on basically the safest spell in the SRD to have dispelled on you, then they arn't very smart.*cough*Touch for a small creature is 5' by RAW. You can get higher with larger creatures, spells, having your familiar deliver the spell, reach metamagic, or countless other ways.You seem to be confusing fluff with crunch. Very few dragons can actually defeat a kingdom's army of warriors due the simple fact that enough will roll 20 on the attack rolls. An adult black dragon has roughly 200 HP. Thus, it only requires 4,000 ranged attack rolls for 200 ensured hits of 1 damage.

Assuming you've managed to gather an army composed primarily of people with 5+ HD. And they've all got magic weapons. A dragon of Young Adult or older has Frightful Presence and DR 5/magic. It can easily scatter an entire army just by flying over it. If you want to try magic, well, congratulations- that's also the age category where they get spell resistance. They're a lot easier to fight if they're any younger than that, but you probably don't need to try and depend on natural 20s to take down a younger one.

[Reinboom]

hah, i did one better.

No prepared full casters and i still get to veto your spell choices.

We have a monk, swashbuckler, duskblade[the spellcaster], and Fighter. They are going to stay in a city most of the time, so its easy to buy resources, but still, its going to be awesome.

I have done exactly the same...
I have a psion, sorcerer, favored soul, ranger, knight, and dragon shaman in my primary group.