General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[Sallera]

Previous threads:
General Anime Discussion (née The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya)
General Anime Discussion A's
General Anime Discussion StrikerS
∀ General Anime Discussion
G General Anime Discussion - Typing FINGER!
Anime/General Discussion: Paradox Thread
Anime 2.0: You Can (Generally) Discuss
General Anime Discussion: The 08th GAD Team
General Anime Discussion: Not An Anime!/⑨ is the strongest!
General Anime Discussion: After War GADam X
General Anime Discussion: Area 11
General Anime/Manga Discussion: Twelve Thread-doms
General Anime/Manga Discussion: Where Are We Golgoing 13?
General Anime/Manga Discussion 13.5: Recap Episode

[Rodin]

To continue on from last thread...

Yeah, GATE was just a big blob of ick and cringe this week (to put it succinctly). The next segment looks like it could be decent, though, so I'll not drop it quite yet.

The whole setup to the last episode was ridiculous. You have a treaty - hold up the treaty for the knights to read. They don't believe you, offer to return to the city and talk to their commander. Don't tell your troops to run away and leave you alone unsupervised with knights of unknown origin who may just kill you or otherwise create an even worse incident than the confrontation already was.

It was all just set up so otaku boy could get beat up by hot chicks and then nursed back to health by more hot chicks. Argh.

I'm in the same boat though - interested in the next segment, so willing to give the show a chance.

Meanwhile, over in this week's School LIVE!

Spoiler: School LIVE!

Show

Wow, that was a tearjerker of an episode. I knew Megu-nee was already dead, but the reveal was none less heartbreaking for that. The montage over the end credits and the way they handled the next episode preview was particularly rough.

This is my surprise show of the season...if you described it to me I would probably never watch it. I still can't really accept that they're supposed to be high schoolers though, and I've got them firmly head-canoned as middle-school kids.

[HamHam]

Agreed that the whole side plot was just done terribly. Like, there is an idea there that might work, but then it got drowned in stupid.

[HMS Invincible]

Agreed that the whole side plot was just done terribly. Like, there is an idea there that might work, but then it got drowned in stupid.

I read ahead, it doesn't get better, so pray for an adaptational improvement. Rumor has it the books were even heavier handed. Has anyone noticed how jarring it is when they talk about being humanitarians and then the next scene is them casually dispatching thousands of people? Luckily, this is the last battle where the enemies conveniently group up en mass for the SDF.

[DoctorFaust]

Has anyone noticed how jarring it is when they talk about being humanitarians and then the next scene is them casually dispatching thousands of people?

Do you mean the thousands of enemies who were attacking a city under the protection of someone who was, at the time, an ally? Or the thousands of enemies that were trying to take their position? Or the thousands of enemies that were trying to kill them right after the JDSF exited the portal? Or was it the thousands of enemies that, out of nowhere, came out of a portal and started killing their citizens? Because in all of those situations, they had pretty damned good reasons for returning fire. So, frankly, no, I don't find it jarring that they responded properly to trying to be killed while involved in a battle, even though it takes place after having conducted a humanitarian mission.

Of course, they might have been referring to this kind of humanitarian.

[kamikasei]

So we gave Gankutsuou a shot.

Unfortunately we probably won't watch anymore of it. At first I was telling myself I should give it a few episodes, but near the end the thought of having to watch more just made me feel anxious and super unhappy, so it's been crossed off. Sorry to those of you who are enjoyed it.

Out of curiosity, why? I had issues with the ending, but enjoyed the rest of the run; it's been a while, but I can't remember anything particularly off-putting in the early part. Was it something in particular, just not clicking with you, or the artstyle?

[Kato]

re Steins;Gate: I absolutely agree with what... someone (sorry) said about how one's perception of it entirely hangs on the characters. But because I love (most of) them I loved the show. I can totally see how people can get annoyed by them, but that's just not the case for me. (For what it's worth, it's played on 80 among imdb Top 250 best rated series, which is about 10th place among anime)

re that other GATE: I kind of agree with that one scene from the most recent episode being... er, out of line. Or unnecessary. But without picking it apart and causing a huge argument, it's not enough to ruin the show for me. Yeah, it can be too light hearted and could possibly use a tone shift towards something a little darker but I still greatly enjoy it.

[ex cathedra]

Oh well, we'll try the next on the list tomorrow (K-on), it looks entertaining so I have hopes for it being one to watch all the way through.

enjoy; k-on is a masterpiece.

[Hazzardevil]

Out of curiosity, why? I had issues with the ending, but enjoyed the rest of the run; it's been a while, but I can't remember anything particularly off-putting in the early part. Was it something in particular, just not clicking with you, or the artstyle?

I got a decent chunk of the way through. I forget why I stopped but I don't remember thinking it was awful. It seemed very slow from what I remember and had a bit too much of it explaining everything at times. I'll probably finish it at some point.

[cobaltstarfire]

Out of curiosity, why? I had issues with the ending, but enjoyed the rest of the run; it's been a while, but I can't remember anything particularly off-putting in the early part. Was it something in particular, just not clicking with you, or the artstyle?

I'm not sure exactly, I think it may have been a combination of things?

Most likely the thing that just made me feel anxious and unhappy was a combination of the overall atmosphere/tone, and the whole scene where they played a "game". That was probably the tipping point for me, I already knew what was likely going to happen from the set up, but it still made me unhappy.

I also just don't really feel intrigued at all, the characters don't have my attention.

The art style I have mixed feelings on, I've used the trick it uses for static drawings before, but the kinds of textures being used just made it really hard to see what was going on sometimes, very distracting, especially since no shading was done to help differentiate the parts of any given figure.

I've mentioned before that I can be a little sensitive to some things, so it's probably just prodding something that triggers unhappy feelings for no readily apparent reason. Setting that aside I think it also just isn't clicking with me, and the art style is just too difficult for me to make visual sense of.

----

Also Sallera, I'm sorry I broke the old threads symmetry. I wouldn't have posted if I had checked the page count and known it had hit 50.

edit: Also I managed to track down the shorts for Monthly Girls Nozaki-kun, and I sure am glad I found them. Now I just have to pine away in hopes of more episodes some day.

[endoperez]

re that other GATE: I kind of agree with that one scene from the most recent episode being... er, out of line. Or unnecessary. But without picking it apart and causing a huge argument, it's not enough to ruin the show for me. Yeah, it can be too light hearted and could possibly use a tone shift towards something a little darker but I still greatly enjoy it.

I'm annoyed because I like the series. But since I am very frustrated by that scene, and I don't like it that much, it feels like in the end the series would end up causing me more aggravation than enjoyment. It's such a pity, I had high hopes for the series and it had some fantastic scenes. :(

I guess I might check out some of the high-note scenes afterwards, even though I've given up on watching the series as a whole.

[DoctorFaust]

I think at this point posting this to the UBW thread would be necro-ing, so I'm going to be posting this here.

Spoiler

Show

Sunny Days ending has been confirmed to be released as a bonus scene on the second set of BDs for UBW.

[Spacewolf]

So what's the difference?

[BWR]

edit: Also I managed to track down the shorts for Monthly Girls Nozaki-kun, and I sure am glad I found them. Now I just have to pine away in hopes of more episodes some day.

You are not alone in this. At least there's still the manga. Which actually has some (albeit minor) development for one or more of the couples.

[Sallera]

So what's the difference?

Spoiler: "Good" Ending

Show

Saber sticks around, basically, and I don't remember if the Clock Tower was mentioned at all. It's silly, out of theme, doesn't make a lot of sense, and basically only exists so ShirouRin can get her harem ending.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Spoiler: "Good" Ending

Show

Saber sticks around, basically, and I don't remember if the Clock Tower was mentioned at all. It's silly, out of theme, doesn't make a lot of sense, and basically only exists so ShirouRin can get her harem ending.

Spoiler: Yeah really

Show

When I read about that ending, I thought "wait, there's an ending where Saber continues to live in modern Japan after the grail war? In Rin's path?!

Of course there's no such ending in Saber's path... *grumble*

[kamikasei]

I think at this point posting this to the UBW thread would be necro-ing, so I'm going to be posting this here.

This is absurd, shameless, pandering fanservice and I heartily appreciate it.

[DoctorFaust]

This is absurd, shameless, pandering fanservice and I heartily appreciate it.

I know, right?

[HamHam]

Welp the newest episode of GATE certainly went blatantly political really fast.

[HMS Invincible]

Welp the newest episode of GATE certainly went blatantly political really fast.

Didn't we say at the start that this has nationalistic/patriotic overtones? Be glad they toned it down in the anime. And that they toned it down in the manga. Just imagine how much worse the original source is after that.

[Kato]

Didn't we say at the start that this has nationalistic/patriotic overtones? Be glad they toned it down in the anime. And that they toned it down in the manga. Just imagine how much worse the original source is after that.

Uh... not to get too political but how is "no, the soldiers did nothing wrong. they did their best to protect the people" nationalistic?
I mean, not that political debate isn't the high point of every entertainment *cough* but I thought the episode was okay.


Also... that show about the Public Morals.... uhm.... nice idea but really, really, really strange execution? Not sure if it's being weird for the sake of being weird of for the sake of bringing their point across. I mean, I can easily see the problem being discussed in a more serious and still entertaining way.

[Ibrinar]

Do you mean the thousands of enemies who were attacking a city under the protection of someone who was, at the time, an ally? Or the thousands of enemies that were trying to take their position? Or the thousands of enemies that were trying to kill them right after the JDSF exited the portal? Or was it the thousands of enemies that, out of nowhere, came out of a portal and started killing their citizens? Because in all of those situations, they had pretty damned good reasons for returning fire. So, frankly, no, I don't find it jarring that they responded properly to trying to be killed while involved in a battle, even though it takes place after having conducted a humanitarian mission.

Of course, they might have been referring to this kind of humanitarian.

Spoiler

Show

Take the attack against the city when they mow down everyone in the inner court. At that point they had demonstrated their superiority, their enemies were without a chance and had seen enough to know they had no chance. They could have commanded them to surrender, maybe the attackers weren't thinking clearly at the point and it wouldn't have worked but honestly a army who had already lost that many people would most likely have already broken and tried to flee if there was anywhere to flee to.

Anyway they didn't even try to reduce the number of causalities. That they had an initial cause to fight them doesn't automatically justify everything they do afterwards. And if you outclass your enemy by so much then I would consider not even trying to get the enemy to surrender after the strength difference is clear you aren't particularily humantiarian.

[HamHam]

Uh... not to get too political but how is "no, the soldiers did nothing wrong. they did their best to protect the people" nationalistic?
I mean, not that political debate isn't the high point of every entertainment *cough* but I thought the episode was okay.

When you create a strawman that obvious so you can tear it down it basically leaves no nuance to your position. Which is problematic because in real life things are never as neat and tidy as the scenario you have created.

[Kato]

When you create a strawman that obvious so you can tear it down it basically leaves no nuance to your position. Which is problematic because in real life things are never as neat and tidy as the scenario you have created.

Admittedly, the agenda of the character seemed pretty... pointless but I still don't see how it makes the show nationalistic? I mean, yes, the view of the creators is clearly "yeah, Japan/SDF would be able to handle such a situation" but that's not yet nationalist in my opinion.

[HamHam]

Admittedly, the agenda of the character seemed pretty... pointless but I still don't see how it makes the show nationalistic? I mean, yes, the view of the creators is clearly "yeah, Japan/SDF would be able to handle such a situation" but that's not yet nationalist in my opinion.

Jingoism is probably the more accurate term, but jingoism and nationalism go hand in hand more often than not so I'm not sure the distinction is important.

Certainly the earlier asides to show the US and China being greedy and stuff were nationalist.

[GloatingSwine]

The whole setup to the last episode was ridiculous. You have a treaty - hold up the treaty for the knights to read. They don't believe you, offer to return to the city and talk to their commander. Don't tell your troops to run away and leave you alone unsupervised with knights of unknown origin who may just kill you or otherwise create an even worse incident than the confrontation already was.

When it became clear that they weren't going to back down his other option was literally "kill all of these people, possibly at the expense of my own life".

He surrendered to spare every single one of those knights' lives, because they didn't know what they were getting into (and presumably because having met their commander he trusted that they wouldn't summarily execute him, not unreasonably given that hostage taking of enemy command/nobility was common practice in the real world in equivalent eras and hostages had value and didn't tend to get killed).

Take the attack against the city when they mow down everyone in the inner court. At that point they had demonstrated their superiority, their enemies were without a chance and had seen enough to know they had no chance. They could have commanded them to surrender, maybe the attackers weren't thinking clearly at the point and it wouldn't have worked but honestly a army who had already lost that many people would most likely have already broken and tried to flee if there was anywhere to flee to.

They're a military. If you're an enemy combatant then a military force is not obliged to politely ask you to stop, and in that scene the aggressor force was mere tens of feet away from the civilian militia, so if they had asked them to surrender (bearing in mind they have limited ability to speak their language at all) then they could simply have rushed the civilians and made themselves an impossible target.

The enemy force had not surrendered and made no motions to try, and they were still an active threat to allied forces, it was a good shoot.

When you create a strawman that obvious so you can tear it down it basically leaves no nuance to your position. Which is problematic because in real life things are never as neat and tidy as the scenario you have created.

That character is literally the stock political opponent in every milfic ever. Seriously, you could place that exact character in hundreds of milfic books, SFF or not, and they wouldn't be a millimetre out of place. This scene happens, and will happen, as long as milfic exists.

It's not evidence of nationalism or jingoism in the text (which could be a hell of a lot worse, considering the actual nature and defence limited role of the JSDF).

Though there is a bit of a variation, the stock political opponent is usually either the denier or the appeaser, the denier won't believe that the Threat Is Real and that the hero mans military is doing the right thing when it napalms the villages (or doesn't believe that the threat will come at all, like the Turian Councillor in Mass Effect 2 who doesn't believe in Reapers despite the fact that a mile long starship curled over its noodly appendages and gave him the finger personally when it drove past only two years back) or the appeaser who thinks that the enemies could be swell people if only we were willing to give in to a few reasonable demands (may also be the quisling who wants to surrender.)

[Kato]

Jingoism is probably the more accurate term, but jingoism and nationalism go hand in hand more often than not so I'm not sure the distinction is important.

Certainly the earlier asides to show the US and China being greedy and stuff were nationalist.

Again, how was the court room scene jingoist? Though, I guess I can't recall what the woman's backstory was and if she was some American/Chinese agent I could possibly see hints of it. But honestly, I think you're wrong if you read a (strong) nationalist agenda into the show, I'm going to assume based on it praising the SDF. Not everything that values the work of soldiers is necessarily nationalist.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Jingoism: Aggressive military fervour in foreign policy or an obsession with rating one's own nation above others.

Nationalism: A system of belief where association with a sovereign state is the dominant form of personal identity. In cases where a sovereign state correlating with such an identity is not diplomatically recognised then nationalism is a revolutionary ideology that aims at gaining that recognition. Nationalism is not an extremist ideology in the modern world, if you're not a Communist, Anarchist, Campanilist or Federalist you're probably a nationalist and excepting Anarchism those ideologies usually incorporate some compromise with nationalism anyway.

Militarism: A belief that a nation needs a strong army and should be prepared to use it or a strong level of involvement of the military in national culture. This is against the constitution of Japan but is probably what you actually mean.

Patriotism: Pride in one's nation.

Chauvinism: Being prepared to die for one's nation or just refusing to give up a belief without dying in general.

Imperialism: Use of a one nation's military or economy in order to gain a dominant status over other nations or increase national territory. This is also probably what's actually meant.

Just so people aren't throwing around terms in vague ways that aren't what those words are supposed to actually mean. But due to the board rules this topic should probably be dropped.

[endoperez]

Chauvinism: Being prepared to die for one's nation or just refusing to give up a belief without dying in general.

Thanks, I had never come across the non-gender usage of this word before!

[Ibrinar]

Thanks, I had never come across the non-gender usage of this word before!

I would go with the wikipedia definition or one from a dictionary, I don't think Closet_Skeleton description captures it very well. Yes that level of devotion could be from chauvinism but dying for your nation or ideas could also just be bravery.